Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 5

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Much Better!

The rewrite of the Pashtun article, especially of the sections dealing with their historical and anthropological orgins and affinities, is excellent! It clearly defines the Pashtuns as an eastern Iranian/Indo-European people (and possible admixtures) and detaches from the Israelite origin theory, while still crediting the latter as being popular folklore of the Pashtun people. This is how it should be. Kudos to the editor/author! Kamran Saeed | Talk.

My changes mostly, with special mention ot Smabel for reminding me that Paktyan is not a confirmed theory regarding the ancient Pashtuns. It seems that many Pashtuns, like other people in the region, seem to have fanciful mythological origins, but it appears that genetic evidence shows that there is very little Jewish ancestry (if there is any of any note aside from the Pashtun Jews who have mostly left for Israel). I may add some mention regarding religion as well. Tombseye 16:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Tombseye! Great work and great scholarship. Also, hats off to Joe Mabel for patiently maintaining a sanity check in what turned out to be an emotive issue :) Keep up the good work! Kamran Saeed | Talk.

Rig-Veda

"The Hindu Rig-Veda mentions a Pakhat 'Indo-Aryan' tribe as inhabiting present-day Afghanistan." Could someone cite? I suspect this is original research of the sort that does not belong in the article: the term Indo-Aryan tremendously post-dates the Rig-Veda, so there is at least some extrapolation here. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:11, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that's a good point J as always. I'll check it out and do the necessary changes. Thanks. Tombseye 16:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Osta and Herodotus

I would add some addtion in this respect, the OSTA of Persian some like of 1400 BC also mentioned this great Nation as BAGAD, so the Bagad of Persian Book Osta and Pakat of Rigved and Pactya of Herodotus is not just a coincidence. -- Haider 11:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Kakazai

Can anyone help with the new Kakazai article? It needs improvement (eg source verification) but I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself. Tearlach 21:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Kakazai/Kakay Zai

I wrote that post/article to educate people about Kakazai/Kakezai Pathan Tribe which is a non-English ethnicity. I am the copyright holder/owner.

Those images are THE SOURCES and for those people who understand Urdu and I made sure of that in description which I posted along-with the post/article/images.

Should you have any question then please feel welcome to contact me @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:McKhan

The History of Lodhi Tribe

Salaams & Hello Everone

I am M. Noman Khan Lodhi and am looking for history of my own tribe "LODHI" and want some features like the origin, Reigion, Beliefs, etc. etc. Kidnly do me favor if anyone has inormation and you can also mail me directly abt all this thing on my e-mail address on YAHOO i.e lodhi_mna

Thanks & Regards, M. Noman Khan Lodhi

Lodhis

Being a Pashtun of the NWFP of Pakistan, what I know about the great Lodhis -- for readers benefit, see a book Sher Shah Suri a fresh perspective by Basheer Ahmed Khan Matta -- (Pashtuns) are; Bahlol (the first emperor of the lodhi dynasty) grandfather Bahram Khan from Shahu khel Lodhi came to cross the indus during the reing of Firoz Shah Tughlaq and joined into the service of the governer of Multan, Malik Mardan Daulat. Bahlol Lodhi father's name was Malik Kala and was killed during in a fued with the Niazi Pashtuns. In the year 1440, Bahlol Lodhi defeated Ghalji Sultan of Malwa, he also won the title of Khan e Khana (the khan of khans). In april 1451 he ascended the throne of Delhi against Hameed Khan without any crutial resistance, assumed the title of Sultan and ensured that coins were struck and sermon (khutbas) delivered in his name. Lodhis dynasty came to an end when Babar won the famous and bloodiest battle of Panipat in 1526 AD. The Pashtuns nevertheless their serious disadvantages fought with great braveness, once they enter the battle field, maintaing the honour of their name in the cost of their lives; Ibrahims horse was bathed in blood up to the breast. he was aslo martyred during that famous battle. Due to some indian sources estimated pashtun loss were 40,000 to 50,000 dead. Bahlol Khan Lodhi reign was from 1451 to 1489, while the next Lodhi was Sikander Khan Lodhi, who ruled Delhi from 1489 to 1517 and the last one was Ibrahim Khan Lodhi, his reign was from 1517 to 1526, total Lodhi Dynasty was from 1451 to 1526 . -- Haider 19:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Aryans

May I presume that "Aryans" in the article is used means either Proto-Indo-Europeans or something similar? In any case, given the imprecision and racialist connotations of Aryans, I'd suggest finding a different and more precise word. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

In this case Aryan refers not to proto-Indo-European but actually a branch of Indo-European (such as Romance, Germanic, Armenian, etc.). As a branch of Indo-European it is a precise term, linguistically, but I decided to simply say that the Aryans were one of many invaders and that the Pashtuns are derived from while mentioning that they are largely from Iranian peoples who are partial descendents of these Aryans. We can't help the racialist inaccuracy attached in popular opinion unfortunately thanks to the Nazis who decided to re-write and misinterpret history in-spite of what German academics like Max Muller tried to explain, but the very term Iranian is a cognate for Aryan so there is no escaping the term as Pashto is undoubtedly an Iranian language of the eastern variety. I think it helps also to divide the Pashtuns into two main groups: one that speaks Pashto and are Pashtuns and others who are part Pashtun and are called Pathans as well as other groups who do not speak Pashto but claim descent from them. This way we know that the core group who speak Pashto have one set of origins and identity and the others have more complex origins. Does this sound okay to pursue? Tombseye 22:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest that whichever precise meaning you have in mind, you could disambiguate by linking appropriately? Presumably Indo-Aryans or Aryans (that's [[Aryans#Iranian|Aryan]])? Because the simple link to the article that covers all meanings of Aryans is not very informative. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, this is a tough subject to handle. On the one hand, I hate to see us toss out the term simply because there is confusion and on the other hand you make a valid point that the link goes into the disparate meanings. The problem is though that there is no Perso-Aryan link as the term Aryan is simply the same as Iranian, whereas the article already states that the Pashtuns are an Iranian people and the term Iranian is used numerous times. The Aryans did invade the region and Pashto can be traced to one of their languages, albeit greatly altered, that is now spoken. I think the brief mention I give them as one of the invaders is probably the best way to go, while leaving with the point the Pashtuns are largely an Iranian people and this should denote for people the same meaning as Perso-Aryan. Tombseye 07:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

