Talk:Peel P50

Wheelbase

The Wheelbase is listed as 50 inches, which obviously is incorrect. This photo gives an idea that the P50's wheelbase is approximately its length reduced by an amount that is a bit more than one wheel diameter. KerryVeenstra 03:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Congestion Charge

In the article it is written "During the segment, Clarkson incorrectly stated that the tiny P50 is subject to the London congestion charge, unlike the much larger Lexus RX vehicle used as a camera platform, which qualifies for exemption from the charge on the grounds of its petrol-electric hybrid powerplant.[5] In fact the P50 also qualifies for exemption, under a provision allowing three-wheeled vehicles of less than 100 cm (39.4 in) width and 200 cm (78.7 in) length to enter the Congestion Charge Zone without charge.[6]"

The focus of this part of the segment was poking fun at both ludicrous congestion charge exemptions for very large vehicles.

Fuel economy

Does anyone know any information regarding the Peel P50's fuel economy? I think this will further enlighten the article.

99.237.73.149 (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The only figure I know of is the manufacturer claim that it manages 100 MPG. However I have my doubts that a smoky, overworked old 2-stroke scooter engine allied to a cabin that, though roughly the same weight as a scooter, is less aerodynamic, could quite achieve this, and it's more an advertising shill. 82.46.180.56 (talk) 02:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Actual top speed?

The boxout says 35mph / 56kmh... the main text claims 38mph / 61kmh. Now I know it's only a small discrepancy in the grand scheme of things, but which is it, if either? Or, as noted on its Top Gear appearance, does it largely depend on the driver's weight? (In which case, we should probably take the ISO/SAE certified 75kg standard human* ;-) (* not an actual unit as far as I'm aware, but it seems to be the figure stated when working out e.g. luggage capacity with a certain number of passengers, kerb weight including fuel and driver for loading and economy measurement purposes, etcetera)

broken link

^ "100% Discount for Motortricycles" (PDF), Transport for London. Retrieved on 8 January 2008. doesn't work... does anyone have a copy of the file, assuming that it is indeed a broken link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.87.176 (talk) 19:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/6733.aspx#trikes - I think this covers the contents of the link. There doesn't seem to be a need for it as congestion charge rates aren't talked about in the article.¬AKAfreaky¬ (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep advertisements out

The encyclopedia must avoid all forms of commercial sponsorship and advertising. However, it's in the nature of describing a product that we include information as regards manufacture and acquisition. As I understand Andy Carter of Nottingham is the flag-bearer for this product in it's current form and as such needs mentioning. I have no connection with him whatsoever. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 16:59, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Tell me, what part of the following statement is not an advertisement?

Andy Carter of Nottingham UK sells body-shells and a few made-to-order from £9,999 upwards.

Regarding your earlier statement in an edit summary: lets not mention Peel Engineering if we're going to be stripo-faced - Peel Engineering Company is mentioned in the article because it was the manufacturer of the product. There is a big difference between mentioning the origin of the product and saying "X from Y sells replicas for Z amount of money." Information on acquisition is completely superfluous, or, in other words, right out. I rather doubt that Wikipedia is a buyer's guide.

Not that any of the rest is relevant, but mention of "developments such as the Trident "bubble" version" is particularly irrelevant, since the Trident has an article of its own.

Also, since you insist on using the unsupported peacock term "highly collectible", can you say where it is stated that these are "highly collectible"? How collectible is "highly collectible"?

Respectfully, SamBlob (taulk) 18:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

As best I can tell, the current manufacturer of the current version of the P50 and the Trident is this guy in Nottingham. The article is incomplete without it. I know that owners of the first batches of these machines are bitterly resentful of Johny-come-latelys who think a visit to Robin Hood's Sherwood Forest entitles them to ownership of this desireable consumer item. But most of us will be on the side of those who would like to be owners of one - more importantly, we expect the encyclopedia to tell us where we can get one. Naming, placing and pricing the manufactured item is not advertising, it's simply an element essential to the article. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Please note the following: WP:NOTDIRECTORY

Telling the reader where a product is available and how much it costs is not what Wikipedia is for. That's what Google is for. In fact, you will see it right there in bold: Wikipedia is not the yellow pages.

Before you come up with the part under 4. Sales catalog that says: Examples of justified reasons include notable sales of rare collectors items, please note that, while an original Peel P50 might be a rare collector's item (or might not, especially when one compares it to the Hope Diamond or a Ferrari 250 GT Spider California SWB), a replica is definitely not one.

