Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 12

No mention of Aryan ancestory?

U know I went to the history section and there is no mention how the ancestors of the Pashtuns are Aryan people...I mean it says that they were invaded by Aryans which is a joke because they are also of Aryan heritage....BEing Pashtun is not a race...Its an ethnic group...and most of the Ethnic groups (Balochis, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris, Rajasthanis, etc etc all come from Aryan heritage. 71.119.248.15 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If you cite Reliable sources we can gladly add information, cheers. Lakers 01:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have always been told that the Pashtuns are one of the non-Aryan races of the subcontinent. I have never heard them described as descendants of Aryans. Now, most of India was conquered by the Aryans but I doubt there conquests reached as far north as the Pashtun regions. Especially Afghanistan. But don't quote me on that last part. TaylorSAllen 01:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Pashtuns aren't Indian, but part of the Iranian peoples and thus there is a distinction here. They are partial descendents of the Aryans though yes. Tombseye 16:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

But so many authors have been indicating many larger Pashtun tribes of Indian origin, anyways all of them were Aryans, if we take it as one theory of origin. Haider 22:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

No Tombseye, Pashtuns are not of "partial" Aryan descent. They are "HEAVILY" if not "COMPLETELY" of Aryan descent. Afghan Historian 16:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Aryan descent is itself next to impossible to define. In fact, if the Aryans came from the Ukraine or Central Asia, the genetic linkages would reveal direct relations of that sort whereas areas where Aryan languages are spoken widely vary. Thus, there is no discernable way to determine "Aryan" descent at all. If this were possible, we would see for example Indo-Aryans being genetically and phenotypically identical to, say Ossetians or even some Ukrainians. Pashtuns ARE partial descendents who mixed with local groups and invaders over time, but more than likely the local pagan groups around them who populated the areas from Gilgit to Central Iran as well as large swathes of southern Central Asia are the people the Pashtuns are closest to. Attempting to define these people as heavily or completely of Aryan descent is simply neither feasible or possible to quantify since all that is known is that this was a branch of the Indo-Europeans who bequethed their languages upon various populations. Unfortunately, European imperialism, specifically that of the British, wrongly attributed racial attributes to the Aryans, which some interpret as linked to language as well (thus if you speak an Aryan language you are an "Aryan"). the Aryans are long since gone and attempting a modern linkage to them by claiming descent solely or primarily from them is simply not tenable. Who they were is largely guesswork. The Pashtuns are simply put an Iranian people through their language and degree of greatest similarities that link them to the other Iranians and Burosho etc. The best guesswork thus means that they are more than likely as i said partial descendents of the Aryans and this varies from the weakest linkages further east to the more likely descent amongst the Ossetians who live the closest to where the Aryans probably originated. Tombseye 15:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

that definition of aryan is "white man's burden" era european trash.

Vandalism

The caption on one of the pictures reads "You're lying if you say you wouldn't hit it." I don't know how to revert it or else I would. RoyRedersn17 02:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It's already been reverted, and the vandal has been given a block. Don't know the length. And for the record, I sure hope he wasn't referring to me when he said what he said. Really I wonder how these kind of people think that their edits will stay up for longer than a few minutes, as most of them get reverted before then. --LuigiManiac 02:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

is there reaon for quoting vandalism verbatim on the talk page? It makes the offending content stay on wikipedia longer, if not indefinitely. I want to remove your above comments. --345Kai 19:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

So that the above does not look weird to anyone else, I quoted vandalism and after reading the comment directly above me, realized I shouldn't have quoted it. I took it out, so that the only remaining trace of it is in the page history. --LuigiManiac 20:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Figure of Pashtuns In India

13,000 is the figure of Afghan refugees in India; the actual number of people in India of Pashtun lineage goes much higher. Please correct the figure. --Marqus 03:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you come with a sourced figure , so we can add it to the article!

--Khanhamzakhan (talk) 04:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thr figure for india includes all afghans and not pashtuns per se, Hence I am removing the statistics. In any case there are probably just as many pashtuns in sweden. We cannot possibly list all the countríes where there are a few thousand pashtuns! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.224.122.126 (talk) 10:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Xenu?

Xenu has something to do with the Pashtuns?

No, but what do this Pathans have to do with us? WHERE IS CHAKAKHAN! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.243.218.198 (talk) 04:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Pashtun girl photo

Isn't that a copyrighted photo from the National Geographic? [1]

I'm not sure, but we may have to remove it. Please check it. ManosGR 04:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it - it was licensed only as fair use, that means it can only appear in the article about the magazine that publeshed it not in articles about the persons in the picture.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 04:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Figures may be wrong

The figures for the population of Pashtuns in various countries might be wrong. According to the source [2], it mentions Afghan refugees in India=13000, not Pashtuns in India = 13,000. Also Pathans in India were reknowned for being traders (the story of the Kabuliwala), and money-lenders in Mumbai. 05:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree.