So wouldn't that be what we get if you keep the visible word Aryans but link it as [[Aryans#Iranian|Aryan]]? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that is a possibility. It's just that since the article refers to Iranians, Iranian people etc. on numerous occassions, linking Aryan to them would be redundant. I do agree that it would be helpful if there was a page that related to the Iranians as an Aryan people similar to Indo-Aryan, but these are the terms. I just thought that perhaps one link wouldn't hurt as people can figure out things on their own to some extent. Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to clean-up the Aryans article at some point and I just might do that at some point if no one else does. Tombseye 08:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Tombseye, my proposal would still link to that same article, it's just that it would bring people directly to the relevant section. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes done as I linked Aryan to Iranian where it explains its usage at any rate. With a little more work this article should be a featured page, but if that happens I can only imagine the controversy and desire for people to change things. Ah wikipedia, so useful and yet so abused. Tombseye 20:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

What do people think of the debate between scientific evidence and oral traditions regarding the origins of the Pashtuns?

I appear to have offended at least one person by writing that the claims of some Pashtuns that they are descended from Jews and Arabs etc. is mythological. I was taking an academic view as there is no real evidence aside from later accounts written during the Islamic period and the claims of Greek descent seem to pop up many centuries after the Greeks had become a forgotten memory. Since Jews and Greeks (and of course Arabs) are prominently mentioned in the Quran, many academics believe that these origins stem from a desire to personally connect to the events related in the Quran. This is not uncommon amongst many Islamic populations as one can find Nigerians who claim to be the descendents of Muhammad. Most encyclopedias and works on the Pashtuns (including by educated Pashtuns) tend to view the aforementioned traditions as mythology so I don't think I was out of line for saying so. Regardless, I also don't think it's fair to dismiss the genetic evidence, albeit still in its initial phases, as not objective since it is clear that the researchers wanted to simply see if there was any credence to the claims of some Pashtuns regarding their genetic connections. At any rate, I think it's fair to simply divide the sections further and let the genetic section speak for itself while the oral traditions section explains what the legends are etc. Tombseye 07:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a reminder to all concerned: there is a separate article Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that article's an even bigger mess. The section in the Pashtun article is relatively short so that's cool I guess. I can only imagine the outrage at the many publications that call the theory mythology as they can't be changed by someone on the internet. Tombseye 08:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, there should also be a reference to the etmology of the word "Pashtun", "Pukhtun", or "Pakhtun". In the book "Pashto and Pashtuns in Light of Aryanian (Iranian) Philology (with Saka Backgroung", Dr. Mujawar Ahmad Zyar, the author, on the authority of George Morgenstierne and other libnguists, states that the word "Pashtun" actually evolved from "Pasrwa", word used for an Iranian people in Eastern Khurasan and mentioned by Strabo.

There is a "Pactyan" versus "Parswa" controversy as for the origin the word Pashtun is concerned with linguists supporting the derivation of the word "Pashtun" from "Parswa" and historians from "Paktyans". The article should mention both these viewpoints.

Moreover, Mashwani is a powerful Pashtun tribe inhabiting the area to either side of the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, in Dir, Malakand Division, NWFP and excluding them from the list of Pashtun tribes would be a mistake.

I appreciate insaaf and Haider for the valuable contribution to this Wikipedia article about Pashtuns.

(Posted by Naeem, November 18, 2005)

Hello Naeem. I had some problems finding Mujawar Ahmad Zyar, other than messageboards saying he's a Pashtun linguist. I couldn't find his book either. Do you have any more substantive links to his work? Might help to flesh-out any philology section. Tombseye 20:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

ThaNK you Tombseye! And I am sorry for a belated response. The works of Mujawar Ahmad Zyar are mostly in Pashto or German. The book I've mentioned above is in Pashto. If you like, I can send you the original book and the translation of the relevant pages. Nevertheless, Zyar mostly quotes George Morgenstierne, the Norwigian linguist that worked on Pashto and other East Iranian languages. I heard that George Morgenstierne works have been reprinted (e.g. An Etmological Dictionary of Pashto, etc.)

