Talk:Papakolea Beach

Green sand in space

What does green sand in space have to do with a beach in Hawaii? This section needs to be moved to some more generic "green sand" article. --32.97.110.142 (talk) 21:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This has nothing to do with Mahana Beach.Rolinator (talk) 23:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I added it in simply because I thought it would be an interesting jumping-off point for further expansion. While I agree it's a bit of a stretch, it's interesting to note that the article cited explicitely compares the sand from the comet with the beach in Hawaiʻi. --jonny-mt 01:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

And it works great. The problem is, we have to write for the lowest common denominator, otherwise we will continue to get confused readers coming here arguing it should be removed. I don't know why they think that way, but to avoid it in the future all we have to do is broaden the scope of the section to include an overview of the geographical and geological history of the beach, expanding (or merging) information about how small particles consolidate to form a littoral cone, the development of the beach, and comparing this to extraterrestrial formations like the NASA article. But, don't remove anything. —Viriditas | Talk 02:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope. The space stuff is way off-topic and has nothing to do with the beach. Removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.93.151.53 (talk) 10:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Article name

Why was the article changed from Green Sand Beach to Mahana Beach? The two most common names in use are Green Sand Beach and Papakolea Beach. —Viriditas | Talk 12:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm glad you brought that question up. I was looking for the proper Hawaiian term to refer to the place, as I thought "Green Sand Beach" was too generic for an article name (after all, there's another one in Guam and probably more elsewhere in the world; seems that would make a better disambiguation page). When looking for information, I started with "Mahana Beach" (as that was the alternate name given in the existing article) and also searched under "Green Sands Beach", "Puʻu Mahana", "Papakolea Beach", and any other terms that came up as I went along. Needless to say it soon became apparent that there seems to be some confusion as to the proper name; I found a source referring to the surrounding grasslands as Papakolea, and Puʻu Mahana (or Puʻu o Mahana) appears to be the proper name for the cinder cone rather than the beach itself. You, a native of Hawaiʻi, are saying Papakolea, my girlfriend (born and raised on the Big Island) tells me Puʻu Mahana, and sources elsewhere give conflicting names, even within USGS articles. Suffice to say I'm kicking myself for not taking a picture of the sign on the beach when I had the chance.

So to make an already long story short, I made an educated guess and settled on Mahana Beach in part because Mahana Bay is the name of the body of water surrounded by the cinder cone (GMaps link) and because it seemed to have the highest frequency of relative sources—in the event that I was wrong, I figured that it would eventually be hammered out by the collaborative process. Now that you've brought it up and I've taken another look around, I suspect you are correct and Papakolea Beach may be the way to go. While I wouldn't exactly be upset if you went ahead and moved it, if it's all right I'd like a little time (about 10 hours or so) to double-check to see if there wasn't a more compelling reason for my choosing the current name.

Incidentally, I've submitted the article to WP:DYK (listing you as an additional contributor), so I definitely have an interest in settling this question :) Thanks! --jonny-mt 04:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I had planned on visiting the library in Hawaii today to settle this question, but I didn't get a chance, so I'll try tomorrow. As far as I can tell, the bay is called Mahana, while the beach is commonly referred to as Green Sand(s) and Papakolea. I agree that we don't have to hurry on this, and we should let the facts weigh in on their own. You should be aware that we don't usually go with the USGS on these matters; for example, they tend to refer to Haleakala as the "East Maui Volcano"; nobody uses that name except for them. So per naming conventions, we go with the most accurate, but common name. I haven't decided if we need a dab page just yet, but it is something to keep in mind. BTW, thanks for giving me credit for the DYK, but that was unnecessary; you've done most of the work here; I'm just reviewing it. I think you'll have this up to GA-Class in no time if you stick with it. So, let's do some more research on the name and give it a bit more time. —Viriditas | Talk 04:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I've taken another look at the sources available, and it seems that Papakolea Beach is the way to go. A lot of sources I found use the term "Papakolea Green Sand(s) Beach", but given the lack of consistency I suspect the "green sands" part is an adjectival clause put in there for the benefit of haʻole like me. Most notably, I found this article from Aloha Airlines referring to it as "Papakōlea Green Sands Beach" in the header and "Papakōlea Beach" in the body. As far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy with a move to "Papakōlea Beach" and a redirect from the variations, but if you want to go check out the name in the library I'm more than happy to wait.

