Talk:Pastoral counseling

Merger proposal

I am proposing that Biblical counseling and Christian counseling be merged here. Both are very short (particularly if the former is shorn of its excessive WP:PRIMARY-sourced material) of doubtful notability, on the same general theme as this article. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 07:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The reason I would oppose this is that Nouthetic/Biblical Counseling does not condone psychology or its usage within the church. View [1] for a brief overview of the differences. However, (and this may be what you're getting at) Nouthetic/Biblical counseling could be made a subset within Pastoral Counseling. Timmillr 13:42, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• I would note that Wicks, Robert (1985). Clinical Handbook of Pastoral Counseling. New York: Paulist Press. ISBN 0809133253. places Christian counseling, Biblical counseling & Nouthetic counseling in the context of Pastoral counseling. Of course care needs to be taken in differentiating between subtypes (and subtypes from wider categories), but I think this task is better performed in the context of the range of counseling techniques, rather than in isolation. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 09:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• I would agree 100 percent that Nouthetic counseling is part of Pastoral counseling. Jay Adams himself says that "a Christian minister is counselor and preacher, par excellence." Adams, Jay (2009). Competent to Counsel. Grand Rapids: Zondervan. ISBN 9780310829546. And while I am a student of Nouthetic counseling and believe it to be unique, it is still a form of Pastoral counseling. I also believe that, only those familiar with Nouthetic counseling will search for it on Wikipedia, while those unfamiliar with it will benefit from its presence under Pastoral counseling. In this way, users will have a chance for themselves to evalute and compare the different forms of counseling. Timmillr 13:21, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• I would disagree with the proposed merge. As a woman I cannot be a pastoral counselor, but I can certainly be a nouthetic counselor. The Bible speaks of all believers who are walking with the Lord as being 'able to admonish' or competent to counsel. Let's not narrow the category to 'Pastoral' rather leave Nouthetic Counseling as a seperate entity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.150.5 (talk) 11:57, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

• Why can't a women be a "pastoral counselor"? Many denominations allow women "ministers, rabbis, priests", let alone "other persons", so there would appear to be no hard and fast restriction. And if you disagree with "Pastoral counseling" as the general term, what would you accept? Because there is simply not enough coverage here to support multiple articles. Would you prefer Nouthetic Counseling to be deleted? Because that's the alternative. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 15:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

• Merge - I agree with Hrafn. There are not three articles here. There does seem to be one article with multiple parts describing multiple variations or subsets of this type of counseling. Since "Pastoral counseling" seems to me to be the most general, that would be the title I prefer. (As Timmillr noted, Nouthetic/Biblical Counseling does seem to be a subset of pastoral counseling.) In response to 199.212.150.5, I don't think we have to view the word "Pastoral" as meaning the counseling is being done by an ordained pastor. I would argue that anyone doing "Biblical counseling", "Nouthetic counseling", or "Christian counseling" is doing something "pastoral" in the colloquial sense of the word (which is what WP should use, not whatever definition of "pastoral" 199.212.150.5 might subscribe to for theological reasons) . Any theological, professional, or other distinctions can be addressed in the article. If the article gets too long and covers too much with sources, etc. (obviously not the problem now), it can be split as discussed at WP:SUMMARY. In the meantime, the more specific terms can be redirects to the pastoral article, maybe even to particular sections of it, and the lead/definition of "pastoral counseling" in this article can be expanded accordongly to cover this all (and to include non-ordained people). Novaseminary (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose merge. These are very different approaches. The Pastoral counseling article defines the subject by saying, "What distinguishes pastoral counseling from other forms of counseling and psychotherapy is the role and accountability of the counselor and his or her understanding and expression of the pastoral relationship." A proponent of Biblical counseling would totally disagree with this, so the point of it not fitting the definition of "pastoral counseling." StAnselm (talk) 03:26, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Good point. What about merging Biblical counseling (which seems to be strictly Christian as used) into Christian counseling? Even if pastoral counseling is different (both more and less broad in different aspects), Biblical counseling seems to be a subect of Christian counseling. Novaseminary (talk) 03:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge I would propose first that you change this article Pastoral counseling to "Spiritual Counseling", "Regligious Counseling" or even "Faith Based Counseling." One thing it is not is pastoral (Note: the wikipedia article here even notes that Pastoral is a predominantly Christian term and right off the go in this article we see that rabbis, imams, and other religious leaders are included in this.) This article clearly cannot be merged with Christian counseling since it's inclusive of other religions and for the same reason it wouldn't fit with Biblical counseling. On a side note, Christian counseling cannot be merged with Biblical counseling because many groups such as Nouthetic Counseling would argue that not all Christian Counseling is Biblical Counseling. Biblical Counseling is the broad grouping of those that counsel with the Bible. Though the extent that one uses the Bible in their counseling and whether integrated with psychology or not will determine if it is of a general Christian nature or Nouthetic nature. Buytruth (talk) 11:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose merge for Nouthetic counseling since it covers a topic that doesn't fit the definition in the lede here. -- 202.124.74.62 (talk) 09:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Because of the closed AfD at Biblical counseling/Nouthetic counseling, the related page moves and redirects, the better sourcing at Nouthetic counseling, and the apparent lack of consensus for the last six months, I am removing the proposed merger banners. Of course, anybody can re-propose, but I don't think the above talk (including my !vote in favor of merging which I no longer favor) won't be useful on its own. Novaseminary (talk) 02:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pastoral counseling/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article states "Most pastoral counselors hold secular counseling credentials, as opposed to many Christian Counselors." This statement would not be verifiable, because it is not true. The statement is likely made from a position of bias against Christian Counseling. In most states, there are laws governing psychotherapy, and for someone to provide mental health services they must have secular counseling credentials. Pastoral Counselors are not required to be licensed psychotherapists, so unlike Christian counselors, they do not need secular credentials.Billkmfcc 17:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC) If that's true, then it should be taken out. I am not very knowledgeable of this field, but I tried to incorporate what you said in the main article. Edit at accurate will. JesseStu 16:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:20, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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