Naeem, Dec. 08, 2005

Pashtunwali (not) a religion

Please remove the bit about Pashtunwali being a religion. There is no historical fact, verbal fact, or written fact of any sort amongst us Pashtuns to say that Pashtunwali (the way of the Pashtun) is any form or sort a religion. The way of the Sumuria warrior, Bushido, is a set of rules and guides which are also thousands of years old, but it is clearly not a religion. Pashtunwali, is just known to all Pashtuns as the way of the Pashtuns, as how they should behave, react, treat, and live. It has no religious merits, nor does it speak of gods, prophets, heaven or hell, how we are born, why we are here, what is our purpose like all religions explains and elaborates. Pashtunwali is more like a law then a religion. It is the law of the tribal and warrior people of Pakhtunkhwa (Pakhtun domain), it sets rules and guides. It doesn't explain to us why we are born, why we exist, what is our purpose. It only shows us the best way to live our lives by ways that have been acquired by years of experiance and how to deal with so and such issues.

So I request remove Pashtunwali as "religion" from the article, unless you can provide me solid evidence that makes it a religion, please don't add some individuals personal wet dreams to the list as research.

Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.132.128.241 (talk • contribs) 28 Nov 2005

Thankyou for stream lining my addition!

Assalam-u-alaikum. This is Asim Khan Niazi writing from Maryland, USA. I would like to thank who ever proof read my addition on Pathan VS Pashtun. Inshallah i would add some credible history to the Niazi page. Right now it only mentions a few famous people. Someone has been removing info about the different Khelis. It would be hard to please everyone as people from most Khelis cant take historic facts. Who ever it taking care of these pages please stay in touch with me using the following contact info. Thankyou and Allah Hafiz.

E-mail: niazi_asim@hotmail.com

Pathan vs. Pashtun is a futile contribution and a ploy to promote Niazis on WikiPedia

It is quite obvious from Asim Khan Niazi's futile contribution, Pathan vs. Pashtun, to this page that he is trying to promote his tribe as one of the main tribe among Pathans. The only source which he is quoting IS "The Pathans" by Olaf Caroe and on the top of that he is claiming that Qais had three sons and to make the matter worst, he is putting his tribe on the top.

Pathans / Pashtuns / Pakhtuns are ethnicity NOT a liguistic race. It has nothing to do with the language. Only ignorants claim that Pashto is the only language spoken by the Pathans / Pashtuns / Pakhtuns.

It is disserice to the Pathans' history by drawing these lines on the premises of spellings as well as any language. Pathans are Pashtuns / Pakhtuns and vice verca.

And last but not the least, WikePedia should NOT be used as an advertisement ploy for tribes. WikePedia should stick to its NPOV guidlines. If one is really interested in Pathans' History then there are more important books out there which were published way before "The Pathans" by Olaf Caroe.

• "Frontier and Overseas Expeditions from India" Volume One published by Government Mono Type Press, Simla, India - (Originally Published 1907) ::

• "A Dictionary of the Pathan Tribes of the North West Frontier of India" published by The General Staff Army Headquarter, Calcutta, India - (Originally Published 1910) ::

• Family Tree of Qais Abdul Rashid :: Please, click on + signs to navigate ::

McKhan

I happen to agree and the way I worded the usage of Pathan I thought was clear earlier. They are a group believed to be only partially descended from Pashtun invaders that accompanied Islamic invaders into South Asia (DNA testing might help as well at some point). Further, according to most Pashtuns, you have to speak Pashto to be considered a Pashtun. At present, if you live in say the Punjab and you speak Sereiki and also claim to be a Pathan that would make you a Sereiki who happens to fall under a sub-group which we could call Sereiki Pathans, but not Pashtuns proper (similar in ways to the sub-clans and tribes amongst proper Pashtuns for example). The problem is that the edits seem to bother some people and others just want to change things again. I wanted to relegate the sub-group of Pathans as a group that claims descent from Pashtuns and has its own mythology etc. I suggest we simply go with the earlier version of setting things up as Pathans are claimants of partial heritage and leave it at that. What do you think? Tombseye 04:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you that we should stick to the older version which is more WikiPedia NPOV-compliant. There is no need to open any can of worms on firvilious grounds like Tribes and their importance, ranking .etc as well as to indulge into any futile and illogical discussion / 'debate' over "Pathans vs. Pakhtuns." There will always be ignorant people out there in our society who will continue to indulge themselves into the arrogance of being "Superior" or "pure" or "us-and-they Mentality" .etc on whatever grounds to rock their own boat. Lets keep it simple and neutral. And last but not the least, DNA testing will definitely burn all those bridges which lead to the safe haven for all those arrogants and ignorants and conspiracy theorists .etc who love to live in their Jack-In-The-Box-Mentality hole. McKhan

Asim Khan Niazi

Wanted to reply to the harsh answer for my addition. Firstly, i agree about the language thing. I agree that language does not make any person part of any race, sect or tribe. Thats the reason i wrote what i wrote. Actually i was replying to a discussion under the PashtunWali page and ended up adding it here too. I think this page was the wrong place to do that. Secondly the accusation about me promoting Niazi's as being superior to any other tribe is baseless. I actually refute such claims myself. All people/tribes are equal. History speaks for everyone itself. Who was at the right place at the right time doing the right thing. So let us leave that to history. I would like to end by saying sorry to anyone i offended. Allah Hafiz & Salaam u Alikum.