It's bad enough leaving the link to the seller as a reference, but it is the cited source backing up the statement about replicas supplying the residual demand, so I suppose it can't be helped (unless a secondary source, like a review of the replica, can be found).

Also, as best I can tell, there is no current manufacturer of the Peel P50, just as there is no current manufacturer of the Ferrari 250 GT Spider California SWB. There does seem to be a manufacturer of aftermarket parts and replicas, and there might actually be others. The original, however, is the notable one, and the replicas gain notability only by filling that residual demand you mention. If someone wants to find them, let Yahoo! or Google do the walking... not Wikipedia.

Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I fear that this argument would lead to an article that is less useful, indeed confusing to the reader. One can go to a show and see something most people will mistake for a valuable collectors item, a Peel P50. The article needs to say where it comes from (or may come from) - particularly since it is a vehicle which is arguably still in production, even if it is not still with the original producer (a not uncommon situation).

Separately, this has nothing to do with the advertising we're trying to avoid, which comes from someone who profits from the business, or buys its products. Or aspires to buy from the business when they get the vehicle of their dreams. I'm none of those people, I'm an editor trying to produce a well rounded article including information the reader needs or expects to know. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 07:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

So, tell me, when you want to find out where a product is sold and how much it costs, do you look in an encyclopedia? Try it with Britannica or Collier's. You'll be greatly disappointed.

From WP:NOTDIRECTORY:

"...product prices should not be quoted in an article unless they can be sourced and there is a justified reason for their mention"

This directly contradicts your idea that product prices are part of "a well rounded article including information the reader needs or expects to know."

Putting the exception I stated previously about "notable sales of rare collectors items" into context: An Oldsmobile concept car from the '50s setting a Barrett-Jackson auction record by selling for three million US dollars is a notable event. The ex-works price of a Cobra replica from Factory Five Racing is not a notable event. The price of a Carroll Shelby-authorized Cobra from Superformance is not a notable event. The price of a Ford Mondeo is not a notable event. The price of a cutlery set at Woolworth's was not a notable event, not even at their closing sale.

Regardless of your motive, anything that gives the name, price and contact information for a commodity is an advertisement, and is not to be included in a Wikipedia article.

Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm baffled - the price of the Ford Mondeo is not in the article about it. Why not? As a reader of the article it's something I expect to be told. No question of advertising there, production stopped 14 years ago.

And it's nearly the same for a collectors item still in production like the P50, I expect a (properly referenced) discussion on it's worth and price new. Readers are not stupid, they know the owners exaggerate like it was going out of fashion. But they still want to hear these guesstimates. Entire television programmes (eg Antiques Roadshow) treat the price of objects as amongst the most important things about them. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 20:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

<-removed indent

The post just before yours answers your first question. If you have read WP:NOTDIRECTORY and you still do not understand why, then there is nothing I can add that will help you.

Production of *what* stopped 14 years ago? The Ford Mondeo is still in production and the Peel P50 ended production in 1964, which would be about 45 years ago.

Why do you insist that the Peel P50 is still in production? Peel hasn't made them since 1964, Peel hasn't licensed production to anyone, so the Peel P50 is as out of production as the Ferrari 250 GTO and no amount of replica manufacturers is going to change that.

If you have material available on auction prices or private sale prices of actual Peel P50s, by all means add the information and cite the source.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, don't know what came over me to say that the Ford Mondeo is not a current model. I dimly recall that an advertisement requires name, location and price and if you include all three you are crossing some kind of line. Mention of actual auction sale prices would seem a good compromise, for when we come across such information.

I still think it's a great pity we don't use the longer version of the Jeremy Clarkson sketch, since that must account for some 90% of the entire public awareness of this device. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

How much are these "collectibles" worth?

Assuming that current values of rare and collectible items are notable, and assuming that the Peel P50 is rare and collectible enough for its current value to be notable, what prices have they sold for?

This source, BBC - Isle of Man - History - The small car with the big reputation, claims that the Peel Transport Museum bought a 1962 P50 for £10,500 in 2004 or shortly thereafter.

This source, Peel Microcars - Replicas, claims that P50s sell for "up to £25,000". However, the site belongs to a man who builds and sells replicas, so it would be in his interest to make the price of an original look higher than it is.

I looked through the other sources for the article and I didn't get any price information from them. Does anyone know were reliable information on this can be sourced? Also, can anyone confirm or refute that the initial assumptions are correct and that this information is relevant to the article?

