Talk:Paul Cadmus

Jared French

I added some about Jared French, who was an important part of Cadmus' early life. Artemis-Arethusa 21:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The Fleet's In!

Uh, where is this "homosexual couple" in The Fleet's In!? All I can see is a bunch of carousing sailors and prostitutes, which, given the Navy's objections at the time, was enough to cause controversy.--172.190.130.58 (talk) 16:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Christian William Miller for deletion

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Alex Shih^Talk 04:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Christian William Miller

Christian William Miller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)

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Biography of a person with a dubious and highly subjective notability claim ("the most beautiful man in the gay social scene of New York City", sez who?) and no strong reliable source coverage about him to support it. The references here are all either primary sources or glancing namechecks of his existence, except for one which completely fails to mention him at all but instead is here solely to support a completely tangential claim about the age of a company he worked for. There's simply nothing here that passes a notability criterion: nothing in the article body passes WP:NARTIST, and nothing in the sourcing satisfies WP:GNG. Bearcat (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• Keep: The sentence "the most beautiful man in the gay social scene of New York City" is taken from different sources:

- first source: The Gay Metropolis: The Landmark History of Gay Life in America by Charles Kaiser; Kaiser's background to ascertain his Curriculum is on his page here on Wikipedia.

- other sources: Glenway Wescott Personally: A Biography by Jerry Rosco

- Digressions on Some Poems by Frank O'Hara: A Memoir by Joe LeSueur

- A Heaven of Words: Last Journals, 1956–1984, by Glenway Wescott

- Intimate Companions: A Triography of George Platt Lynes, Paul Cadmus and Lincoln Kirstein, by David Leddick

- Gay Gotham: Art and Underground Culture in New York, by Donald Albrecht, ‎Stephen Vider

- Paul Cadmus: the male nude, by Justin Spring

I think above are enough to prove "the claim".

As for being only "primary source", other than the Papers at OAC, and BTW Papers have always been considered good sources, I provided other 5 sources, which are not primary:

- The Gay Metropolis: The Landmark History of Gay Life in America by Charles Kaiser

- "William H. Miller, Jr. Chair c. 1944". MoMA. Retrieved 30 July 2017. (I hope the MoMa website is considered a reliable source...)

- Leddick, David (2015). Intimate Companions: A Triography of George Platt Lynes, Paul Cadmus, Lincoln Kirstein, and Their Circle. Macmillan. Retrieved 30 July 2017.

- Sale. Sotheby's (Firm). 1982. p. 257. Retrieved 30 July 2017.

- Johnson, Una E. (1968). Paul Cadmus: Prints and Drawings, 1922-1967. Brooklyn Museum. p. 18. Retrieved 30 July 2017.

and they are only 5 since I did not want to repeat myself and I did not included 5 different sources of above.

therefore the claim of being not notable or relying on primary source does not stand.--Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The fact that a person was considered beautiful enough to model for artists is not proof that he was objectively the most beautiful — a statement that's completely unquantifiable, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Different people will have different opinions about who's the most beautiful member of any given group of people, and none of them can ever be objectively proven right or wrong. And on the matter of the sources, what you're missing is that they don't contain substantive content about him — all of the ones that aren't primary sources simply namecheck his existence on one or two pages without being about him to the degree needed to get over WP:GNG. And MoMA's own website is a primary source on the matter of its own holdings — the simple existence of one piece in one gallery is not an NARTIST pass in and of itself, so to get a Wikipedia article on that basis there would have to be evidence of media writing about the chair's presence in the MoMA collection, not just a directory entry on MoMA's own self-published website about itself. Bearcat (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

- American Design - Page 33 - https://books.google.it/books?isbn=087070740X, Russell Flinchum, ‎Museum of Modern Art (New York, N.Y.) - 2008

- Objects of Design from The Museum of Modern Art, https://books.google.it/books?isbn=0870706969, Paola Antonelli, ‎Museum of Modern Art (New York, N.Y.), ‎Harriet Schoenholz Bee - 2003

- The Ordinary as Objects of Desire: MoMA Looks Back at Everyday ..., www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/arts/design/05desi.html

- MoMA REVISITS WHAT 'GOOD DESIGN' WAS OVER 50 YEARS LATER, https://www.moma.org/documents/moma_press-release_387178.pdf, "printed textiles (1946), low-cost furniture (1948), and lighting (1950), ... William H. Miller, Jr., George Nakashima, and Davis J. Pratt; lamps by Greta Von Nessen .."

- The Grove Encyclopedia of Materials and Techniques in Art, https://books.google.it/books?isbn=0195313917, Gerald W. R. Ward - 2008 - ‎Art, "1916–17; New York, Museum of Modern Art) and subsequently for many other ... art divide, for example the inflatable chair designed by William H. Miller (c. 1944 ..."

- What Was Good Design? MoMA's Message 1944-56 | DeTnk, www.detnk.com/node/3621, "Chair by William H. Miller c.1944 - Manufactured by Gallohur ... Exploring MoMA's legacy in the Good Design debate, 'What Was Good Design?"

- The Nature of Motion | DisegnoDaily, https://www.disegnodaily.com/article/the-nature-of-motion, "Lynn's chair was shown as part of The Nature of Motion, ... “Then I found a picture of a chair by William H. Miller, which is in MoMA's collection."

And these are only the first 7 hits about the Chair, exhibited more than once as an important piece of 1940s design.

You stated the claim of being "the most beautiful man" was unsourced, I proved the claim is not unsourced. Sure, we have all our opinions and perceptions, nevertheless Bill Miller is mention more than once in published books as the most beautiful man in NYC in the 1940s. He was a sought after model for many important artists, and his portraits are sold on auctions at high prices still today.