Okay, here's the thing, we need to somehow identify the people who speak Pashto and are called Pashtuns, bottom-line. The other groups, some of whom are related in various ways can have their own article if need be, but this group requires specific info. on them that is delineated here. I think it is best to leave the article as it was before these new additions as many of them repeat previous information anyway, while adding mostly oral tradition background. Either Pathans can get their own article OR the oral traditions section regarding the origins of the Pashtuns can be expanded to include this information. Regardless, I think the way this article relates to a specific core group that lives in a contiguous area is what corresponds with most other encyclopedias and field research done in the area and amongst the people concerned. At this rate, we'll be going over every single sub-group with ties to the Pashtuns. Thus, I think we'll be better off reverting to the old version, while the oral tradition section or a new section on Pathans can be expanded or added. Thanks. Tombseye 19:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Pathans", there is only Pakhtuns. Those who have Pakhtun blood, but don't speak the language and follow Pakhtunwali are not considered Pakhtuns. Too bad, come to live with it. Some people are bumbed out and are now creating their own groups. Pathan have no history, their history is Pakhtun history. Simple as that. Pathan term was used for Pakhtuns, people can be Pathan by blood, but they will never be Pakhtuns if they miss the core roo elements such as the language, and practice of Pakhtunwali. This attitude of the Pakhtun is the very reason why they were not assimilated by Arabs, Turks, Perisans or Hindustanis. They always made it clear who is who and what accordingly. characteristics can never me comprimised.

"Pakhtun characteristics can never me comprimised" ? Are you kidding me? You are "boradcasting" your monlogue about the superiority (Read INFERIORITY COMPLEX) of Pakhtuns from San Francisco. CA, USA. If you are SO proud of your "Pakhtun characteristics" then teach your "Pure" 'Pakhtun' brothers and sisters in Fremont and Hayward and elsewhere to EITHER speak Pashto (NOT Dari) OR go back to Afghanistan or wherever they came from because living in the West is equal to "compromising" the "Pakhtun" characteristics. And also TELL to all the 'Pakthuns' all the way from Australia to Brazil that they are NO longer 'Pakhtuns' because they have 'compromised' their 'Pakhtun characteristics.' And go and ask 'Pakhtun' Historians.. the language "Pakhto" or "Pashto" is more closer to Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, than Dari which is a classic form of Persian, language of Persia, a semi-national language of Afghanistan. If this is NOT compromising the "Pakhtun characteristics" then I don't know what else is. And last but NOT the least, this is the most illogical, arrogant and illetrate monologue I have ever heard from the "spokesperson" of modern 'Pakhtuns' living in the US, a MELTING POT of the world. The good news is that History and Mother Nature has always got plenty of needles in its arsenal to pop the balloons of such 'Superiority Complex' and arrogant attitude of these people who love to live in their Fools' paradise. Good luck. McKhan

===No I'm not kidding you, Mr. Mac Daddy Khan, these characteristics are never compromised no matter what you say or I would say, no matter what you do or I do. As far as those Afghan/Pakhtuns matter who live in Fremont and Heyward, in Afghanistan their own people have labeled them "dog washers". And please don't assume on my behalf, only I know what I make of them and they make of me. Reality is reality, facts are facts. There are tons of self-proclaimed scholars on the subject claiming to have figured it all out when it comes to the ethnic Afghans/Pakhtuns, however in reality they know nothing. No one is talking about Pakhtun superiority here, rather we are discussing facts. Pakhtun don't accept foreign elements in their social frame no matter where it comes from, at least they try very hard to avoid it. This attitude have had a positive and a negitive impact. They have always held their own against others. Those Pakhtuns who have compromised their characteristics are never welcomed into the community without doubts and labels. I believe you might hold yourself as some alim or scholar on behalf of the Pakhtuns authority Mr. Khan, but when it comes to this specific group of people, no one is. In the end, what does matter is the difference between fact and fiction, false and truth. What I have said is no lie. Pakhtun base their ethnic kinship on many factors, and language is one of them. Majority will make it very clear that if you don't speak the language, are not a Muslim, don't have the blood, and don't live by Pakhtunwali, you are not a Pakhtun. Then there are those who say otherwise, but they are in a minority.

Well, by the same token, then you are categorically one of those "dog-washers" because you claim to live in the the United States and there are plenty of "dog-washers" like you here in the United States who, to borrow your words, "are never welcomed into the community without doubts and labels" - because - they have compromised their "Pakhtun characteristics."

Last, Mr. Mac Daddy Khan, the civilized one, with no complex what so ever, try to be more respectful. From the tone of it, you sound more like a Talib then some one who has figured himself out, free of complexes. Already you have assumed so much about me, what’s next, I’m a Jew from Israel and I need to be bombed? MCkhan, on how many websites are you going to use the same language...."MELTING POT of the world"...Lets move on to new vocab for a moment.

Come again.

I am glad that you hit the bottom too soon by resorting to "politically" correct terms like "Taleban" and "Jew from Israel" and "need to be bombed" .etc - Please, count and list all those web-sites on which I have used the term "MELTING POT of the world"... Will ya?

I believe the article about Pashtuns on Wiki covers everything, from who is and is not a Pakhtun. If there are Pakhtuns on Mars, Barzil, USA, China, Japan, who have forgotten most of the characteristics that define Pakhtuns, then by all means, it's just too bad. Our personal say has nothing to do with what is reality, no matter how "sound" you might sound. Fact remains, that according to the masses, when some of these characteristics are comprimised, you are not welcome as one. This has been stated in the article on Wiki, there are not if's and but's about it. Otherwise Mr. Niazi has all the rights to discuss and debate the difference between Pathans and Pashtuns. In terms of blood, there is no single forefather the Pakhtuns can trace their roots to. What defines them is their language, their heritage, their culture, and religion today. If you wish to count blood ties, good luck, because you sure in hell won't find a single common ancestor.

When did last time someone tell you that you cannot even write a paragraph without resorting to contradictions as well as oxymoronic ebonics? I think I just DID. Your above paragraph is an example in due course.