In the meantime, I'll continue editing the article using the current name for consistency--that'll make it fairly easy to go back and change everything in one fell swoop when the move is made. As an added note, I actually managed to find a picture of the nameplate as well ([1]); I thought there was an M on that thing, but it seems it only holds up one of my claims :). --jonny-mt 14:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I made it to the library today, but only for fifteen minutes. However, in that brief space of time, I was able to reach a number of preliminary conclusions: First, we can pretty much establish that the beach is not called Puʻu Mahana. That name refers directly to the cinder cone in Kau, Hawaii; the green sand beach is formed from the cone and its lava. So we can eliminate one of four choices and concentrate on the remaining three. To do so, I would like to start by bringing sources into this, starting with John R. K. Clark. University of Hawaii Press published Clark's Beaches of the Big Island in 1985 (ISBN 0824809769), but it does not appear to have been revised since then. Instead, Clark has gone on to revise and publish other works in that series since 1985 (I'm assuming he will get to this one eventually). One of the more recent publications in that series is Hawaii Place Names: Shores, Beaches, and Surf Sites (2002; ISBN 0824824512), which I have in front of me. The book appears to be a compendium of previous research, but has expanded considerably based on Clark's inclusion of new research consisting of oral and written cultural information from surfers, Native Hawaiians, reference books, newspapers, and maps. The book categorizes "Green Sand" as both a beach and a surf site in South Point, Hawaii, and describes it in more detail than the two alternate names, treating it as the most common name, but it does say "also known as Mahana". (Clark 2002, p. 83) The "Mahana" listing is less detailed, and is only categorized as a beach in Kahuku, Hawaii, which is not the Kahuku in Oahu, but rather Kahuku on the Big Island, which I assume is a reference to the recently acquired Kahuku Ranch section of Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. The entry for Mahana states, "also known as Green Sand Beach". Now, the entry for Papakolea describes it as a beach in Ka'u Hawaii, with the entry "area name that has been used as a Hawaiian name for Green Sand Beach". So Clark basically establishes that "Green Sand Beach" is the most common name. But, why did he use three different locations for the beach? The simplest explanation is that this is a mistake of some kind, and that suffices for our purposes, but looking into this further, I discovered that there is more than one "Green Sand Beach" on the Big Island, but they are all in the general vicinity.[2][3] Finally, many of the best guide books refer to this as "Green Sand(s) Beach",[4][5][6] as does the University of Hawaii.[7] While I would personally choose to use the Hawaiian name, I don't see any evidence that it has a preferred use over the common name, as is the case in many other place names. Let's give this some more time and do some additional research. —Viriditas | Talk 09:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow; that's a lot of fantastic work. I haven't had a chance to go back over all of it yet (and I suspect I won't for a day or so), so I'll wait until I have to make any specific comments. However, it is worth noting that in addition to the one in Guam([8]), there is also at least one green sand beach in the Galapagos Islands ([9], [10]), which raises accuracy concerns under WP:NAME. --jonny-mt 03:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good argument to use Papakolea instead of Green Sand(s) Beach. BTW, the famous surf and dive map maker Franko uses "Papakolea" (bottom center). We could disambiguate the place name with Green Sands Beach (Hawaii), but Papakolea would probably be a better choice. National Geophysical Data Center refers to as "Papakolea Beach (Green Sand Beach)"[11]. Since we already have an article on Punaluu Black Sand Beach, I wonder if we should just call it Papakolea Green Sand Beach. —Viriditas | Talk 11:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sorry to take so long getting back. I really like your suggestion--I even typed up a paragraph or two on how much I like it. Unfortunately, I gave WP:NAME one last read through and noticed it stipulates that, in addition to being named for accuracy and readability, articles should also be easy to link to. In addition to the inevitable capitalization issues, with a name that long, I would expect a fairly high incidence of linking to the redirects rather than the article itself.

So given that "Green Sand Beach" seems to have accuracy and length issues, "Puʻu Mahana" is the incorrect name, and "Mahana Beach" is only used sporadically (and confusingly), I think the only name we're left with is "Pahpakolea Beach". I'd like to go ahead and move the article, but since you've been such a huge help in figuring this out so I want to hear your opinion before I do. --jonny-mt 12:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a strict interpretation, but it's one I happen to agree with. :) I hope you continue to expand and improve this article. How about looking into the name of Punaluu Black Sand Beach and moving that if necessary? Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 23:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved Punaluu after consulting Clark's book. —Viriditas | Talk 03:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe they call that "killing two birds with one stone" :) Thanks again for all your help figuring this out! Now that that's settled, it's time to shoot for that GA.... --jonny-mt 03:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

GA-Class should be fairly easy for you, but I don't know if there is enough information for FA. That's my only concern. The reason I bring it up, is because a FA-Class article under your belt will look really good when you run for admin. :) —Viriditas | Talk 03:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone's been looking at my contributions :) I plan on revisiting this article in a couple of days to do some minor rewrites and add some of the new sources you picked up. I agree that this probably can't be FA, but something I really enjoy about Hawaiʻi-related articles is that each one serves as a jumping off point for writing new ones. I have no intention of leaving this one to flounder, but I have a few ideas for some new items.... --jonny-mt 14:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)