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2013
editHello, I see that this article has correctly been created out of confusion between Parsons Paris and the Paris College of Art. However, I do not understand the purpose for the added "(2013)" to the title. The Paris College of Art and Parsons Paris are henceforth no way affiliated with each other. Similarly, the link to their wiki page is being ambiguously redirected from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsons_Paris Can this be fixed? Thank you. Mickey Lukens 21:00, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- The date of 2013 is used to distinguish the new institution from the old. The redirect goes to the existing institution, as it is clearly the better known of the two (indeed, the new place doesn't even exist yet); there is a hatnote on the PCA article clarifying which of the two the article is about, with a link to the other article. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Hello Mike, thank you for your prompt response to our queries. Please note that Parsons Paris is not a new institution as you claim -- it was established in 1921 by Parsons The New School for Design (then known as the New York School of Fine and Applied Art), and has operated in various forms throughout the years. From 1986 until 2010, Parsons The New School for Design established a French Association to operate a school. That association is no longer associated with Parsons The New School for Design and is an independent institution called Paris College of Art. Paris College of Art affirms this history and, if you look at their website, you will see this is the case: http://www.paris.edu/pages/detail/807/History.
Therefore, we would like to request the following:
- Parsons Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsons_Paris) should be a page about Parsons Paris, and not a page for PCA. The content we have provided for the 2013 page should live on this page.
- The history of Parsons Paris should live on the Parsons_Paris page, and not on the Paris College of Art page (except for their affiliation to Parsons from 1986-2010).
- Parsons Paris School of Art and Design -- in English and French -- should be a redirect to the Parsons Paris Wikipedia page -- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsons_Paris) -- we can create a French Wikipedia page for Parsons Paris.
- Paris College of Art wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_College_of_Art) should only feature the history of PCA -- so the section about Parsons Paris history prior to 1986 should be removed. Furthermore, it incorrectly claims a few of our alumni: Tom Ford, Lazaro Hernandez, Patrick Robinson, and Claire McCardell -- they may have studied in Paris for a semester, but they are graduates of Parsons in New York and these should not be on their page. We attempted to correct this and an unregistered editor deleted our changes. Mickey Lukens 13:50, 7 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickeyallen (talk • contribs)
Hello Mike. I am still waiting on your response to the comments and requests above. Meanwhile, I'd like to go ahead and attempt to resolve some of the flagged features of this article. To begin, what particularly stands out as advertisement language? Also, what external links seem to be inappropriate? Mickey Lukens 16:08, 18 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickeyallen (talk • contribs)
New college has no connection to the old, apart from the name
editThe independent published sources (e.g. Telegraph.co.uk) say that the old Parsons Paris in 2010 became "an independent entity and is now known as Paris College of Art and has no association with Parsons". The New York Times says "In 2010, the former licensee changed its name to the Paris College of Art, and the New School was free to return to Paris under the Parsons name" - which clearly says to me that the old Parsons Paris changed its name to Paris College of Art and disassociated itself with the New York College. The news sources say Parsons New York are opening up a new presence in Paris, called Parsons Paris (a name now vacated by the old institution). The new college is clearly different from the 1921 college and you shouldn't be claiming the previous heritage unless you have reliable independent proof to the contrary. Sionk (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Sionk and User:Mdebellis. Due to all the back and forth on this issue, I think there is a lot of confusion now about our history in Paris, and I wanted to bring this conversation here from the Teahouse to once again try to clarify the facts for you, as well as provide documentation.
- Parsons The New School for Design was founded in 1896 -- please see our history here: http://www.newschool.edu/parsons/history/ -- and in 1921, our director, Frank Alvah Parsons, founded a campus in Paris. Please see the link here to our first catalog, when Parsons was known as the School of Fine and Applied Art (see our history for more details on this): http://dmc.newschool.edu:8180/luna/servlet/s/1m8i32 (Page n7, page 5 of the actual catalog).
- Parsons Paris has had several manifestations since Parsons first founded our campus in Paris in 1921. Including presences from 1921 through the start of World War II, and then programs from 1948 through the 1980s. Please note that in 1986 until 2010, Parsons established a French association to operate our school. During that time frame, students at the school were receiving degrees from our university, The New School, and the school was called Parsons Paris.
- The association that operated Parsons Paris from 1986 until 2010 is no longer affiliated with Parsons The New School for Design and now operates an independent institution called Paris College of Art. Please see this history confirmed by Paris College of Art on their website: http://www.paris.edu/pages/detail/807/History. Our counterpart at PCA will attest to this (she observes the PCA wikipedia page), and has informed us she reached out to User:Orangemike several times to have this corrected.