Someone with a name "Khan" talking about INFERIORITY COMPLEX, should I even bother get into that?

As far as my last name, Khan, and "inferiroity complex" is concerned, I am quite humble to be a PATHAN / PASHTUN / PAKHTUN - ALL - at the same time. Consequently, I just couldn't care less about all those egoistic, arrogant and illetrate so-called "pure Pakthuns" out there because they cannot define me nor they can take away my heritage, my blood-line from me. I was born as a PATHAN / PASHTUN / PAKHTUN and will always be till my last breathe. If they cannot accept that It is their loss NOT mine. :) McKhan

---Oh I get it, why didn't you say so that you are some Urdu Khan trying very hard to get accepted. If you could careless then you wouldn't care to open your mouth and let out such an emtional outburst. The fact is you are not the first one and the last one. Sorry for stepping on your tail Mr. Khan Pathan, but you are not a Pakhtun if you don't speak Pakhto. That is a fact, and it is listed. I don't care if you are the son of Ahmed Shah Abdali, or Qais Abdul Rashid, you can't be counted as one of us. It's not a matter of being the pure, it's a matter of keeping to the facts. I'm sure this is the first time you came across it, and it wouldn't be the last.

I love when people like you get srtip-naked using their ebonics to show how shallow they are. Thats what exactly you are doing. On one hand you have got the audacity to claim yourself among "Pure Pakhtuns" and on the other hand you keep whinning and complaining and ranting about your "Superiority" through your monologue which you are braodcasting from San Francisco, California. Did you seek asylum in the United States by becoming an Afghan Refugee though in reality you are from Pakistani NWFP 'coz you can speak "Pashto"? :))

I fail to see the relevance of the subject “How did I get to United States” at the matter at hand, is that what sphoisticated, literate, scholars with no identity whatsover Khans like you do when you can't face facts? The point is, I speak Pashto and you don’t. I have the blood, you might. I lived the culture, share the heritage, and have experienced the life. You on the other hand are a fake Urdu “Pathan” Khan who is bumbed out now because I have stepped on your tail, the tail you wiggle at the rest your Urdu speaking community to flaunt your Khan and Pathan identity so you can feel oh so pretty and special. I'm not sorry, go see a shrink! Stop moaning about people trying to take something away from, you have nothing to begin with, something you made up in your own little head, some your abba and ammi told you to make you feel speacial. Now go cry to mommy because it was all a lie.

WOW.. I am impressed that you have learned about me and my IDENTITY (which you have denied in the above paragraph at the same time by keeping up the pace of your contradictions...) very well.. BY DOING WHAT? Searching - using the keyword "McKhan" over the internet? The information which is already up since the time you didn't even know how to spell I N T E R N E T? Big deal... At least, I have got the galls to put myself and my work ONLINE with SOMETHING.. What have you got? Nothing but a shallow SUPERIORITY COMPLEX of being "Pure Pakhtun"? McKhan

True I would be a dog washer but I'm not from Afghanistan so I don't count. You on the other hand want to rub off of people who don't want to accept you as one of them, why don't you deal with your complexes and move on.

Of course, you are a "DOG-WASHER... Read your metaphor about "Tail" and "Wiggles"... I just couldn't care less.. Fake or Pure... I am a PATHAN / PASHTUN / PAKHTUN all in onve.. and NO, I am NOT an Urdu speaker... but I can speak more than 5 languages and Urdu IS one of them... :)) McKhan

Tragedy with the people like you is that you would love to get all the fame and attention from the deeds of Non-Pashto speaking Pathans like Hamid Gul, Akhtar Abdur Rehman Khan, Imran Khan .etc without any shred of shame or embarrassment. Then obviously, language doesn't count. What a hypocritical attitude?

Again you are assuming too much Pathan. Amongst the Pakhtun intellectuals none of them Khans you have mentioned are worth more then the dirt under the feet of our illiterate Pashto singers. You can bring your Hamid Gul, Imran Khan, and Sharukh Khan place them on one side, and bring our illiterate, poor Pakhtun sadargharay Khyal Mohammad on one side, they still wouldn’t be able to out do him. What has the likes of Hamid Gul done for Pakhtuns? What has Imran Khan done for Pakhtuns?

What does "Pakhtuns" like you have done for themselves except boasting, ranting, whinning, complaining and trying to show how "superior" they are? Read [this McKhan

Pathans have only served their mothers mother tongue, and their mothers mother community. This is a well known fact both in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. It is only amongst their non-Pathan Urdu/Dari speaking nationals that they boost their PATHAN heritage, how great they are that they are not some Hindu/Mongolian decent. Talk about inferiority complexes. It doesn't take long for these very Pathans to poke fun of the same Pakhtuns/Pathans when they are with their motherly ties.

See. Learning the language is NOT a big deal... I think it is even better to know as many as languages you can... I did threw your condesceding and comtemptuous Pashto poetry on your face... Didn't I? But like I said.. People like you are never going to get it... Coz you can't :)) McKhan

Anyways I thought I was dealing with some Pakhtun, since you are a Pathan, I rather not waste my time. BTW, Khan is Turk/Mongolian, it is alien to us Pakhtuns as the term "Pathan" is. Fact is majority of the Pakhtuns don't even have the last name KHAN, it was adopted by those Hindustanis whose villiages were under the rule of Afghan Khan (cheifs) who conqured India for the Islamic armies. Khan to us means nothing. It might give you some sort of status due to the Hindu cast system, Pakistanis have this tendency of proclaiming to be something other then "Hindustani", I guess they sleep better at night know thing that, but it doesn't mean jack in the Pakhtun vocab.