He was the lover of Alfred Kinsey, considered one of the most important researchers on Gender studies.

Last but not the least, he was also an inventor for the Navy... his invention did not survive the past of time, but still, it was something that he did other than being beautiful.--Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I did my choice for the sources, but there are many hits if you google "Bill Miller" Gay New York (unfortunately Bill Miller is a very common name):

- The Gay Metropolis - The New York Times, www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kaiser-metropolis.html, "Three decades later, Merrick wrote The Lord Won't Mind, one of the first gay novels to .... Bill Miller is also famous among his contemporaries as one of the most ..."

- Student Research in Beinecke Collections | Beinecke Rare Book ..., beinecke.library.yale.edu/about/blogs/room.../student-research-beinecke-collections, "on the personal testimonials of gay men in the course of his research, including William "Bill" Miller, a gay model and artist living in New York."

- Bill Miller, musa gay di scrittori ed artisti - Queerblog, www.queerblog.it › Arte e cultura, "La bellezza gli bastò per conquistare la New York più intellettuale, la Parigi più sfavillante di ingegni e talenti."

- John Goodwin - Gay History Wiki, gayhistory.wikidot.com/john-goodwin, "Born John Blair Linn Goodwin February 25, 1912 in New York to a prominent .... Tennessee and Frank came, and Paul Cadmus and Bill Miller ..."

- Rachel Wilf Topics in Lesbian and Gay History Professor ... (PDF) - citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.603.4846&rep=rep1..., ‎"William “Bill” Miller was a gay model and artist who acted as a ... the Institute in Bloomington, and saw Kinsey during his visits to New York City."

- Kinseys Gay Entree | Advocate.com, www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/books/2010/05/25/kinseys-gay-entree, "When Kinsey came to New York, one thing that interested him was the social ... Bill Miller, the handsome model, sometimes joined the group."

- Search results for: Cadmus Paul, page 1 | Collections Search Center ..., collections.si.edu/search/results.htm?q=Cadmus+Paul&view=&date.slider..., "Artist: Paul Cadmus, born New York City 1904-died Weston, CT 1999. Medium: etching on ..... view Bill Miller [drawing] / (photographed by Peter A. Juley & Son."

- Paul Cadmus - Portrait of Bill Miller (Christian William Miller) at 1stdibs, https://www.1stdibs.com/art/drawings-watercolor...bill-miller.../id-a_1641813/, "In May 1951, Miller officially changed his name to Christian William Miller. Miller was known in the 1940's New York gay social scene as being one of the most ..."

- View George Platt Lynes art prices and auction results - Invaluable, https://www.invaluable.com/artist/lynes-george-platt.../sold-at-auction-prices/, "His first exhibition was held in 1933 by the Julian Levy Gallery, New York, and .... William Miller (Bill Miller) was a member of the literary, artistic and gay circles of ..."

shall I continue?--Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I further improved the article for the WP:NARTIST check and the result are as following:

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors --> YES

The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique. --> YES

The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. --> YES

The person's work (or works) either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. --> YES, b (2 exhibition at the MoMA) and c (The Times) and partially d (Permanent collection MoMA)--Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:03, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 19:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 19:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in Talk:George_Platt_Lynes#Nomination_of_Christian_William_Miller_for_deletion. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in Talk:Paul_Cadmus#Nomination_of_Christian_William_Miller_for_deletion. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:58, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in Talk:Glenway_Wescott#Nomination_of_Christian_William_Miller_for_deletion. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Photography-related deletion discussions. Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in Talk:Charles_Kaiser#Nomination_of_Christian_William_Miller_for_deletion. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• Is it possible to have a further opinion other than mine and Bearcat on this AfD? my point is that, the fact an openly gay man was working in military projects known by the like of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Winston Churchill in the 1940s AND that the same man was later muse to artists AND partecipated to the Alfred Kinsey's research projects on sexuality AND that his designs were exhibited at the MoMA (and one is still there) are all strong points for the article to survive. But I would like to hear other opinion other than me and Bearcat. I improve the article to make all above more evident.--Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Keep: He sails over #2 of WP:ANYBIO "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." He has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in many fields: invention and design, a social, political, and artistic movement, and in a revolutionary sex study. His personal papers and materials are in the museum/library of USC and Yale because he is a central figure worthy of ongoing historical research. If he is good enough for Yale...Skistud (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment "in a revolutionary sex study". This would I suppose be Kinsey's book. Two sources are given in the article for this claim. One, Google doesn't let me read. The other barely mentions Miller. -- Hoary (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Hoary, You can read the whole Wilf's essay "Social Change through Science: Homosexual Activism Influencing the Kinsey Report" here: http://www.library.yale.edu/~nkuhl/YCALStudentWork/Wilf%20Lesbian-Gay-History.pdf at the Yale Database.--Elisa.rolle (talk) 15:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

This looks interesting, but it appears to be undergraduate work. Wikipedia doesn't normally employ even masters' theses; undergraduate essays should not be cited. What wide recognition is there in reliable sources that he was a major factor in Kinsey's study? -- Hoary (talk) 22:32, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

The correspondence with Kinsey, referred in the thesis is at the OAC - Onlive Archive of California (http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt9j49s426/)

Other material, again letters and photos, are at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library within the Glenway Wescott papers (http://hdl.handle.net/10079/fa/beinecke.wescott)

The fact is reported in: Glenway Wescott Personally: A Biography, https://books.google.it/books?isbn=0299177343, Jerry Rosco

Intimate Companions: A Triography of George Platt Lynes, Paul Cadmus and Lincoln Kirstein, https://books.google.it/books?isbn=1250104785, David Leddick

But above all in Sex the Measure of All Things: A Life of Alfred C. Kinsey, https://books.google.it/books?isbn=0253337348, Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy--Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:15, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

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