Talk:Peace and Truce of God

Topic sentence for first paragraph

"The Peace and Truce of God movement was a weapon in the Church's arsenal to Christianize and pacify the feudal structures of society through non-violent means."

Two questions: 1. Is the irony here intentional? and 2. Whether or not it is intentional, is it appropriate? I find the notion of a non-violent arsenal rather distracting and confusing, better suited to a pet thesis than a Wikipedia entry. Thoughts? Aventuremacher 19:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC) aventuremacher (Jonathan)

Thoughts on dividing articles

I'm expecting some obsessing fool to come along any day and create two Wikipedia entries. One for Peace of God and one for Truce of God. --Wetman 04:11, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

An even more obsessing fool would combine and create re-directs. Stbalbach 10:32, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Redirects are designed for the reader— who gets forgotten sometimes at Wikipedia. Extra, unnecessary redirects are harmlessly invisible. Conversely, information that's repeatedly divided becomes a litter of useless factoids. Assemble the meaningless fragments and you start to have a form of history again. --Wetman 22:56, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gibbon

There are many translations of Gibbon, but there is no "right" version, even he continued to change and edit with each release during his lifetime. The Gutenburg version is from an 1845 edition by Rev. H.H. Milman. The Womersley edition is thought to be the closest edition to his original words, if thats your intent, but I bowed to the clarity of the idea as found in the recent Mueller edition. Stbalbach 04:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why is Gibbon being quoted? The information he is providing is solely incidental. Unless there is historical evidence and analysis backing up the idea that the Truce of God or the Peace of God were indeed created in imitation of this pagan tradition it is just conjecture. That sort of conjecture misrepresents the origins of the name." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tempestswordsman (talk • contribs) 02:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Treuga/Tregua

This is the first time I see the Latin expression for Truce of God written as "Treuga Dei". So far, all the written sources I've read used the spelling "Tregua", inherited by Neo-Latin languages (Portuguese "Tregoa", Spanish "Tregua", Provenzal "Tregua", Italian "Trégua/Tréigua"... Catalan "Treva" and French "Trêve" show vacilation between W and V) and consistent with the W > GU rule followed in the Latinization of Germanic words (Walter > Gualterius, William > Gu[i]lielmus). Etimologia: tregua,triegua lists more variations (both ancient and modern) of the word, most of them more similar to "Tregu-/Trew-/Trev-" than to "Treug-". I'm inclined to believe that the preferred Medieval Latin word for "Truce" was "Tregua" rather than "Treuga". Cngsoft 19:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen "tregua" in Latin, it's always "treuga". Even a quick Google search produces nothing in Latin for "tregua dei", but plenty for "treuga dei". Adam Bishop 19:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't want to bring Google to the discussion, but I actually searched those words before editing anything. Tregua Dei returns "about 1,250,000 for Tregua Dei" while Treuga Dei returns "about 12,600 for Treuga Dei". Cngsoft 20:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes but look at what the results are. "Tregua dei" is always Italian or Spanish or some other Romance language. "Treuga dei" gives results in Latin (or other languages using the Latin term directly). Adam Bishop 20:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that "tregua" distorts the figures because it's the predominant form in Romance languages (whose origin is Latin) over "treuga" (that mostly appears in texts written in English, German and Polish, that aren't Romance) we can refine our search with two Latin words that no Romance language kept unmodified, "Pax" (Peace) and "Bellum" (War): Tregua Pax returns "about 45,300 for Tregua Pax" and Treuga Pax returns "about 510 for Treuga Pax", while Tregua Bellum gives "about 13,800 for Tregua Bellum" and Treuga Bellum gives "about 613 for Treuga Bellum". Maybe "treuga" and "tounge" belong to the same kind of typo. Cngsoft 14:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes but you are still getting mostly Spanish or Italian results that way...have you tried searching for the specific phrase "treuga dei"? Rather than typing in two random words? And anyway, this is mostly irrelevant. Have you checked any books or articles on the topic? The phrase is "treuga dei". Adam Bishop 18:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

If I hadn't read books and articles about this subject I wouldn't have ever cared about this article or the typos in it, and all those texts consistently wrote "Tregua Dei", no matter they were written by Manuel Ballesteros, Mario Procopio, Ernest J. Görlich or others. But a bibliography would be dismissed as easily as everything else I've already said, so I give up. The already existing redirection Tregua Dei should be good enough for everyone. Cngsoft 14:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ballesteros writes in Spanish, so that's not surprising. Procopio presumably writes in Italian? I can't find anything by him. Germans usually seem to use "treuga" so I don't know why Gorlich would write "tregua". Du Cange's Glossay of Medieval Latin has it under "treuga" though. Adam Bishop 16:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Former duplicate stub article

During the medieval period the Catholic Church in Europe applied spiritual sanctions to limit the violence of private war in feudal society. The principal means of these sanctions were Pax Dei, "Peace of God" or Treuga Dei "The Truce of God" .

• Peace of God made violence upon holy sites such as nunneries and monasteries and upon members of the clergy as an excommunicable offense of the church.
• The Truce of God set aside certain days of the year when combat was not allowed. Sundays and holy days were first set aside as days of non-violence. --Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 17:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

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2018 Article Renewal Project

Especially to those of you who have contributed so far in 2018, without signing in. Even though I edited your edits, they were excellent contributions to the article. I hope I have preserved their intent. And I hope you will be interested in overhauling this entry. It needs (and deserves) a lot of work.

Gibbon's Thesis, for instance, is given a lot of room above the fold and at best should be relegated to something more resembling a footnote. Meanwhile, the rise of Castelan culture and the roots of feudal violence in the Viking Age should surely be given more prominence and coverage. Fb2ts (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Start-Class yes, Low-important - far from it. Fb2ts (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I propose, furthermore, that some effort should be made to make the article engaging to the average reader and that a fair number of the references cited should be relatively easy to find, in a library or bookstore. Fb2ts (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

How to restructure?

Hey everyone. I think this article could do with some reshuffling/restructuring. Currently I don't think it flows, and it's hard to tell what some of the sections are supposed to mean. Is Background supposed to be the history leading up to legal/social conditions for the movement? Why is there a quote in the introductory paragraph? I think moving paragraphs around and having clearer headings would go a long way to improving readability for this article. Gold Broth (talk) 19:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree.

The subsection on saints and the cult of relics, in particular, borders on being unintelligible altogether, and its relevance is not clear. I shall see if I can find the time to improve it.

Nikolaj1905 (talk) 14:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I have made a few improvements and simplifications. There is still much work that needs to be done on the article, but this was what I had time for.

Nikolaj1905 (talk) 12:57, 18 May 2024 (UTC)