Therefore:
- There should be a Parsons Paris page with our history from 1921 until the present with the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsons_Paris. Currently that URL redirects to PCA, which is very confusing and inaccurate since PCA is not affiliated with Parsons.
- It does not make sense to have a Parsons Paris 2013, but if you insist, that is fine as long as both are linked, and that the main Parsons Paris page has the full history from 1921 onward.
- As per the documentation I have provided to you, the association that now runs PCA operated Parsons Paris from 1986 until 2010, and they do not claim our history prior to that date, as it was very different programs, operated directly by Parsons, that were offered prior to that date. Please note that PCA has removed the rest of the history from their page, and now has the appropriate references. mickeyallen 16:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi MickyAllen. Thanks for leaving me the message. I want to start by saying I'm just a new editor and usually don't get involved in these kinds of questions so don't take anything I say as definitive. Sionk has more experience and I will defer to him or her if they disagree with anything I'm about to say. With that in mind: Right now I can see both sides of the argument. I'm going to paraphrase to make sure I'm getting this right: Paris College of Art used to be called Parson's Paris but it no longer is and the organization that used to support Paris College of Art (when it was Parson's Paris) now supports the new school called Parson's Paris which currently has an article named Parsons Paris 2010. If I have that right I can see why you think its confusing to still call Paris College of Art Parson's Paris rather than just using that name for Parsons Paris. The people editing that article don't seem too attached to the name, it says right in the intro that they are no longer affiliated with it. On the other hand you could make a case that the name belongs to the school, not the organization that runs it and since that school was originally called that they have a legitimate right to it. I didn't see any discussion of this on the Talk page of Paris School of Art, in fact there is nothing in their talk page at all. I would suggest you leave a message on their talk page and see if anyone objects to the name change. If not, it seems to me that such a change might be reasonable. Perhaps also add another link for "Parsons Paris 1986" that points to Paris College of Art. BTW, one more issue is that Sionk used refs from the Telegraph and NY Times and you are using refs from the school web site. The newspaper refs are far more credible, external independent references are highly prefered to material about the subject of an article that is essentially published by that subject. MadScientistX11 (talk) 15:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I googled "Parsons Paris" and looked at both web sites. I think MickyAllen may have a point. It seems to me the issue is that one school currently uses "Parsons Paris" in their name and one doesn't. It seems to me the obvious answer that the article that should be named Parsons Paris now would be the school that is using the name now. If there were some dispute about using the name that would be a different issue but there doesn't seem to be. MadScientistX11 (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea of creating a redirect called "Parsons Paris (1986)", targetted to Paris College of Art sounds like a good idea. The New York Times makes it clear there have been various licensing agreements since 1970 which have associated Parsons New York with Paris colleges (New School for Social Research, Paris College of Art) which have taken the Parsons name. This, I think, needs to be explained more fully in the Parsons The New School for Design article. The 2013 campus seems to be a change of direction by the New York institution (to a more direct control?) and I'm intrigued by the New York Times claim it is both the "oldest and newest" overseas American college. That may be reason enough for the new campus to justly claim some of the pre-1970 history as its own. I still think this article should be called "Parsons Paris (2013)", to save further confusion (for example, graduates of Parsons Paris between 1986 and 2010 are claimed by Paris College of Art). Sionk (talk) 20:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just wanted to document I'm going to follow up on this. Mickeyallen, it might be a good idea for you to create a user page and talk page, or if you want I think I can do that for you I just didn't want to presume. I tried leaving you a message directly before writing this. I agree with all of Sionk's ideas above and I have some time, not doing any other wikipedia things now anyway, so will start to follow up. I only spend a little time doing Wikipedia stuff every day so if others with more time want to pick this up I'm fine with that but I'm going to start doing some things like leave a message on the other school's talk page for a start. Actually, from the answer, it wasn't clear if Sionk now like me is in agreement about the basic issue of the name change but I think the first step is to see if any other editors mind the change that effect the other school. Mickeyalllen, I think in some sense the actual file name isn't that important, that's why there wasn't an immediate affirmative answer. But I've also worked in the real world on web sites and I know how professional developers want to make things as absolutely clear and unambiguous as they can. I guess what I'm saying is as I thought it over and put myself in your shoes, if I was responsible for branding Parsons Paris it would matter to me.MadScientistX11 (talk) 11:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- Glad to hear you've got time to look at this. I would strongly suggest Parsons Paris is redirected to Parsons The New School for Design#Parsons Paris and most of the historical information currently on Parsons Paris (2013) is moved to the article about the parent college. It would save confusion. There have been several Parsons Paris's. Sionk (talk) 12:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I deeply appreciate