Talk:Peking opera/Archive 1

Name

Just a thought: Why is this called Beijing Opera? The traditional English name is "Peking Opera", not "Beijing Opera", and the Chinese name is "Jingju". "Beijing Opera" is just a mindless, mechanical replacement of "Peking" by "Beijing" without actually taking you any closer to the original Chinese. It seems to me that, like Peking Duck, the old form should be retained....

Bathrobe 02:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

In Chinese "Jingju" is short for "bei jing xi ju". "Xiju" means drama in the traditional Chinese sense which combines acting, singing, music, and dance. "Beijing Opera" seems like a near enough translation of "Jingju". You could use "Jingju" and be 100% correct but not many people would be familiar with the term. LDHan 18:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit "Beijing Opera" is not ideal, although I think the problem is "Opera", not "Beijing". "Jingju" is not really used in the west, but if it is used more it could replace "Beijing Opera", after all "kabuki" and "noh" are refered to by those names in the west. LDHan 14:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I have created a redirect from Jingju to Beijing opera since I was actually searching for Jingju when I found this page. I agree that called Jingju "Beijing opera" is akin to calling Hula "Hawaiian Ballet" or calling Kabuki "Japanese Clowning." If I could go further, "Beijing opera" (or, rather, Peking opera) was a name chosen by Westerners who didn't really understand what they were seeing. I'm not sure calling something by an inaccurate name just because its always been called that is a wise academic choice, but I also recognize that we would be making it difficult, perhaps, for people to find the information on Beijing opera if we listed it under jingju... unless, of course, "Beijing opera" redirected to Jingju... R. Kevin Doyle 19:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I see that someone went ahead and replaced all instances of Beijing opera with Jingju within the article. Is that necessary? Midorihana_{(talk)(contribs)} 09:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Beijing opera vs. Jingju

An IP has recently changed all mentions of Beijing opera to "Jingju" in this article. Such major changes should not be undertaken without discussion here first. I personally support using the term "Beijing opera" everywhere except for a mention in the etymology section. This term is used by academics discussing this art form. If people feel that the use of "opera" might be confusing, we can explain it, but let's not remove every single mention of the standard English name.--Danaman5 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I am recording this article right now for featured status and I DO NOT SUPPORT changing everything to Jingju. First of all the etymology of the name is not standard to describing exactly what this is, it is only commonly called this as a sort of colloquialism of Mandarin speakers. (The formal name is 大戲 Big Play, essential, "Chinese opera") Similarly the pronunciation WIDELY varies amongst the dialects. In Cantonese it is "Ging Kek" as well as other dialects indicating that perhaps once there was another way of saying Beijing opera. Lastly the direct translation of Jingju is "City Opera" which English speakers would be confused (Chinese commonly shortens its words to one character when combining with another word. ie: Improvisation to Improv Theatre). And historically, Jingju is a recent neologism and the actual term for this type of opera has evolved for a long time. AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd Jingju requires English speakers to know romanized Chinese pinyin which is messed up, the pronunciation looks more like "Jiing-Jur" Or I guess if you're european qiing-qø (ö). 不要用中文词京剧在拼音的，跟英文没有意思呢～啊。 .:DavuMaya:. 00:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion re "Beijing opera" or "Jingju", but your points are not valid arguments against "Jingju". As far I know, "Jingju" is its actual name, not "a sort of colloquialism". Yes the various types of spoken Chinese do have different pronunciations, but virtually all its performers as well as its audience know it as "Jingju, 京剧". How can "大戲" be its name if it means "Chinese theatre"? "Jingju" is its current name , whatever it may have been called in the past belongs to its history, Beijing was named "Beiping" at one point, does that mean "Beijing" is not the name of the city now? Actually the translation of "Jingju" is "Beijing theatre, (theatre meaning the traditional Chinese artform which features singing, music, dance, acting, and acrobatics)". Yes it's long winded, that is because "opera" is a specific artform originating from European classical music in the last few hundred years. "Jingju" is no more a Chinese "opera" than the erhu is a Chinese "violin", because both "opera" and "violin" are not generic terms for musical drama and bowed string instruments repectively. And "Jingju" in fact is fairly straightforward for English speakers to read, in contrast to e.g. "Qing" or "Xi'an". The only reason as far as I can see for using "Beijing opera" is because that is the name commonly used in English. LDHan 13:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hm, this argument may end up in semantics then. I can see how opera is a Europeanism onto what Jingju is, though its a logical use, the style and format of Jingju is most closest to opera, not theatre -- all verses are sung. WP has varied on it's decisions whether to use a more official term versus a more commonly accepted term (this is English Wikipedia). WP generally states it should use what is most common to people (and thus agrees with consensus). However, decisions over foreign languages ALSO vary. For example an article I'm working on, Soren Kierkegaard redirects to Søren Kierkegaard, yet how many English users have Skandinavian script to type ø? And ø I don't think even existed in Danish in Soren's time. Obviously the participation of Danes IN Denmark has shaped this aspect. Yet the Norwegians who have demanded we all turn Olaf into Olav has allowed the Englishized Olaf I of Norway instead of Olav Tryggvason in the Norwegian WP. (others include: Palace of Versailles vs Château de Versailles, Louis VI of France vs roi de Saint-Denis, Dynasty vs Cháo, etc) We would need a lot more overseas Chinese who have a command of English to tell us why Jingju should be chosen (as you have LDHan). I'll just leave with stating my support for no change in the article. .:DavuMaya:. 01:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming conventions say that we should use the common English name (see WP:NAME#Use_common_names_of_persons_and_things and WP:UE). That's Beijing Opera, like it or not... The Drama Llama 21:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Redlink