1. not all Afghans are Pasthuns. So, not all of those 13,000 Afghans are Pasthuns.
2. to say that those refugess are the only Pasthun speakers in India beats common-sense.
3. just 13,000 Pasthuns in India?! I need a better source for that!

--Incman|वार्ता 05:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't many Pashtuns in India. The main group are Pathans who claim Pashtun descent, which is a distinction here. They have to be Pashto speakers to be Pashtuns. Tombseye 15:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

They were Pashtuns, but now they have forgotten their language, culture and heritage, I don't think, pashtuns in india are more than mentioned figures. Thanks. Haider 21:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There are no Pashtuns/Pakhtuns in India! this just another attempt by complexed Indians/Indian Muslims to show that they are what everyone else is because they dont want to be simply Indian. I pity them for this inherent complex but why this distortion of fact has been allowed on this page is truly puzzling and hurtful. The so called 'Pathans' in India are those Indians who were converted over to Islam and adopted the title 'Khan' or the surname of the ruler of their regions who were often Afghan/Pushtuns. Furthermore in India the Muslims have slowly reverted to their previous customs which involve the caste system and as such, many have simply concocted what are perceived as being 'better' lineages as Indians inherently admire anything foreign and use these concocted lineages as attempts to move into higher social spheres and improve their class distinction; furthermore, such stories help them improve their credentials in their respective communities as well in marriage alliances. i personally have been to India 3 times and have yet to see any Pushtun there! Furthermore, it is stated that 20% of the Urdu Mohajir community of Pakistan claim partial pushtun ancestry which I also believe involves the same concept of improving one's social standing seen in India as these Mohajir are originally from there. Neither do they have any of the phenotypical, cultural, linguistic traits or demeaner of Pashtuns; they're attempts to blur the lines of their lineage in Pakistan and to some extent in Afghanistan have for the most part failed as the presence of genuine Pashtuns who have no affinity with them immediately disproves any partial link with them. I ask that this supposed presence of Pushtuns in India and lineage of Pathans be clearified and/or removed.

Pretty Lady

Where is the image of the pretty lady in the article, the one which is on the Main Page?--Scheibenzahl 08:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just inserted it in the section about the ethnic deifnition fo Pashtun instead of a non-licensed image of Sharbat Gula. Thanks for noticing. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Image licensing

Before you add images to this article please read the guidelines for Fair Use. It specifically says that you cannot use a magazine cover in contexts related to the image on the cover but only in contexts dealing with the publicatio of the image. Please don't include any more magazine covers in the article unless a fair use rationale can be substantiated.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan (Badsha Khan)

Why is there no mention of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan the great non-violant leader of Khudai Khidmadgar? He is a Pashtun. "Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (Pashto/Arabic: خان عبد الغفار خان) (b. at Hashtnagar in Utmanzai, Peshawar, North-West Frontier Province, British India, c. 1890; d. in Peshawar, NWFP, Pakistan, 20 January 1988) was a Pashtun (Afghan) political and spiritual leader known for his non-violent opposition to British Rule during the final years of the Imperial rule in the Indian sub-continent. He was a lifelong pacifist and a devout Muslim. He was known as Badshah Khan (sometimes written as Bacha Khan), the King of Chiefs, and Frontier Gandhi."

