Talk:Pataria
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Merge proposal
editPatarine and Pataria cover the same subject. I don’t have any clear view on what the merged article should be called, though I incline towards Paterines. —Ian Spackman 21:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm biassed, but I favour "Pataria", the name of the movement over the name of the individuals of the movement (which also varies in spelling). Srnec 03:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Most people encountering the movement through historical books (e.g. the works of R.I. Moore) will encounter the word "Patarenes", I would suggest that as the most likely users of the page this could be adopted 129.67.129.33 (talk) 08:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Pataria and Cathars
editYou say Pataria was influenced by Cathars: however pataria exploded in 1070, whilst the first evidence of Cathars dates to 1143. Lele giannoni (talk) 12:54, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
- It's the other way around, Cathars were infuenced by Patarenes. And both were gnostic sects. The article should mention this.198.1.196.24 (talk) 07:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- We need a reliable secondary source (WP:RS) to confirm that the patarenes were gnostic and that they influenced the Cathars. The Patrenes were a reform movement within the Catholic Church, while the Cathars were independent of the Church. There were other reform groups active at the time such as Arnoldists, Petrobrusians, Henricans – see Heresy in Christianity#Medieval heresies. The Patrenes were not declared heretical, which they certainly would have been if they were gnostic – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 15:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
I have revised the article to hopefully make it clear that different groups are called by the same/similar name, and these had entirely different natures. The Pope was on the side of the Pateria against the Archbishop of Milan, not the Pateria were against the Pope. I cannot see any evidence or grounds why they could be called heretical or even schismatic. Looking through various sources, I seems to me there is a good deal of fudging where people who want to find proto-protestant groups carelessly graft on anachronous motivations: such as assuming that if a group is fighting the local Bishop they must be fighting the Pope or the episcopal system and they therefore must be heretics.- Editors should be careful on sources here, as there is clearly NPOV stuff going on, and a confusion and conflation of groups from different regions and times but with similar names. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- We need a reliable secondary source (WP:RS) to confirm that the patarenes were gnostic and that they influenced the Cathars. The Patrenes were a reform movement within the Catholic Church, while the Cathars were independent of the Church. There were other reform groups active at the time such as Arnoldists, Petrobrusians, Henricans – see Heresy in Christianity#Medieval heresies. The Patrenes were not declared heretical, which they certainly would have been if they were gnostic – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 15:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Etymology
editIt is not that unclear, at least, Encyclopedia.com claims Pataria was the name of a quarter of Milan, and Vilfrido Pareto claimed it was a poor quarter. This makes perfect sense, that poor people would start a movement against corruption and greed, and their opponents would dub them the equivalent of "slum-dwellers". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.67.226.33 (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)