Talk:Passover sacrifice

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)

Usually when discussing Ancient Israel the terms are in English. Google Books indicates 11,000 hits for "Passover sacrifice" and 1,600 for "korban Pesach." In ictu oculi (talk) 06:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

And search per GOOGLE SCHOLAR:

• "passover sacrifice" 1,170 hits
• "passover offering" 352 hits
• "korban pesach" 84 hits

In ictu oculi (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved There doesn't appear to be consensus for the move at this time. Alpha_Quadrant ^(talk) 15:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

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Korban Pesach → Passover sacrifice – Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). WP:RS http://books.google.co.uk/advanced_book_search "passover sacrifice" more than "passover offering" to "korban pesach" + "qorban pesach" hits. All uses refer to sacrificial rite practised in Ancient Israel, not practised in modern Judaism. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose so far, because that evidence is utterly misleading. (See explanation at another current RM.) Corrected figures for two of those Googlebook searches:

• {"passover sacrifice"}: 413 genuine hits
• {"korban pesach" OR "qorban pesach"}: 323 genuine hits

That is far less compelling evidence. With respect, I suggest people learn how to do Google searches before presenting such erratic results here.

Noetica^Tea? 08:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Noetica, can rely on WP:EN alone and less spectacular difference in hits. http://books.google.co.uk/advanced_book_search In ictu oculi (talk) 08:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

There's a problem with http://books.google.co.uk/advanced_book_search:

"of the passover sacrifice" 1,810 ends "page 43 of 421 results"

"passover sacrifice" 10,300 ends "page 42 of 412 results"

Some kind of rounding down is happening on the last page of Google books results. The result for above should not be identical. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know precisely how you've configured your searches, Ictus. Best to report them with full links. Then we can examine the string that Google parses, to diagnose any difficulty. One tip: set the number of hits per page to the maximum value: 100. This shortens your work, getting you to the last page promptly. Generally, include slightly more "registerable" words than of and the, but still unbiasing and suitable for reducing the number of hits. Study these two searches, including the line showing restrictions at the top:

"of the passover sacrifice"
"of the passover sacrifice was"

210 genuine hits (found at page 3) versus 10 genuine hits. For our purposes, the restriction to "Preview and full view›Books›Jan 1, 1990–Sep 16, 2011›Search English pages" is useful indeed. We want recent books, and we want to be able to check them with preview. Now similar searches using the other term of interest:

"of the korban pesach"
"of the korban pesach was"

28 genuine hits versus 1, to set against the earlier larger numbers.

Google searches are notoriously skittish, and Google seems to change the exact rules without notice. We work until we find something informative for our purposes, and also stable.

I hope that helps. I have been asked to write a more comprehensive guide to Google searching, since it is so important for RMs. I may well do so, when I have time.

Noetica^Tea? 22:48, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Noetica, thanks for the explanation, but as per kwami's additional comment the long tail on Google Books isn't totally misleading, just can't be checked. And aren't inconsistent with the GOOGLE SCHOLAR results above. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support This is in sink with WP:EN and "Pesach" which redirects to Passover. Chesdovi (talk) 11:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm fine with Passover offering, per WP:EN and the convention re "offering" at other articles in the same class. I oppose Passover sacrifice, however, because it deviates from convention and anyway isn't an accurate equivalent of Korban Pesach in the strict sense.—Biosketch (talk) 10:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per Noetica and Biosketch. And just to be clear, "korban Pesach" OR "Korban pesah" gets ~2,000 google book hits. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg, good to see you vote. But Noetica said "oppose so far" and Biosketch said "I'm fine with Passover offering" which isn't the same as your opposition to English.

How do you get the above Google Book results?

Google Books "korban pesah" 194 results

Google Books "korban pesach" 1,670 results

Google Books "passover offering" 6,540 results

Google Books "passover sacrifice" 10,300

Google Books passover lamb 23,100

I didn't check for the variant pesah

Google Scholar 19 hits for "korban pesah"

Google Scholar 84 hits for "korban pesah"

Google Scholar 1,170 hits for "passover sacrifice"

Google Scholar 352 hits for "passover offering"

Google Scholar 3,330 hits for "passover lamb"

In ictu oculi (talk) 23:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Ictus, I regret having to say it, but you are wasting your time and others'. Above you say this: "... as per kwami's additional comment the long tail on Google Books isn't totally misleading, just can't be checked." What are you referring to? Even if I can work it out, what are other editors to make of that? Kwami has not joined this discussion. If you mean his remark at my talkpage (in this section), note that he has been contradicted – with argument and a definitive link – by me and by A di M (another expert searcher). And now you present searches that ignore the advice that I took pains to present. For example, this search of yours:

