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Latest comment: 2 years ago12 comments5 people in discussion
@Sevey13: Regardless of what the source says, "Paperboy Prince" is not a pronoun. It is a noun. "God" and "Goddess" are also nouns, not pronouns. "Paperboy Prince" is clearly the subject's name, while "God" and "Goddess" are preferred nicknames. Yes, in an off-hand parenthetical (preferred pronouns: God/Goddess, Paperboy Prince, they/them), the source calls these pronouns but that can be interpreted as shorthand because these literally are not and cannot be pronouns. Elli (talk | contribs) 21:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
The New Yorker article says "The nonbinary rapper (preferred pronouns: God/Goddess, Paperboy Prince, they/them)" while the BK Reader article says "...Paperboy Prince, who identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns, told BK Reader." I think in this case, we can say that "God" and "Goddess" are pronouns, as are they/them for Paperboy Prince. That's my reading of the article and recognizing that Neopronouns exist, like "Noun-self pronouns" as is the case here. We should respect the pronouns of any individual even if they are neopronouns. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
I hear, understand, and respect your opinion. This is not an opinion matter, though, it’s a question of following the manual of style, and of respecting trans/nonbinary people, who use language as a tool of survival. Whatever you or I might think of the words “god” or “goddess” as pronouns do not matter when it comes to an encyclopedia entry. The point of the wiki is to record the information that’s out there. In this case, the information that’s out there is that Paperboy Prince includes words like “god/goddess” on their list of pronouns.
Here are some resources to help:
https://www.glsen.org/activity/pronouns-guide-glsen “Pronouns are the words you may like others to use for you in place of your proper name. Some examples include “she/her” or “he/him” or gender-neutral pronouns, such as “ze/hir,” [pronounced: zee/heer] or “they/them”. Some people use specific pronouns, any pronouns, or none at all.”
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq “Language changes. Some of the terms now in common usage are different from those used in the past to describe similar ideas, identities and experiences. Some people may continue to use terms that are less commonly used now to describe themselves, and some people may use different terms entirely. What's important is recognizing and respecting people as individuals.”
https://radicalcopyeditor.com/2017/08/31/transgender-style-guide/ “Note that although many non-binary people go by they/them/theirs, many others go by different pronouns (see 2.4.1). If a non-binary person goes by ze/zir/zirs, for example, referring to zir using they/them/theirs is still an act of mispronouning. Note also that binary people’s potential discomfort with new word usage must not take priority over the pain non-binary people experience when we are mispronouned and/or misgendered.”
Here are some on-Wiki resources (note not all refer specifically to pronouns, but around expectations of editors when making edits related to gender identity broadly):
This talk page includes an info box with this exact quote: “ Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.”
These resources demonstrate what I’ve said, that this isn’t an opinion matter. It’s about keeping consistent with the manual of style across the wiki, and across the journalistic sphere, and it’s about respecting a person’s identity, whether you agree with it or not, whether you believe that person’s identity is grammatically correct or not.
Note that the musician Prince once created an entirely new symbol to stand in for his name. Just because that symbol did not exist prior to his usage and did not stand for anything really in the English language, it was still his name for that period of time.
@Sevey13: This is not a dispute I have with the manual of style. It's one I have with your use of a source. The source claims that Paperboy Prince uses the pronouns "God/Goddess", but it also claims they use the pronouns "Paperboy Prince", which is obviously, unambiguously, not a pronoun, because it is their name. Given that said source listed something which we should all be able to agree is not a pronoun as a pronoun, I do not think we should be so quick to read from it that "God/Goddess" is also a pronoun, instead of a nickname. For what it's worth, I've checked Paperboy Prince's social media and website and I cannot find them noting "God/Goddess" pronouns anywhere. Their Twitter bio does not mention any pronouns, and their Instagram lists only "they/them". Given this, I think including God/Goddess as their pronouns is dubious -- it's cited to one source, without anything I can confirm on the subject's end, and that source in the same phrase listed something else which we agree is not a pronoun. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Sevey13: OK, I searched for more sources and I'm willing to concede this (for example this and this list their pronouns as "they/them" and "God/Goddess"). I still think that they do not use "Paperboy Prince" as a pronoun since it's objectively not, and no other source has claimed as such, so I'm going to remove that as one of their listed pronouns. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:19, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hi Elli, this feels a bit like arguing for "truth over verifiability". We have a reliable source that clearly lists three pronouns, and it's up to us to summarize it without editorializing it. And just a note that Instagram has a fixed set of pronouns users can select from.Politanvmtalk23:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
"Truth over verifiability" does not preclude the use of common sense, which is that Paperboy Prince is not and cannot be a pronoun because it is the subject's name. One source listing it as such is likely a mistake, not an indication of the subject's preferences. If you can find me a single other source about the subject that considers "Paperboy Prince" to be one of their pronouns (as I found for the God/Goddess pronouns), I will be impressed. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) Not quite sure what your point is here. If it's that we report in the body of the article what their pronouns are, then I'm fully supportive. If it's that an individual uses a neopronoun, and therefore we must use their neopronouns in the running text of the article body, then you are misreading the MoS; we should not use neopronouns in the article. (See Use–mention distinction.) That's pretty much my central point, and since the current state of the article mostly avoids pronouns it looks fine to me.
Note: there is a related, but different point, that the two of you may agree on: if there is agreement that the article should generally avoid the use of pronouns as is currently the case (in favor of rewording, or just using "Prince" and so on), then we should place the {{Article pronouns}} template on this page with the param value avoid (alias: no pronouns) to indicate this. For other articles like this, see Category:Articles tagged for avoiding gendered pronoun usage. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
I don't think there is any dispute about whether the article should use they/them pronouns given that they're the subject's most clearly preferred pronouns. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
