Talk:Paweł Holszański

Latest comment: 1 year ago by BD2412 in topic Requested move 12 March 2023

Notable?

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Paweł Holszański -wikipedia google search of English pages gives exactly zero hits. Two links that pop-up are irrelevant to whoever this is. Please prove notabiliuty before removing the tag. --Irpen 06:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Actually as notable as any Polish magnate in this project is. The Olshansky were a great family, rather Lithuanian than Polish, though. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Very well, I think any magnate is indeed notable. It was nopt clear to me from the article. Perhaps an unusual spelling? Anyway, thanks. --Irpen 08:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

I believe that to you Irpen and Ghirlandajo it should be no surprise that particular user is pushing his polish pov. M.K. 09:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, he would be notable if he wasn't Polish, but now that he is nothing can be done. Being a prince and a bishop of the second largest bishopric in Central Europe at the time is not enough to be notable. One would apparently have to be a Russian Orthodox bishop to be notable enough, right? //Halibutt 19:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
Was he really Polish? What about Ruthenian name? Polish language was not officialy used in GDL at the time Alšėniškai/Olshanski lived Iulius 07:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Halibutt, I apologize for doubting his notability but it was not fully my fault. Due to the unusual way his name is spelled, it received zero (!) counts in google when I restricted the search to English sites. By doubts of notability vanished as soon as I figured that he was of Olshanski family. For my non-trained mind the connection between Holszański and Olshanski is not straightforward. --Irpen 07:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Since he was a Lithuanian magnate, wouldn't Olshanski/y be better then Holszański?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
Discussed and, hopefully, resolved at talk:Olshanski. --Irpen 18:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Alšėniškiai leads to Olshanski. It's poor editing, isn't it? Xx236 08:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Paweł is Polish writing. Any sources? Xx236 08:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Vilnius?

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Xx236 11:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

One at a time, pls. Let's first agree whether we can ammend the last name to reflect the family he came from. --Irpen 18:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
A straw poll ? This is really stupid, I know. --Lysytalk 19:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 12 March 2023