Agha sook Pakhtun da che Pakhto nashe kawal? BePakhto Pakhtun na beghairat da! Agha yaar waye che dozakh xaba da! Ze ba de Xabay sara Janat ta Za ma!

You arrogant, contradictory, ignorant, illetrate "Pure Pakhtun" from San Francisco, CA! - You are resorting to the condescending and contemptuous Pashto Poetry in which you are sending me to "Dosakh" (Hell) and yourself into Janat (Paradise) by implying that I am "Beghairat" (Have No Shame) on the premises of "Pashto"? And you think that I am from India? And you think by calling myself a Khan, I am trying to become a Pathan... There are plenty of Tarkani and Mamund in Bajaur (Federally Administrered Tribal Area) and elsewhere, my forefathers, who don't even use any Khan AND then there are some like me who DO use... So, what? - (And yet you want respect from me? You ain't gonna gotta get it...) - As a Muslim, I just couldn't care less whether I am Pathan or NOT... It is JUST about my roots which NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY, can take away from me NOT even a "Fatwa" from "Pure Pakthuns" you represent... It has NOTHING to do with cast or creed or status... Obvisouly, people like you don't get it and will NEVER get it.

I’m being called an “arrogant, contradictory, ignorant, illetrate “Pure Pakhtun” from San Franisco, CA!” by some low life “Pathan wish to be” who is seeking a wife on the internet. What happened, did the first one leave when she finally realized how full of shit you are? Oh wow you traced my IP, big deal, and how did you end up in the states, did you sell one of your “Muslim” brothers for a visa to the US? Or did you claim that you were raped by some Pakhtun by the order of a panchayat? According to Musharaf, that is the latest trend down there. And please after viewing your picture, there is nothing special about you. You look no different then a typical Urdu speaking Muhajir or Punjabi. In fact, some of those Urdu speakers might look more Pathan/Afghan then you do. Don’t be alaramed, your roots are already taken away by your current mother tongue. There is nothing speacail about you, you are no more a Pathan then a Hindustani Shah, Lodhi or Suri. Now if you did speak Pakhto, you would have realized that the poem had nothing to do with you. It is one of the many common proverbs used by Pakhtuns. You wouldn’t know would you? Since you speak ORDOOO?

Good day mr.pathan Khan.

It is clearly listed who Pathans are and Pakhtuns. I could careless if you called yourself a Pathan, I could care even less if some china man calls himself "pathan". None amongst the Pakhtuns care, we don't.

And last but NOT the least, by your own definition, YOU ARE A "DOG-WAHER"... So, quit using the "we" speech as you have been fired from your self-designated post of "Spokesperson" of "Pure Pakhtuns" as you are NOT one of "them" but just a "dog-washer" living in San Franciso, CA. Peace - McKhan

I rather be a dog washer then a fake Pathan, Paki who is having an identity crises living in the “Melting pot” yet holding on to his dear roots. And I am suppose to be contradictory? I can live with the fact that I am a dog washer, but a complete one at that. Your Pathanness will die with you, that is an unfortunate fact you can’t change. Happy wife finding in Kansas, hope you find some good looking “Pathani” Kakazay, so you both can give birth to more Urdu Khanis and Pathanis, Bollywood and Lollywood needs you. We’ll be here to slap them in the face with facts to show them that they are no special.

WOW... Resorting to personal attacks on my "ugly" / "swarthy" / non-Pathan face as well as on my family...? It shows how much "Pure Pakhtun" you are... Doesn't it? Coz you must be the offspring of all those WHITE / Caucasian looking chicks which you call mothers... :)) BE WARNED: If you will attack my family.. I will NOT hesitate to TROUNCE your whole family.. Who the hell do you think you are? You think you are the only one who knows about "Pakhtunwali"? And I would rather be a PATHAN than a "Pure Pakthun" like you.... READ [this] coz these are your "facts" :)) McKhan

Ethnicity is defined by language, common heritage, culture, social frame, race and traditions. Pakhto is not only the spoken language of Pakhtuns, but it is also a way of living known as Pakhtunwali. No Pathan can tell me that he is living according to Pakhtunwali while he she can’t speak Pakhto. There is no such thing as Tarbeta, Torah, Toor, Nang, Namos, Nanawetay, Badraga, Tarboor, Tiga, Salwekhstay etc. etc. in Pathan languages, these are concepts of Pakhto that characterize Pakhtunwali. There is a big difference between “Jirga” and a “Panchayat”, there is a big difference between Pakhtunwali and “Pathanwalgi”. Shame, Pakhtunwali has been transformed into “Pathanwalgi”, something so fake and superficial.

I want you to follow your Pakthunwali here in California... Why don't you? :)) McKhan

You can’t fallow Pakhtunwali when you can’t speak Pakhto, because when a Pakhtun does an act according to Pakhto, it is proclaimed as “Pakhto ye wakra!” “He/She did according to Pakhto!” But since you don’t speak Pakhto, what are you going to say, he she did according to Urdu? Siraki?

I want you to follow your Pakthunwali here in California... Why don't you? :)) McKhan

Pakhtunwali is defined by the Pakhto, and so is Pakhtun. Blood only matters in the Pakhtun society in close circles, family and extended families, known as Khels. In a broader perspective, it is the common language, common heritage, common culture, and common national interest that make the Pakhtun nation. This is why they never yield to Urdu Pakistan rule or Persian Afghanistani rule. They have always kept their own against others.