I thank you for your time and consideration.

Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 23:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Here and here (where one must log in), the estimate of "up to £35,000" comes from an e-mail by Andy Carter (presumably 2007 and before the Clarkson price bounce - we should really contact him before taking it as RS, however). The "from 35-50K" is not dependable after all, it was added later by an IP (at a time when vandalism was rife!). On the very professionally produced YouTube video the Trident owner Grant Kerney claims he'd refuse an offer of 40,000Euro (> £35,000 at 2009 conversion rates).

Andy Carter of Nottingham writes (after MM has removed numerous line-breaks):-

• Sorry, no full kits available at the moment, but I can supply detailed pictures of the running gear with a bodyshell.
• Peel P50 and Trident Microcars. Following the appearance of my Peel P50 on Top Gear, I have been inundated with enquiries about and Peels for sale, and details about the replica cars that I build.
• To learn more about Peel cars you can see the websites: [1] [2] [3]
• Original Peel cars hardly ever come up for sale on the open market, but when they do change hands they have fetched between £18,000 and £25,000 depending on condition and model. One reputedly sold for £35,000 last year. (MM - 2006?)
• Of the 60 or so original Peel cars that still exist many are in Museums or belong to serious collectors. They are spread across the world, and only a handful are actually roadworthy in the UK.
• I have been building bubblecar replicas over the past 20 years, mostly for collectors and overseas customers. They look exactly like the originals, and can have the same original spec. engine or a modern electric start auto drive scooter engines fitted.
• A standard new Peel replica would not pass the current UK SVA rules so my replicas cannot be used on UK roads without modification. Only ones that were built prior to the new laws can legally be used as standard spec. New SVA laws require items like hydraulics brakes all round with separate handbrake mechanisms. Also a 4 stroke engine would best suit the new emissions regulations. It would be possible to build a new Peel to current SVA standards, but it would not be like the original in every sense. Despite Jeremy's kind words, a Peel is not suitable for everyday use, it is cramped, noisy, handles atrociously, and the little wheels are best suited to smooth roads.
• OK, if I have not put you off and you still want one, the cheapest option would be to buy a complete body-shell from me and do the rest yourself.
• The Peel P50 shell is about £1,400 and the Trident shell with dome and screen is £2,200. I can supply lights, trim, badges, upholstery etc at extra cost. No fancy build manuals, sorry. Complete drive away replica cars (both Peel P50 and Trident) are just under £10,000 in any colour. Tinted domes and special engine options are extra.
• I only build cars to order, and require a 50% deposit with order. I am not in a position to offer complete kits for self build at the moment. I do have a substantial quantity of original Peel parts and offer a restoration service.
• Sorry for the non-personal nature of this information, but I do not have time to answer all first enquiries individually. Andy Carter. Nottingham UK

Assuming the content of Andy Carter's e-mail is genuine and he really has "a substantial quantity of original parts", then I'd propose that this man/(company Modern Microcars) is the legitimate heir of Peel Engineering, he is the current manufacturer and we should treat him as such. Even if he bought all the bits at auction and has never met anyone from the Isle of Man (unlikely), he'd still be the legitimate heir. (Then there's the further question of using his name in the article and publishing his price, I can't get my head around that one but I can't see an obvious problem either - it's undoubtedly one of the first things people want to know). ---> MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 09:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Minimum driving age in the Isle of Man in the 1960s?

The Peel looks so improbably small, I need to ask about the driving age on that island back in the '60s. Apparently a child could drive to 1st grade in one, because even go-karts rival its size. I know that decades ago, driving ages weren't as universal. I even read that America did not have a firm driving age until 1940. --70.179.174.101 (talk) 10:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

The driving age in the Isle of Man in the 1960s was 16. Dabbler (talk) 00:57, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

What?

"In 2011, businessmen Gary Hillman and Faizal Khan went to Dragons' Den, asking for £80,000. They got what they wanted, and started working away. For a short period of time, there were three models available; Gas, Eco, and Fun."

What did these businessmen want/get the money for? To buy the rights to the design? To set up production? To market the product? To vacation in Barbados? All of the above?

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an encyclopedia. Readers are not supposed to infer connections. They are supposed to be explicitly told what is there to be told. Will someone who knows what happened please tell us without all the gaps?

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 19:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Not smallest?