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 19:58, 26 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Paweł HolszańskiPovilas Alšėniškis – He was a Lithuanian noble and Lithuanian version of his name is Povilas Alšėniškis (e.g. see: Lithuanian encyclopedic source) which is the WP:COMMONNAME (19,000 results in Google search). The Polish variant of his name Paweł Holszański gives only 12,200 results in Google search, so such Polonization of a Lithuanian noble name here is absolutely unjustified per Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines (e.g. WP:NPOV, etc.). Povilas Alšėniškis currently is a redirect page, thus this renaming should be performed by an administrator. -- Pofka (talk) 14:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Google Search:
Paweł Holszański: 455 results
Povilas Alšėniškis: 104 results
Google Scholar:
Paweł Holszański gives 13 resutls in Google Scholar
Povilas Alšėniškis gives only 4 results in Google Scholar
Google Books:
Paweł Holszański gives 142 results
Povilas Alšėniškis gives only 65 results
The family was pretty early Ruthenized and adopted Orthodoxy (since Ivan Olshansky, who died in 1402) but later generations adopted Catholicism and Polish language, hence the Polish sounding name is so popular. Pretty standard story for the region. Also Robert I. Frost, The Oxford History of Poland-Lithuania, p. 84: Most were Catholics, but Vytautas assigned the greatest prize of Kyiv to his Orthodox brother-in-law Ivan Holshansky, son of one of Algirdas’s followers from the Ruthenianized Alseniskai family of Lithuanian kunigaiksciaiMarcelus (talk) 09:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Search of Google Books provide just 12 results (links to books) and three sources are only partly English (1, 2, 3), so we only have 9 sources which clearly is not a "significant majority" (required per guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME). Same thing with Google Scholar. -- Pofka (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Support per my initial request because of plenty of reasons:
1) WP:COMMONNAME clearly is Povilas Alšėniškis (Lithuanian language version) per Google search: Povilas Alšėniškis (19,000 results) and Paweł Holszański (11,400 results). So nearly twice more common. The Google Scholar has too few results to make decisions based on it and to ignore Google search which provide many Lithuanian sources. Marcelus, really? In the Google search you purposefully selected "Search pages in English only" to create such result and this way excluded all sources in the Lithuanian language (and other languages)? There are no valid reasons to exclude Lithuanian sources about this Lithuanian noble.
2) Article about this person in the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia use name Povilas Alšėniškis (see this article here). Of course if you search English-only sources in the Google search it will exclude such notable Lithuanian encyclopedic source.
3) Article about this person in the Lithuanian Wikipedia also use Lithuanian version of his name (see: lt:Povilas Alšėniškis).
4) He was a Lithuanian noble. See dedicated article about this Lithuanian noble family: Alšėniškiai.
5) Polonization of Lithuanians names is not WP:NPOV, especially when it clearly violate WP:COMMONNAME.
6) Polish variant of his name (Paweł Holszański) should be presented in brackets in the text of this article. I do not oppose that. -- Pofka (talk) 17:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ad 1) WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources); also I don't know how you are doing your google test, because not limiting it to English only pages it's still 2,820 results for Paweł Holszański, and 1,230 results for Povilas Alšėniškis.
Ad 2) That's great, but it isn't English-language source, also Lithuanian source often Lithuanize names that aren't, for example Napoleon I is called there Napoleonas I
The rest is explained by the WP:COMMONNAME, Alšėniškiai or rather Holszański family was Polonised in 15th century and Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble, that's why the Polish version of his name is so popular, because that's the name he was using himself. Marcelus (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Evidence regarding Google search by Google searching today (see screenshots). And about your statement that "Holszański family was Polonised in 15th century and Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble": can you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS precisely stating that this Lithuanian noble (and bishop of Lithuania's capital Vilnius) Povilas Alšėniškis spoke only Polish language and not Lithuanian? Otherwise, it is your personal WP:OR and you should cross that out. -- Pofka (talk) 18:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
I have totally different Google result, nonetheless English only pages matters, because it's English Wikipedia Marcelus (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
No, all pages matters. So will you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS I requested to support your claim with exact quote stating that "Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble" (your edit)? -- Pofka (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Unfortunately not, WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) Marcelus (talk) 20:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Marcelus: Are you saying that all sources given in the Google search by selecting "Search pages in English only" in it are "independent, reliable English-language sources"? The first page of such Google search provide links to Wikipedia, Wikidata, Wikiwand, Wikimedia, while the second page gives results from Pinterest, Wikimapia, etc. So are you sure?
Your test of Google Scholar clearly proven that there are not enough "reliable English-language sources" to determine "significant majority". So "generally prefers" exception is clearly not applicable in this situation about Povilas Alšėniškis.
Moreover, so will you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS I requested to support your claim with exact quote stating that "Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble" (your edit)? -- Pofka (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm certain that if you choose "Search pages in English only", all of them aren't reliable most likely, but the same goes for your results. Although I am certain that if you make search for English only results in Google Scholar then you will get mostly "independent, reliable English-language sources". That's why I proposed it in the first place Marcelus (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Marcelus: My Google search without selecting "Search pages in English only" provide the most common version used in all sources in addition to a version used by the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia because there are not enough "reliable English-language sources" to determine "significant majority".
By the way, so will you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS I requested to support your claim with exact quote stating that "Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble" (your edit)? -- Pofka (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
A few hundred results from English Google Search pages, plus 142 vs. 65 from English Google Books seems like good enough numver to settle WP:COMMONNAME. Marcelus (talk) 18:44, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Marcelus: Your given search of Google Books (link) provide just 12 results (links to books) and three sources are only partly English (1, 2, 3), so we only have 9 sources which clearly is not a "significant majority".
So will you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS I requested to support your claim with exact quote stating that "Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble" (your edit)? -- Pofka (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
No, it's 142 results in Google Books, try to open the link in incognito mode. (Also all relevant info about Holszański are within the article you can find it there, I expand it quite significantly recently). Marcelus (talk) 19:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
So, Google counts are getting really weird. I clicked on your links and I get 1,070 for Povilas Alšėniškis and 2,530 for Paweł Holszański. After I added quotes, we get 937 and 1,160, more balanced. But I have always been uneasy with this type of counting. Poland is several times more populous than Lithuania, that skews the count. We should control for English results only, but when I do so I don't get a count at all. And I see below you guys got a count at Google Books - I can't see it in my GBooks interface :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
It's better to use incognito mode, than the results aren't skewed, to see the results count you need to click "Tools" button Marcelus (talk) 16:12, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.