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Talk:Penparcau

Latest comment: 9 months ago by 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 in topic Welsh IPA

I've just done a pretty major rewrite of the whole article, with the exception of the excellent history section which I've left pretty much untouched. The rest has been edited, wikified, and trimmed down (for example I've removed the 'places of interest' section, which had nothing to do with Penparcau, more Aberystwyth and area). I've also tried to make the tone of the article more like an encyclopedia and less like a travel guide. If anyone thinks I've pruned too much please do leave a note.

Cheers, PubLife 21:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

What is the point of trying to write about an area when people keep leaving negative comments? Anyway I'll let you carry on and leave you to write about Faraday;) If this happens again I'll get your IPs blocked - moderator, diolch yn fawr.

Looks like some kid, looking at the comments a bit frightened to go out.

DrC: Council removed as social housing is now the term used. What do people think of the use of the term deprived, as it has negative connotations. I noticed it was rough, but obviously this can't be used as it sounds too colloquial and is relative to the area.

Language

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Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I requested a citation a week ago, for the statement that Penparcau has the highest percentage of Welsh-speakers in the Aber area; the reference given ~ the UK gov't's census info ~ clearly shows that it does not, so i have removed the statement. Cheers, Lindsay 13:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

This was edited to most Welsh language speakers, highest percentage would be an odd statistic to use.

Just came across this, out of interest what is the population size in relation to percentage? Often percentages are mis-representative when used in this way. Does Bronglais have a transient student population? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.179.66 (talk) 19:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Welsh IPA

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Latest comment: 9 months ago9 comments6 people in discussion

I humbly, and in good faith, believe that a single Welsh IPA is sufficient, with that being the standard Welsh pronunciation (as opposed to that of one of the dialects). This cannot be ‘sourced’ as you are very unlilely to find a work that has transcribed the IPA for a comparatively unknown place in Wales. Therefore, if other editors insist on a source, we will be at an impasse.

What must be considered, then, is that when the Welsh pronunciations are self-evident due to phonemic orthography, the sourceable pronunciation will inevitably be from such works as travel books which give a very rough and Anglicized pronunciation. That would give a grave misimpression of the actual pronunciation ‘on the ground’.