I took away redlinx cos they look bad in FA. I think better now Elbowdrop 00:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words in FA?

How did "It is regarded that..." creep into the first sentence of a major section? Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 05:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC) "Some scholars believe that..." good grief! Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 05:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It has been five months since it was FAed... Pojanji 07:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandals

somebody has seriously messed with this page. check out the etymology section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.88.2 (talk) 18:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Beijing Opera Vs. Peking Opera

I was just curious as to why the article is named “Beijing Opera?” I know the city’s name is now officially, and popularly in English, romanized as “Beijing” rather than “Peking.” However, I’ve never heard the opera referred to as anything other than “Peking Opera.”

In Encyclopædia Britannica, the main article (Jingxi) also refers to it as Peking Opera but doesn’t mention Beijing Opera. Google lists about 26% more sites using the Peking variant. Thebrid 19:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the sources I used to write this article do use "Beijing opera" (see for example Wichmann's book under references). Sources before pinyin became widespread use Peking opera, and some sources after continue to do so. I guess you could make a case for either. I just don't think it would really be an improvement to the article to go through and change every mention of it.--Danaman5 04:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Peking opera is simply an early romanization of Beijing, I don't know why this topic continues to be brought up as if there is an inherent difference between the two spellings. Like whats different between Savana and Savannah? Baltimore is the Anglicization of Baile an Tí Mhoir. Peking and Beijing are the same things they just look different but that doesn't imbue any special meaning to one over the other. .:DavuMaya:. 17:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Page move fixed

I have restored this talk page to the correct location (Talk:Beijing opera). In the future, please archive by using cut and paste to an archive, such as Talk:Beijing opera/Archive 1. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 04:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Singing/voice info? Incomplete article - how did it ever get Featured?

I came looking for information about the vocal aspect - techniques, aesthetic values, history, relationship with accompaniment, etc. There's nothing here. Excuse me, but how did this element get overlooked, and how did the article get judged Feature-quality? Might as well write about "the planet Earth" without talking about the oceans and call it done. --76.247.46.8 (talk) 15:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I was the primary author of this article, and I didn't find much specifically dedicated to the vocal aspects of Beijing opera. There are some bits and pieces interspersed in the roles section. I will see what I can find, and if you know of any good sources, please let me know.--Danaman5 (talk) 22:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I have made some improvements, and I might add more later. It is all from one source, but that is the only one I could find that really goes in depth into the subjects you asked about. I hope this is helpful to you; please let me know what you think.--Danaman5 (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Revolutionary opera

The most common way I have heard Beijing opera of the CR described is 'revolutionary opera'. I thus changed the section on post-Liberation opera to that. If this is mistake, please advise me. In any case, revolutionary model operas are a notable development/appropriation of the Beijing opera form. I will add some information on that presently. Homunculus (duihua) 13:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)