Becaus this is not a list of famous Pashtuns . his article can be found here: Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 14:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If this is the case then what Mr Hamid Karzai is doing there, nevertheless this is not the famous Pashtuns list! His article can be found here: Hamid Karzai. Haider 21:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently an editor chose to include him as an example of a famous pashtun. I was merely implying that there is no reason that every famoues pashtun should be includd in the article. If you can see a way to include im in the article without disrupting its current flow please go ahead. If you see the necessityof including him then it is your own responasbility to do it.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Your first reply was not appropriate, but now I think it does make some sense that Mr Hamid Karzai has been choosen as famous pashtun, just for an example, otherwise Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan is far famous for his glorious credentials for pashtuns, as compare to Mr karzai. It would be more suitable to affix Khan Sahab image rather than some so-called famous. Thanks. Haider 21:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you that I meant no offense by any of my comments - but I can also say that not being a contributor to the article I knew who Karzai was and that he was a pashtun before reading the article. Badshah Khan I never heard of before you mentione him here. I do think that at least in the western part of the world more people have heard of Karzai than badshah Khan - this of course does not mean that he is more notable as a pashtun than Khan though. As I said - I canot put the material in the article since I don't know anything about it - you have the knwoledge and so the responsability of putting it in there.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If Badshah Khan is not famous to western world as compare to "Karzai" than khan sahab's image should have affixed much earlier, let the western world know about his credibilities and his efforts to unite the pashtuns, and, as I said earlier, his credentials were glorious for pashtuns and remind you, this is a Pashtun article, and a famous amongst pashtuns would make it more remarkable. Thanks. Haider 22:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The appropriate place in which to indicate the notability of Badshah Khan is in his own article. The Pashtun article is the place to indicate the notability of the Pashtun people, and this is best served by providing an example which is already familiar and well regarded to the greater readership. Those who are interested will look further into Pashtun related subjects, where they may find Badshah Khan and learn of his notability. LessHeard vanU 15:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What I was trying to say that Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan is more famous than Mr Karzai amongst Pashtuns and in geoghrapically related region aswell, while when we are working on an article about Pashtuns, he should be highlighted, because his efforts have made him a historical man, and also spent so many years of his life behind the bars, so if some one who has some know how about pashtuns, will love to see his image on main article rather than Mr Karazai, who has no credibility and historical back ground by any means. As far as my opinion concern Mr Karzai don't deserve any article. Haider 21:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Descended from Alexander

I have seen some where in books that Afridis are descended from Alexander (as a view/opinion) but no where seen Sadozais as from the same point of view, so Sadozais and Khattaks should be removed, while the ref no 36's details dosn't mention shown tribes also. For contributors benefits I will copy that paragraph below. Thanks. Haider 10:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

(Other Pashtun tribes claim descent from Arabs, including some even claiming to be descendants of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad (popularly referred to as sayyids).[14] Some groups from Peshawar and Kandahar (such as the Afridis, Khattaks and Sadozais) also claim to be descended from Alexander the Great's Greeks.[36]) Haider 10:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this article based on claims, nevertheless I have not seen any Afridi even, claiming descended from Alexander. Haider 10:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sadozai has just been removed from the Alexander's ancestory. I am sure it's okay with every one. Rest of the two tribes have never claim, descended from that line also, yes it is a view from few authors/historians esp for Afridis, while not even a single tribesman would know about Alexander as his ancestor. Thanks. Haider 09:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This has got to be checked to ensure such mistakes don't occur. Alexander's dynasty was completely counted and known during his time by so many of his literists and people. It can't physically be possible that he had a dynasty left in Afghanistan and that wasn't recorded anywhere by the ancients? This isn't the first time I have raed this for Pashtuns, I have even read that the Gakhar tribe at one point even claimed this too. It appears a cultural thing....--Alcides 16:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Vida Samadzai

I can't believe that someone put that crap on this article. This article has gone down the drain and is becoming garbage with idiots editing it and posting such garbage. Miss Afghanistan contest is not condoned by Afghanistan, so why the heck is it even mentioend. Plus how is Samadzai a Pashtun? She is a Parsiban. Many blood Pashtuns are Parsiban who have nothing to do with Pashtuns or Pashto at all. Please dont post your perversions here on this article. Wiki should have some credibility and block idiots from adding garbage like that. This is just one woman out of million. Why not just go find a stripper who might be Pashtun by decent and add her picture? This woman used the flight of the Afghan woman for her own benefit and was nothing but a political tool. The government and the women of Afghanistan denounecd here. She doesn't belong on this article period. CUT THE BS! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.129.54 (talk) 03:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

The image of Vida Samadzai has been removed. But it was not because of any of the nonsense reasons you just provided. For future discussions please read the rules on Wiki etiquette. The image was only removed due to licensing reasons. --Behnam 05:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Behnam da parsiban? I worked contributed to this article a long time back however ever since some parsiban spe has come over with their ahmed shah masoodov love this article has turned into nothing but a mouth piece of kabuli-ghul-hole. We all know how kabuli-ghul-hole like some of these writers and people like vida are treated by Pashtuns not only from the east but also in the south/west of Afghanistan. This article smells like crap with only parsibanan and kabuli faces all over yet not a single image of Ghani Khan, Bacha Khan, Wali Khan people who really did give a damn about Pashtun and Pashto rather then some ex-uncoal employess and half tajiki singers. What a disgusting sight of bais. WIKI pedia is nothing more then a view point of pesudeo scholars with political and personal agendas so dont give me crap about nonsense. WIKI is sued a dozen times and has apologized a dozen times even a kid as 12 year old can create write crap here. So shove your rules where they belong this is not but a OPEN BLOG for millions of web surfers, period! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.129.54 (talk) 07:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I believe mentioning her in the article is not out of line and she does speak Pashto so I'm not sure how this makes her a "Parsiban". She is well known regardless. We can't simply mention people and things about Pashtuns that please everyone. Rather, it should be informative as she is a well known figure like Abdul Ahad Mohmand. Most Afghan Pashtuns are multilingual so I'm not sure how this disqualifies her anyway. We need to keep an open mind with these things. If she is hated as you say, all the more reason to mention her. Tombseye 13:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