What car is the new record holder for smallest production car then? // Liftarn (talk)

That's a good question. At other wikis(language), there is a claim that the Smart Fortwo would be, but comparing the given measurements(or even using your EYES) show quite clearly that that is nonsense.85.229.60.8 (talk) 09:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if Guinness ever acknowledged or defined a record for the smallest production car, but few would argue that the P50 would still hold that record as a car that anyone could go and buy that was in regular series production. The record for the smallest roadworthy car is the only one currently listed on the Guinness website. Although the record holder shown ("Wind Up" made by Perry Watkins based on a Postman Pat kiddies ride) is not the one other sources on the net state is the current record holder ("IM BIG" made by Austin Coulson with a 57 Chevy style stroller body). Mighty Antar (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I've now had a chance to check a few back issues of the Guinness book. The only copy I could find which lists a "smallest production car" is the 2010 issue, the previous issues I was able to check list largest & fastest, but nothing about smallest. The 2011 issue doesn't list "smallest production car", but lists a "smallest roadworthy car". In the absence of a definitive list of "smallest car" record categories, and with the Guinness website currently undergoing a revamp, I think it's safe to assume that these are probably two entirely different records and that the "smallest production car" remains with the Peel P50 manufactured from 1962 to 1965. I have reinstated this point accordingly. Mighty Antar (talk) 20:13, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

196x

The article starts off with the claim that The Peel P50 is a three-wheeled microcar originally manufactured from 1962 to 1965 [...], yet later a paragraph has the headline 1962-66. So when did the original production run end, 1965 or 1966? Thanks, Maikel (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Two-stroker?

Am I assuming correctly that the original (DKW) engine was two-stroke? Thanks, Maikel (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

annual production

The article states that the company sells about fifteen P50s annually (as of 2018), plus about "ten or so" of the Trident. That can't be accurate - only 25 total cars per year? I just checked their website, and it states they are making available 50 cars of a limited edition called the P50 Spyder. How can a limited edition version be more than the normal output? How could a company even survive on only producing 25 vehicles? Elsquared (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Elsquared, I looked superficially for a reference. Production can’t be high. The whole UK produced less than 100,000 car, truck, coach, etc. in 2016 by two sources. —¿philoserf? (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory figures

The figures in the infobox and the main text are contradictory - top speed either 38 mph or 28 mph etc. Which ones are correct? JezGrove (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Street legality in the US

The article simply states "it is street legal in the US" without a citation. Given that the US is very strict about imported cars and microcars, this deserves to have a source confirming it. Xatzimi (talk) 03:39, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

the US is very strict about cars that are allowed to be imported and sold on the market, they need to meet numerous requirements to be legal. You need to undergo all the crash testing, emissions, the lights and glass and seatbelts need to meet various requirements. And many states have even stricter regulations, like California. However, for personally imported grey-market cars it is not at all difficult to get them legal to drive, they don't come and make sure your car has passed Federal crash inspections and has fixed headlamps and safety glass before it can be registered. Of course it depends on the state, they all have different requirements to register a vehicle. In some, as long as it passes an emissions test, it's legal to register it (although you may get a ticket for improper equipment if you don't have turn signals for example). Other states it only has to pass an annual safety inspection. But none of these enforce Federal import requirements, that's how we have so many grey market imports driving on the roads that could not be legally imported and sold in the US, and how people do things like building their own cars and trucks.

I agree that it's a pretty dubious statement however. It's very unlikely that it underwent Federal testing (although it may be exempt as it is under a certain weight), and whether it's street legal or not depends entirely on which state you are in. You can drive ATVs on the road in New Hampshire, but not in most states. Idumea47b (talk) 01:58, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

What emissions regulations?

"The conventional piston engined P50 is more requested in the UK, priced at £14,879 – whereas greater demand for the Peel comes from the US, where the electric model (at £13,679) helps owners to comply with emissions regulations"

What regulations? I don't know of any state in the US that regulates individual automobile owners emissions in a manner that would require them to buy an electric car "to comply with emissions regulations". In some states they test emissions, that just means your car can't have excessive levels for the type of car. If it fails you don't need to go buy an electric car to pass the test. You can maybe avoid the requirement to do emissions tests if you have an electric vehicle, but CAFE standards apply to the car makers, not the public.

I assume what they mean is that the piston engine model will not pass emissions tests in many states, so people who live in those states opt for the electric version instead. In which case, again, they are avoiding, not complying with, emissions regulations. Idumea47b (talk) 02:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)