the time and attention User:Mdebellis (as well as all the editors) have given to clearing up the confusion surrounding these institutions. As a new Wikipedia contributor, I am learning as I go and want to abide by the rules and vision of Wikipedia. I have read over the recent comments here and on PCA and I want to call further attention to the proposed redirect, and the “license” that The New School and PCA had between them concerning Parsons Paris. Between 1986 and 2010, the relationship that the two institutions had were co-dependent. Both The New School and PCA had equal claim to the name “Parsons Paris.” A Parsons Paris (1986) redirect to PCA seems to say PCA had ownership of the name during that time, which is inaccurate. Even during that time, The New School was the institution bestowing the degrees, not PCA. A user searching for “Parsons Paris” of that period should just be directed to Parsons The New School for Design#ParsonsParis where there would be a link to Paris College of Art included in the description. There are a lot of confusing but essential points to follow here. Please let me know if you'd like me to expand or clarify any point made throughout this dialogue. Thank you.Mickeyallen (talk) 17:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've re-directed the Parsons Paris redirect. It will make sense to add a bit more information about Parsons' presence in Paris in the Parsons The New School for Design article. As for the Paris College of Art, if they were called “Parsons Paris” between 1986 and 2010 then that's what they were called. It's been made quite clear here and on their article that they are no longer known by that name. Sionk (talk) 20:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- I deeply appreciate the time and attention User:Mdebellis (as well as all the editors) have given to clearing up the confusion surrounding these institutions. As a new Wikipedia contributor, I am learning as I go and want to abide by the rules and vision of Wikipedia. I have read over the recent comments here and on PCA and I want to call further attention to the proposed redirect, and the “license” that The New School and PCA had between them concerning Parsons Paris. Between 1986 and 2010, the relationship that the two institutions had were co-dependent. Both The New School and PCA had equal claim to the name “Parsons Paris.” A Parsons Paris (1986) redirect to PCA seems to say PCA had ownership of the name during that time, which is inaccurate. Even during that time, The New School was the institution bestowing the degrees, not PCA. A user searching for “Parsons Paris” of that period should just be directed to Parsons The New School for Design#ParsonsParis where there would be a link to Paris College of Art included in the description. There are a lot of confusing but essential points to follow here. Please let me know if you'd like me to expand or clarify any point made throughout this dialogue. Thank you.Mickeyallen (talk) 17:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- Glad to hear you've got time to look at this. I would strongly suggest Parsons Paris is redirected to Parsons The New School for Design#Parsons Paris and most of the historical information currently on Parsons Paris (2013) is moved to the article about the parent college. It would save confusion. There have been several Parsons Paris's. Sionk (talk) 12:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just wanted to document I'm going to follow up on this. Mickeyallen, it might be a good idea for you to create a user page and talk page, or if you want I think I can do that for you I just didn't want to presume. I tried leaving you a message directly before writing this. I agree with all of Sionk's ideas above and I have some time, not doing any other wikipedia things now anyway, so will start to follow up. I only spend a little time doing Wikipedia stuff every day so if others with more time want to pick this up I'm fine with that but I'm going to start doing some things like leave a message on the other school's talk page for a start. Actually, from the answer, it wasn't clear if Sionk now like me is in agreement about the basic issue of the name change but I think the first step is to see if any other editors mind the change that effect the other school. Mickeyalllen, I think in some sense the actual file name isn't that important, that's why there wasn't an immediate affirmative answer. But I've also worked in the real world on web sites and I know how professional developers want to make things as absolutely clear and unambiguous as they can. I guess what I'm saying is as I thought it over and put myself in your shoes, if I was responsible for branding Parsons Paris it would matter to me.MadScientistX11 (talk) 11:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea of creating a redirect called "Parsons Paris (1986)", targetted to Paris College of Art sounds like a good idea. The New York Times makes it clear there have been various licensing agreements since 1970 which have associated Parsons New York with Paris colleges (New School for Social Research, Paris College of Art) which have taken the Parsons name. This, I think, needs to be explained more fully in the Parsons The New School for Design article. The 2013 campus seems to be a change of direction by the New York institution (to a more direct control?) and I'm intrigued by the New York Times claim it is both the "oldest and newest" overseas American college. That may be reason enough for the new campus to justly claim some of the pre-1970 history as its own. I still think this article should be called "Parsons Paris (2013)", to save further confusion (for example, graduates of Parsons Paris between 1986 and 2010 are claimed by Paris College of Art). Sionk (talk) 20:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- I googled "Parsons Paris" and looked at both web sites. I think MickyAllen may have a point. It seems to me the issue is that one school currently uses "Parsons Paris" in their name and one doesn't. It seems to me the obvious answer that the article that should be named Parsons Paris now would be the school that is using the name now. If there were some dispute about using the name that would be a different