She speaks Pashto? says who? I live in California and know people that know her. She doesnt speak Pashto she is Kabuli Parsibana! Stop making stuff up white man! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.129.54 (talk) 07:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Mentioning her in the article is okay, but that picture is not acceptable. Hopefully it was not removed just because of a technicality. IP198 22:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Farhad Darya is a Persian- a Tajik

lol you loser, farhad darya is half persian and half pakhtun. please tell me some pashtun songs and i will tell you all persian songs of him. you will see farhad darya sang 90% into Parsi e darbari (language of noble persians and their kings) than in a backward pagho dagho language without any develops. What did you awghuls do in the last hundred years?? Just riddin donkeys?? Farhad Darya self callhimself as Tajik. In francfort in his last concert he said he is a proud persian,a tajik although he loves the pashtune people, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tajik-Professor (talk • contribs) 10:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Farhad Darya's father is Pashtun, which makes Farhad Pashtun. Farhad has many Pashto songs...Babulali is one. The reason he also sings in persian or other languages is so he can have fans from every ethnic. Besides, most Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak many languages other than their own Pashto. Learning more than one language is a thing smart people do. The Khrah Ghulaan Parsibanaan always lose. Parsibaan = Khar Koss, lol. Parsibaan = Behn Chode, lol. Parsibaan = Pother Nalat. Parsibaan = Koss Mother, lol. Parsibaan = moder chode, lol. Qizilbash = Chocha face, lol. Tajik = Cavrone, lol. We Pashtuns are now tired of beating the crap outta Parsibanaan, will these khra Kossaan Parsibanaan ever give up? Persians can say whatever they want, as the world never takes them serious.

lol you loser, farhad darya is half persian and half pakhtun. please tell me some pashtun songs and i will tell you all persian songs of him. you will see farhad darya sang 90% into Parsi e darbari (language of noble persians and their kings) than in a backward pagho dagho language without any develops. What did you awghuls do in the last hundred years?? Just riddin donkeys?? Farhad Darya self callhimself as Tajik. In francfort in his last concert he said he is a proud persian,a tajik although he loves the pashtune people, too.

Farhad Darya, Pashtun style.

Farhad Darya's father is Pashtun, which makes Farhad Pashtun. Farhad has many Pashto songs...Babulali is one. The reason he also sings in persian or other languages is so he can have fans from every ethnic. Besides, most Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak many languages other than their own Pashto. Learning more than one language is a thing smart people do. The Khrah Ghulaan Parsibanaan always lose. We Pashtuns are now tired of beating the crap outta Parsibanaan, will these khra Kossaan Parsibanaan ever give up? Persians can say whatever they want, as the world never takes them serious.

Farhad Darya split into pashtune face like he did one time in 1989 in Kabul. His father is a pashtune but a persianzied pashtune who don´t identify themself with afghans and afghan culture, similar like ahmad zaher. and that was the reason why he had to die because he was against his real identity. Farhad darya self claim himself as Persian, go or write to him and ask him personally. Farhad darya sang just two or three songs in Pashto but 95% of his songs are all in persian language, mostly poems of great khorassani heroes, ...not from kushal khan khattak or other pashtunes. ;-)

Look to president Amin or Karzei. They didn´t and do not calim themself as Pashtunes---cheers

Tajik-Professor

Ps;the homeladn of Pashtunes is Pakitsan the Peshawar-valley, the ancient ghandara capital where they pushed the greecs and sacaes out when they came as ashvakans from nortwest punjab. read as well BABURNAMA he call the peshawar, lahor and kafiristan region as Afghanistan and the inhabitens as Afghans

And Pashtunes are not decends of greecs. greecs looks eurpeans, paskhtuens look more like indians and indianized turks. apshtunes are a coalation of mayn tribes of non-aryan and aryan people like the durranis and khilzeis who are decends of turkized eftalits and the turkish khilijas. the mangals, jajris are the decends of the tribe mangal and jajrats. The Karokhils are decends of Kahroguz, another mongol tribe of djingis khan who became indianized or indo-iranized. Greecs gens looks european while more than 2/3 of pashtune gens have the same marks as the inhabitents of india, including of the negro drawidians.