I want you to follow your Pakthunwali here in California... Why don't you? :)) McKhan

Note: this is not an Islamic discussion, so no Muslim bhai charaa drama. Discuss it under the Islam discussion. Your comments I am Muslim first blah blah blah don’t belong here. We are discussing Pakhtuns, lets stick to that.

This will be my last post on this matter. Last thing I need is to defend myself against 2 Urdu Khani "Pathans". HAHA!

What a hypocritical and contradictory "Pure Pakhtun" you are? On one hand you talk about following "Pakhtunwali" which has incorporated many Islamic elements in it and on the other you want to forget about Islam... Do you know how to talk without resorting to your arrogance, illetracy, ignorance, illogical and insane mindset LET ALONE "discuss" about "Pakthuns"? You NEED a shrink.. NOT me... AND I am sure you cannot afford one 'coz it is against your religion, "Pakthunwali" AND yes.. I am sure you have plenty of time to read these [facts] about your "Pure Pakhtuns" :)) - Good luck with your superiority complex and DENIAL. :)) McKhan

Asim Khan Niazi

What ever you name is friend, so i get one thing out of all your nonsense. I get any odd guy, teach him pushtu, make him follow pushtunwali and all the rest you mentioned above and he is one of your pure pushtuns, right. Thats the most ridiculous definition i have ever heard. Sorry to put you wrong. So this also means if your son stops speaking pushtu so he wont be pure any more. This is bullshit, thats what i think of it. You are talking like the Afghan Corn(Challi) sellers in Pakistan. You tell them you are a Pushtun/Pathan and they reply why dont you speak pushtu then and you reply the same bullshit to all of em, that your tribe had migrated to a place where pushtu was not the language being spoken. Sorry to pop you superiority bubble but i think no one would agree with your definition. What i do agree with you is the following of PushtunWali, the bloodline and everything else except the language being compulsory for being a Pushtun/Pathan.

I want to bring one more point up. Pathan is the word used in the Indian Subcontinent for being a pure Pushtun, as you have been saying yourself. So what is the problem with you not accepting it, it is just a word. Its like (Na-uzo-billa) the word Pushtun was brought down by Allah. Also stop saying stuff like this "None amongst the Pakhtuns care, we don't.", you certainly dont represent everyones opinion.

Im a Niazi from IsaKhel. Im proud of my history, my lineage, my religion. If you are not familiar with the Niazi's from IsaKhel i can send you our histroy and you can judge by your self. The general of Sher Shah Suri's army was a Niazi. If you can then try to refute my lineage, my histroy and my being a pure pushtun by facts, not just by saying i dont speak pushtu. My family still follows pushtunwali and all what a pushtun stands for. We only marry within our family or with other pushtun tribes. Actually what i want to question is you. Please tell us more about yourself. Dont just refute everyone by being contadictional.

Asim Khan Niazi

MCKhan, its no use wasting our time with this ignorant guy. He talks like he represents the final say in choosing who is who. Now see, he is fleeing because he cannot support his baseless claims. If others are reading this discussion, please step in and give us your opinions. thankyou and Allah Hafiz.

---

Hello!

I read all the posts here and frankly speaking was disappointed by the aggressive attitude of the posters, especially the brother who was responding to McKhan. I'll like to tell him that, contrary to his claims of being Pashto-speaker, the Pashto he wrote was not not correct. The proper syntax for the Pasho verse ( from a poem of great 20th Century Pashto poet Amir Hamza Khan Shinwari ) he quoted is:

Wayi aghyar chai da dozakh jaba da za ba janat ta da Pukhtu sara zam

Anyhow, being a Pashtun and Pashto-speaker of Yousafzai descent, I have to say the following about all this controversy.

1) Pashto is the language which Pashtuns have been identified with since their apprearance in history. Even the language of the ancestors of the people who now want to have a "Pathan" sub-identity for themselves was Pashto. So understating the importance of Pashto as Pashtun-identity marker would be a grave mistake. As for superiority or inferiority is concerned, the point is, the preservation and sustenance of the unique culture, race, and value-system of Pashtuns can only be ensured if there is cohesive group making that possible through in-breeding, use of a "group-wide" language for social and cultural communication/transmision,-- practice, transmission, and transformation of the Pashtun Culture/Values, and assertion of political sovereignty. It is obvious that only the Pashto-speaking Pashtuns inhabiting a vast region of about 5,000,00 Squre Kilometers have the capaicity and the will to do that.

We Pashto-speakers are not proposing that we are pure and superior; we are only contending that only we, Pashto-speaker Pashtuns, have been and are central in the inception and realization of the whole concept called "Pashtun", "Pashto", "Pashtunwali", and "Pashtunhood".

2)How central Pashto is to the concept of "being Pashtun" can be inferred from the fact that the word "Pashto" is not only the name of a language it also is "Pashtun-value system"---values which a person must uphold in order to be called a Pashtun.

3) Of the 40 millions Pashto-speakers inhabiting Afghanistan and NWFP, FATA, and Baluchistan, none would probably like to call himself a "Pathan". I personally don't feel easy with this name. We consider "Pathan" as a name given to us by aliens. The only name, we universally use for ourselves is "Pashtun", "Pukhtun", or "Pakhtun" depending on the soft or hard dialect of Pashto we use. The other less common name we use or generally accept for ourselves is "Afghan".