I have made my edits in good faith, and don’t want to give the impression that I have not extended the same to other editors. I appreciate their efforts, and will try to better gain consensus. I do not intend for my edits to be adversarial. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008 (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@SovalValtos, @Sirfurboy. I only restored the tag here because it kept being reverted, best discuss here. DankJae 01:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for bringing this to talk where we can establish a consensus. In general I am in agreement with the IP that there is not much to be gained from finding a source for IPA rendering of a pronunciation. A relevant essay (essay, not policy) is WP:BLUESKY. IPA is phonemic orthography of a Welsh spelling system that is itself phonetic. We don't reference spellings. Wikipedia's verifiability policies derive from academic practice, but this is not something that would need an in text citation in an academic essay.
That, however, is my general view. There are specific cases that are greyer, and two of them can be found adjacent to each other. Aberystwyth and Penparcau both have more than one way they can be pronounced. Aberystwyth now lists both, with citations for the English. I find two citations in the first sentence of the lead to be unfortunate with regard to MOS:LEADCITE, but I also think removal of what is actually the more common pronunciation would be incorrect, so I have left it.
What then of Penparcau? There is a correct and recognisable Wels pronunciation which is the one the IP has placed, but the residents of Penparcau are much more likely to pronounce that last vowel to rhyme with "key". There is also a mid Wales dialect - and this is in mid Wales - that would pronounce this a third way (seen in the Well known shop, Siop y Pethe, which is the shop of things, but "pethau" is rendered in phonetic Welsh spelling as "pethe" because that is how the sound is rendered in mid Wales dialect). So there are, in fact, three ways this is pronounced, one of which is formally correct.
None of this is leadworthy. The purpose of the lead is to introduce the subject, and that introduction is most useful when a single pronunciation is given to a reader. As soon as we give two pronunciations, we have simply confused the reader and not aided them. If it is impossible to have just one agreed pronunciation, there should be none. But in the case of Penparcau, I would suggest that the formal Welsh pronunciation that we have is probably the best to keep if we keep any. However, we have no space limits in an article. My suggestion is that we actually have a section in the article that discusses the pronunciation. I don't know whether the above explanation has bored you all, but hopefully someone would find the weird range of pronunciations of this name to be of interest. That is where we might find citations. We might find papers discussing the matter and how it came about. Once we have a section on the matter, we can then have just one pronunciation up front - the formal one as described in the section - without citations because it would be a summary of the main, per MOS:LEAD. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
That is a very sensible take. I agree that one would encounter three pronunciations, as you have outlined: the standard Welsh pronunciation; the local Welsh pronunciation (dialectal); and the Anglicised pronunciation used typically by those in the area who do not speak Welsh. And as you say, rather than overloading the opening sentence, it would make sense to include the standard pronunciation; for the local Welsh dialectal pronunciation, it would be sufficient to merely consult the page (if there is one) for that dialect, as the local Welsh rendering of Penparcau is entirely consistent with that, which is that the 'au' /ai̯/ is pronounced 'e' /ɛ/ (as you have helpfully outlined above).
That leaves the 'English' pronunciation, which is a bit more tricky as once we reach that we are on a continuum of English pronunciations, with the 'key' pronunciation being generally more common, but not the only one. This set of pronunciations varies according to the speaker's familiarity with the area, and with Welsh.
Therefore, we can say that the standard Welsh pronunciation is established and stable, as is the local dialect Welsh pronunciation; it is the English pronunciation which is variable. If this information were to be included, it would be most usefully done in a separate section (again, as outlined sensibly by yourself). Whether there would be enough sourceable material is another question (according to the standards asked of so far).
More generally, what I do find occasionally frustrating is that the majority (if not the vast majority in some cases) of IPA transcriptions for placenames from other languages (English, Italian, Spanish, and so forth...) are also unsourced, but are not challenged. In in the interest of fairness and consistency, I feel that some editors might want to chase after those as well (or at least the English placename transcriptions in Wales). It is unusual that Welsh is singled out in this way: the Welsh language is often accused of being 'unpronounceable', and are often got wrong by visitors and TV announcers, but yet again, when Welsh IPA transcriptions are provided, they are impeded by different standards. And as there simply are not many places where standard IPA transcriptions of Welsh placenames exist, the expected standard would mean that there are very few 'acceptable' Welsh transcriptions. It is a strange situation. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:C872:B9C5:926A:697B (talk) 09:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
In light of the discussion here (specifically Sirfuboy's very sensible contribution), what do you suggest? Specifically, what purpose does the Citation Needed serve here, and is it useful? 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:C872:B9C5:926A:697B (talk) 09:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agreed it is better not to have cited material in the lead rather than an appropriate section. See [1] Anything in the lead should be mentioned elsewhere in the article. (GA criteria). Where two good faith editors have differed over their editor-generated construction of an IPA (such as in this article) then a WP:RS with a reputation for fact checking should be used to support one or both conflicting variations. If no such source(s) exists then there is no hurry to include the material, it can await the publication of such a source.SovalValtos (talk) 12:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
MOS:LEADCITE states

Although the presence of citations in the lead is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article, there is no exception to citation requirements specific to leads. Any material challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation or it may be removed.

So citations in the lead are not prohibited (but understand any dislike of having them; plus multiple ones can be citebundled), and per discussions and reverts it is clearly being challenged, so in this case a citation is needed. On other places where there is a clear single pronunciation (no other alternatives/anglicisations), then I assume it has not been challenged as much. Still concerned with the "Welsh pronunciations for Welsh places" arguments, if there is a common or local alternative then it should be mentioned too, regardless if it is "not correct" or writing the great wrong of "anglicisations", and if it is cluttering the lead, per MOS:PRONPLACEMENT can be put into a footnote.
But concede if no citations can be found for the alternate pronunciations, and there is clear agreement on the "theoretically correct" (non-dialect) pronunciation, then that could be the only one included, although best with a source if possible, especially if there were pre-existing IPAs on the article or subject to a disagreement. Although if no pronunciation can be agreed, then there should be none. DankJae 14:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
There may actually be something quite interesting going on. The entry for Penparcau on page 370 of the Dictionary of the Places Names of Wales[2] gives the derivation as "top of the fields" with pen + parc(i)au. That is, parciau is a valid (alternative) plural of parc. This would explain the local pronunciation I mentioned by elision of the last sound and retention of the i. The dictionary notes "Pen y Parkiau" in 1756 but also notes other key variations: "Penparke" (1813), "Penparkey" (1816) "Pen Parciau" (1834). Unfortunately I don't have that book, and was looking at the google books preview, so if there is more, I don't know. However, I expect just that information might make a good start to a toponym/pronunciation section. (Avoiding what I said about elision at this stage, as that would be my OR). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
That is very interesting, and would certainly warrant a place in the article. It would be unusual, however, for the semi-vowel 'i' in 'parciau' (/parcjai̯/) to have been retained as an independent vowel by English speakers, but then again, the tendency of English speakers to render Ceredigion as a five syllable word (kerr-e-dig-ee-un) would suggest that maybe semi-vowels can be fully realised by them in these circumstances. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 (talk) 17:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
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