issue but there doesn't seem to be. MadScientistX11 (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi MickyAllen. Thanks for leaving me the message. I want to start by saying I'm just a new editor and usually don't get involved in these kinds of questions so don't take anything I say as definitive. Sionk has more experience and I will defer to him or her if they disagree with anything I'm about to say. With that in mind: Right now I can see both sides of the argument. I'm going to paraphrase to make sure I'm getting this right: Paris College of Art used to be called Parson's Paris but it no longer is and the organization that used to support Paris College of Art (when it was Parson's Paris) now supports the new school called Parson's Paris which currently has an article named Parsons Paris 2010. If I have that right I can see why you think its confusing to still call Paris College of Art Parson's Paris rather than just using that name for Parsons Paris. The people editing that article don't seem too attached to the name, it says right in the intro that they are no longer affiliated with it. On the other hand you could make a case that the name belongs to the school, not the organization that runs it and since that school was originally called that they have a legitimate right to it. I didn't see any discussion of this on the Talk page of Paris School of Art, in fact there is nothing in their talk page at all. I would suggest you leave a message on their talk page and see if anyone objects to the name change. If not, it seems to me that such a change might be reasonable. Perhaps also add another link for "Parsons Paris 1986" that points to Paris College of Art. BTW, one more issue is that Sionk used refs from the Telegraph and NY Times and you are using refs from the school web site. The newspaper refs are far more credible, external independent references are highly prefered to material about the subject of an article that is essentially published by that subject. MadScientistX11 (talk) 15:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Creating a French Parsons Paris Wiki page
editThank you making that redirect. I would now like to create a French Wikipedia page similar to (the same?) as the page here. Do you have any advice on my going forward on this? Mickeyallen (talk) 15:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- The guidelines and procedure will be very similar to creating and editing the English Wikipedia except, obviously, you'll need to write in French. Sionk (talk) 20:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Updating and future tense
editMuch of the information in this article comes from before its opening, and the article still uses mostly the future tense. For example: "Parsons Paris will incorporate a faculty of French and European design educators as well as visiting professors from around the world. The school will offer a variety of bachelor’s and master’s degrees in design, fashion, and business. All classes will be taught in English." (Italics added.) There does not seem to be much independent information online about what has happened since. If you have any, it would be useful to add it. Phashionista (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Edit requested on October 12, 2016
edit | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Hello,
The title is misleading: Parsons Paris (2013) The school still exists and is a separate institution and is not affiliated with Paris College of Art anymore. Is it possible to remove the 2013 from the title, please? Another issue is, whenever someone types "Parsons Paris" in the search bar of wikipedia, they get redirected to the Paris College of Art page, which is inaccurate and can be misleading. Also, the logo used is outdated and also needs to be changed.
Thank you in advance.
- Read the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves, which will explain how to create a discussion for proposing the move from Parsons Paris (2013) to Parsons Paris. Since a page already exists at Parsons Paris (which as you noted, redirects to Paris College of Art), you will need the assistance of an administrator to move this page to the new title. Altamel (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Section move proposal
editThe history section of this page covers the history of Parsons in Paris in great detail, and not about the school established in 2013. The section amounts to almost half of the article (not including the references) and is much detailed compared to Parsons School of Design#Expansion and affiliations, which I believe is better suited as a place to describe the history of Parsons in Paris. Therefore, I propose a Section move of the history section to Parsons School of Design#Expansion and affiliations. The scheme is as follows
- The whole "History" section apart from the first sentence will be moved to Parsons School of Design#Expansion and affiliations, replacing its second paragraph.
- On Parsons School of Design#Expansion and affiliations, the "Parsons Paris" header will be removed and a new header "Paris" will be placed at the very top of the section, with Paris College of Art and Parsons Paris (2013) as the section's main articles.
- On Parsons Paris (2013), the section "New campus 2013" will be renamed to "History".
- The new "History" section will be given a "Background" subsection which will be a shortened version of the current "History" section, incorporating the current first sentence of the "History" section.
--YTRK (talk) 13:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Implemented.--YTRK (talk) 08:33, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 21 May 2020
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 14:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Parsons Paris (2013) → Parsons Paris – The page Parsons Paris is currently a redirect to this page. Therefore the "(2013)" is unnecessary. If, for one reason or another, someone proposes changing the page Parsons Paris into a disambiguation page or a redirect to somewhere else, that is also fine by me. YTRK (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support, unnecessary disambiguation. JIP | Talk 14:56, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.