4) It is a fact that these are the 40 millions Pashto-speaker "Pashtuns" of Pakistan and Afghanistan to have upheld Pashtunwali and to have preserved the unique culture and race called Pashto and Pashtuns. It is they that gave birth to the ancestors of our non-Pashto speaking brothers who now want to claim "Pathan" subidentity for themselves. And it is most likely in these 40 millions Pashto-speakers that Pashtun identity will survive. So the centrality of these 40 millions Pashto-speakers in the concept "Pashtun" should be beyond any controversy.

5) But the non-Pashto speaking brothers with Pashtun ancestory must also be accommodated. So it would be appropriate to use the word "Pashtuns" to refer to three groups of people (i) the 40 millions Pashto-speakers Pashtuns who are Pashtuns by blood, language, culture, and societal and national affiliation (ii) Pashtun tribes like Niazis of Mianwali who no longer speak Pashto but have retained their tribal cohesion and practice Pashtunwali (iii) non-Pashto speakers like Kakazais of Punjab with Pashtun ancestory and claims to practicing Pashtunwali but not having retained the cohesion of their tribe and having sort of disintegrated and become diluted in the broader social-ethnic fabric of Punjabis.

I propose that we should altogether drop the word "Pathan" from usage or should use it for people in group (iii) only (because they have lost their tribal cohesion). The word "Pashtun" should be used for people in group (i) i.e. 40 millions Pashto speakers... and (ii) non-Pashto speaking Niazis of Mianwali.

6) Non-Pashto speaking Pashtuns should accept the centrality of 40-millions Pashtuns in Pashtun ethnicity and in the group-cohesion and identity-formation and preservation of Pashtuns.

At the same time I requet the brother responding to McKhan to be considerate towards fellow Pashtuns. After all they are the offspring of our honorable Pashto-speaking elders although they don't speak Pashto now . Naeem December 11, 2005

Mr. Naeem unlike you I didn't bother to copy and paste Hamza baba poetry. I read your article before the actual poem was there, and I have read it now when you have copied/pasted it. There is a way Hamza baba has written it and then there is the verbal version that differs from khel to khel, tribe to tribe, and from village to village. You are wrong, my Pashto wasn’t incorrect. It was only the order of the wording, and the wording used, that didn’t match your local or academic version. I wasn't insisting on my superiority, I was stating facts. The two Pathans tried to render Pashto useless when it came to categorizing Pakhtuns. The Pathans who have no clue what so ever, after reading some romantic Urdu books on the subject have some how come to think that they have figured it all out. Only a Pakhtun who speak the language, and have experienced the life style would understand the importance of Pakhto. Like you have stated it is more then just a language. While the Pakhtuns look up to leaders like Mirza Khan, Ghaffar Khan, Ahmed Shah Abdali, Khushal Khattak, Mirwais Nekh, Hotak Nekh, the Pathan is bringing the likes of “Hamid Gul” and “Imran Khan” to the plate. I know you know a lot about Hamid gul, care to shed a little light for the Pathans as to what Mr. Hamid Gul has truly done for the Pakhtuns? So I request you brother, acknowledge everything before you make a statement. Set your priorities where they belong. Again I can take my time and argue with the Pathans, but who really cares? Pa drankht!

The Article on Pashtuns!

I thank Tombseye and Joe Mabel for their effort to compile this excellent article on Pashtuns. The article has the special quality that it is based on research material not myths.

Moreover, to Tombseye: I am sorry for a belated response. The works of Mujawar Ahmad Zyar, I quoted somewhere on this page, are mostly in Pashto or German. The book I've mentioned is in Pashto. If you like, I can send you the original book and the translation of the relevant pages. Nevertheless, Zyar mostly quotes George Morgenstierne, the Norwigian linguist that worked on Pashto and other East Iranian languages. Some works of George Morgenstierne have recently been reprinted (e.g. An Etmological Dictionary of Pashto, etc.)

Further, I am residing in NWFP, Pakistan and if you need any material on Pashtun demography, literature, history, or tribal-social organization in Pashto, English, or Urdu, please do write me. If you need something to be translated from Pashto to English, I can also help in that. My email is: mnaeem198@yahoo.com.

Naeem, December 11, 2005

Hello Naeem, Thanks for the information. Can you do me a favor then and add a section on philology and insert the pertinent information which I can then edit for grammar etc.? I just completed some more edits to give the article a more appealing look such as the summary caption box. As for the Pashtun vs. Pathan controversy, I believe the way the article addresses it is both fair and accurate and delineates Pathans as a sub-group of sorts while remaining clear that Pashto-speakers are generally considered 'Pashtuns' from the academic sense. This is a fair compromise in my opinion and I think the explanation of the various meanings of Pathan help for those who hear the term and believe it is synonomous with Pashtun, which it sometimes is and sometimes isn't. In addition, if you have any pertinent external links, please add them. Also, under the social conditions section I added, there is a women's section that I wrote. Since women are roughly half the population it seemed unfair to leave them out of the article and if there is any information that can be added here, then great. I wanted to expand the Social Conditions section by adding other sub-sections in the future such as politics at a later date, but anyone can add other sections if they want to such as sub-sections on Pashto entertainment (film, music), politics, economic conditions, etc. Thanks for your input Naeem and I may email you at a later date regarding information on the Pashtuns and for translation purposes. Thanks. Tombseye 20:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)