Google Books "passover offering" 6,540 results

Wrong. As I explained, 6,540 is Google's estimate based on its proprietary algorithms. Click through to the last page of Googlebook's results on a similar search but expanded to include all variants: {"korban pesach" OR "korban pesah" OR "qorban pesach" OR "qorban pesah"} (and let Jayjg take note: Google ignores case and most punctuation). Google in fact finds 359 genuine hits with any the four variants in books. How do you explain that, as opposed to 6,540? (No mere guessing, please!) See how this 359 comports rationally as an expansion of a search I reported in my first post, above. With respect: get with it, or stop reporting Google results at all until you are willing to learn how they work.

Noetica^Tea? 02:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Noetica, at this point, to be honest, I don't know how Google Books is calculating things, I would prefer to use Athens hits except without a password they can't be accessed by other users. So Google Scholar seems better. But the Google Books above are like-for-like misleading. Whichever way these numbers stack, any method will show that the English language terms are more common than the use of foreign language terms for these items (Foreign language isn't just Hebrew and Aramaic, I haven't bothered to run Greek and Latin). The links are there for anyone to click/adjust/compare, and its the comparing that is the issue. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Korban Pesach is the common term applied to this pages contents based on the audience the Korban applies to (i.e. the Jewish nation who heartily accepted G-d's Torah on Mount Sinai)--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 20:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Sacrifice"

The translation used in the article now is of the JPS Tanakh.

The Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, on the first new moon of the second year following the exodus from the land of Egypt, saying: Let the Israelite people offer the passover sacrifice at its set time: you shall offer it on the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, at its set time; you shall offer it in accordance with all its rites and rules

— Num. 9:1–3, JPS translation

It translates the Hebrew וְיַעֲשׂוּ בְנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַפָּסַח בְּמוֹעֲדוֹ as "Let the Israelite people offer the passover sacrifice at its set time." I like the NASB translation better here, since it keeps more to the literal meaning of the passage: "Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time." It translates הפסח as "the Passover" rather than "the passover sacrifice."—Biosketch (talk) 05:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Biosketch, interesting - I hadn't noticed that (the verse wasn't my contribution), but presumably this metonymy of pesach for [korban] pesach is commonish? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Move, no consensus now, WP:EN still Wikipedia policy

For all the fumbling and disagreement about Google Books search tails, the results for Google Scholar seem unchallenged:

• Google Scholar 84 hits for "korban pesach" - most of which occur in italics after the English
• Google Scholar 1,170 hits for "passover sacrifice"
• Google Scholar 352 hits for "passover offering"

+ consistency with main article Passover. So at some point this move discussion will come back to try and reach a more broad consensus of Wikipedia editors. Anyone reading this Talk page who wants to be the proposer feel free to do so. The current foreign language title is clearly unhelpful to normal users and unsupported in English language WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Small change

Made a small change to "home ceremony". The prior text was based on a misunderstanding of Mishnah 10 Chapter 5 of Pesachim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.63.57 (talk) 07:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Korban Pesach → Passover sacrifice – It's been almost 2 years so putting this RM back in with more precise Google Book parameters. "Passover sacrifice was" starts with "7,960" results and pages out at 8 pages. "Korban Pesach was" starts at "622 results" and pages out at 4 pages. It is also the standard form in JPS Tanakh (1985), and Soncino, Rodkinson (1903), Schottenstein, Neusner, and Steinsaltz Talmud translations. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:47, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Women counted

Article currently says: According to some Talmudic authorities, such as Rav Kahana IV, women counted in the minyan for offering the passover sacrifice (B.Pesachim 79b). This is misleading. As written, the article implies that according to R. Kahana women were counted for the 30 required in each tranche of people offering the sacrifice. However, the talmud quoted talks of a situation where a major portion of the populace was levitically impure; if a majority is impure, then the paschal sacrifice is offered in an impure state. If the majority is pure, then the impure people need to make up the sacrifice 1 month later. The question is whether women count in determining whether a majority of the people are impure. It does not refer to the groups of people offering sacrifices. Pollira (talk) 04:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

lamb or goat

Why are goats ok, when the original command was for a lamb? And why only those two? More info needed.

Did the household in the original Passover have to eat the lamb they sacrificed? 12.124.76.182 (talk) 18:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Exodus 12:5 says

"... must be year-old males without defect, and

you may take them from the sheep

or the goats."

-- NIV 2011 73.222.26.238 (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2022 (UTC)