Talk:Peel tower/Archive 1

Improvements

Could do with something on:

• Geographical spread and number once existing and still extant
• Border reivers
• Other examples of good ones
• origin of the term and is it consistently used
• um?

Nevilley 08:27 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)

This is good - a necessary article about the Scottish Borders. Incidentally, I have the spelling as 'Peel towers'. Which is correct?

I will try to add a list of existing towers or remains.

Agendum 23:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

a 'vicar's pele' needs explaining for us foreigners. Sounds like a link to vicar might be enlightening. Wetman 00:20, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've done that vicar link. wrt the spelling, I am not sure about the change to "peel" - it looks odd to me. But I have no evidence either way at present so have left it. What I am sure about is that the capitalization was wrong (it's just a pele or peel tower but it's not named after Mr Peel or someone :) ) and that changing the spelling for the Embleton one specifically is wrong, and in this case I have changed it back to pele as "Embleton peel" is just not correct. Nevilley.

Also, why is this article in the plural now? I am sure there is some wiki rule about this but I can't remember it - I think, though, that things are usually in the singular. Thus if I want to read about submarines I look up "submarine", if I want to read about castles I look up "castle" and so on. As a pele tower is essentially a small castle, what's the difference? I'm sorry if I am being thick here or have overlooked something obvious - please feel free to educate me or point me to the relevant rule. Thanks, Nevilley

I think that might have me getting confused when I was moving it from Pele towers. I've put it back at Peel tower now, which I think is where it should be. Angela. 20:14, Jan 28, 2004 (UTC)

Angela: OK - I can live with that, although I thought the plural was more appropriate. I'm new and don't yet know all the Wikipedia style conventions.

Nevilley: you're probably right - see above. I'm also adding a list of towers later this evening, and am working on clarifying the connection with the Border reivers and the Borders generally.

Wetman: I don't know what a 'vicar's pele' is either. I didn't write the original article - I'm just editing it. I will put in an explanatory para re the (supposed) origin of the word.

Agendum 21:17, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

--

I just dug out the OED to see what they had to say.

pele, obs. form of peal, peel, pell

peel (other spellings for sense 4: pel, peyl, pele)
[Known a 1300 in latinized form pelum (later sometimes pela), in AF. pel, piel, in 14th c. ME. pel, pele, whence 15-16th c. Sc. peil. In sense 1 = OF. pel, piel (mod. F. pieu) stake:---L. Pel-us, pel-um stake. The development of sense 2 is parallel to that of the cognate pale; that of senses 3 and 4 is more obscure, but cf. the synonymous pile.
For a detailed historical examination of the word, see Peel: its Meaning and Derivation, by Geo. Neilson F.S.A Scot. 1893.]
1) a stake. Obs.
2) a palisade or fence formed of stakes; a stockade; a stockaded or palisaded (and moated) enclosure, either as the outer court of a castle, or as an independent fort of defensible position. Obs. [latest quote is in 1596]
3) a castle, esp. a small castle or tower; = pile. Obs.
4) The general name, in modern writers, for the small towers or fortified dwellings built in the 16th c. in the border countries of England and Scotland, for defence against hostile forays; consisting of a massive square edifice, the ground-floor of which was vaulted, and used as a shelter or refuge for cattle, while the upper part (the access to which was by a door on the level of the first floor, with external ladder or movable stair) was the abode of the owner and his family. (In this sense, probably orig. short for peel-house (see 6) i.e. house defended by a peel (in sense 2). But the name is nowo applied in many cases in which it has no historical support.) It is evidently akin to sense 3.
5) hence, the proper name of a place in the Isle of Man. (Cf. Castletown in the same island.)
6)attrib. as
peel-dike, the wall or rampart of a peel
peel-house, -tower = sense 4

And I couldn't find vicar's pele at all. I hope all that was useful, remember it's all copyright to the OED so can't be copied freely! Oh and I wasn't quite sure how to render some of the old latin characters, so it's not exactly right. Fabiform 22:01, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Thank you Fabiform - that's very useful. I found out something very similar about the derivation, which I will post later, if necessary.

I've discovered that (generally) Peel tower seems to be used in Scotland and Pele in northern England, although there will be some exceptions. The Scottish ones were built to warn of attack from the English, the English to help repel the Scots!

I also found the meaning and derivation of vicar's pele - I'll post that too.

Agendum 13:17, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Moss-trooper reference

I'm not sure that moss-troopers garrisoned the towers, as they were basically bandits, & the towers were a defensive measure – dick 22:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Pele/Peel Spelling

The use of the former spelling here is not confined to England so I am removing it unless anybody has any objections both Nigel Tranter and RCAHMS use the spelling in their literature to describe structures in Scotland. Brendandh 21:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)