Talk:Percy Toplis

Nottingham Evening Post Photo

Have contacted Mike Sassi, the current editor of the Nottingham Evening Post about using the photograph of Toplis in his Officer uniform at the opening of a pub on Sanforth Street where Toplis was born. The editor was sceptical about whether the Nottingham Evening Post ever possessed the original photograph. As a fresh version of this photo was uploaded by user Jack1956 in December 1910, would Jack1956 be able provide a source for his fresh scan as it looks like it was taken from the original source image? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PixSrgy (talk • contribs) 13:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Rape at Mansfield

The assault on farmer's daughter Nelly North that was attributed to Percy Toplis occurred at Sutton-on-Sea in Lincolnshire and not Mansfield (see: Boston Guardian 09 March 1912, page. 5). The report also states that the perpetrator was called James Topliss. A look at the 1911 Census shows that a family (including two persons by the name James Topliss, one a labourer) was living at Ramcrift Withern Alford, Withern with Stain, Lincolnshire, within a mile or so of where the attack on Nelly took place. Percy's own family are not known to have had relations in Lincolnshire yet the report clearly states that the offender was caught on his way to see his Uncle in Skegness. Although Percy's name does feature in the records Quarter Sessions (item 297, Series HO140, A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace For The Year 1912) it may well be that his case was confused by a record of Percy's first offence for fraud in 'Sutton' in Nottinghamshire (Sutton in Ashfield).

I have since found that another man - army deserter William Hobden (alias Thomas James Wilson) was charged under the very same aliases attributed to Toplis in February and November 1918 (Percy Toplis, Francis Edmundson, William Dennison, Patley Bridge etc). In this instance the Police clearly thought they had the same man twice. Both men were charged and sentenced under the same aliases (see: Thomas Hobden, Police Gazette February 18th 1918, 8: John Williams/Percy Toplis Police Gazette Friday October 18th 1918, and Francis Edmundson/Percy Toplis, Police Gazette 15 November 1918, p.3). The Police arrested two men under the same aliases: one at Nottingham and one in Clerkenwell within months of each other. As Toplis was already in custody in Nottingham in October 1918 he could not have been arrested in Clerkenwell in November 1918. This was Thomas Hobden. This shows the level of confusion that existed in sharing and recording criminal data prior to central databases. I can proivide screengrabs of the relevant sources but the assault charge against Percy is not without its problems.

The report in the Boston Guardian of 09 March 1912 reads "On Thursday afternoon in the last week at the Alford Police Station, a man named James Topliss was charged with assaulting a girl, named Nelly North. Nelly North of is the daughter of Joseph North,a farmer of Sutton, and is apprenticed as milliner to Miss Johnson, draper of High Street Sutton, stated that she was 15 years of age. She left business about ten minutes to seven on the evening of Wednesday, February 21st and started home. She saw prisoner James Topliss, near Fern Villa ..."

The records of the same crime in the A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace For The Year 1912 (Series HO14, item 297) reads "Percy Toplis ... unlawfully assaulting one Nelllie North with intent feloniously to ravage and carnally know her at the parish of Sutton on Sea on 21st February 1912."

The Nottingham Evening Post 05 March 1908 (p.5) reported that the 11 year old Percy was charged with "obtaining two suits of clothes, value 24s by false pretences, from clothier Albert levitt of Low Street, Sutton".

This was however, Sutton in Ashfield not Sutton on Sea in Lincolnshire, which is some 80 miles east. It's not impossible for the records of the two boys to have become confused. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PixSrgy (talk • contribs) 14:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

39 field ambulances - on the troop-ship Orantes, en-route for India

What is the source for the information that Toplis served with B section of the 39th Field Ambulances? The Penrith & Eden Valley Museum refer to it in their Toplis display, but when I contacted the Museum requesting a source, they said they were informed by the writers of The Monocled Mutineer. It does not feature in the book and despite considerable effort, I have not been able to find a reference to it elsewhere. The Service Records of Percy Toplis have not been seen since 1920. According to BBC and Channel 4 Military Historian, Paul Reed, they either "haven't survived or are still being held by the MOD". The only official evidence that Toplis served in the Royal Army Medical Corps is his Medal Roll. The Medal Roll reveals the regiment he served with, but not the precise unit, and peculiarly it also includes details of his death in Penrith. Death notices (often added decades after service) are traditionally found in army service records, not scribbled on medal rolls. These hastily scribbled notes on his medal roll are fairly exceptional to say the least. It might also indicate that his service records had been withdrawn prior to July 1920 - when the notes to his medal roll were added (14/07/1920).

One of only references to his wartime service career in the press can be found in the Police Gazette Friday October 18th 1918 when Toplis was charged in Nottinghamshire for "obtaining a gold-bracelet by worthless cheque." The report reads, "a deserter from the R.A.M.C Salonica since 15th June 1918."

As the 39th Field Ambulances served in Salonika and Iraq (Mesopotamia) but never India, it is unlikely that Toplis would be heading to India on board the RMS Orontes on September 11th 1917. The R.A.M.C's 37th Stationary Hospital departed for South Africa from Devonport on the RMS Orontes on that date (see the service records of Herbert Deah, born 1884, service no: 22604) but the 39th Field Ambulances were still in Mesopotamia and Persia. As part of the 13th (Western) Division, India would have been well outside their remit. According to early press reports Toplis enlisted in August 1914 as part of Kitchener's First New Army. During December and early January 1914 the troops of the 39th Field Ambulances were billeted in and around Torquay before being delpoyed to Gallipoli at the beginning of July 1915 (see: Tolley, James, William Oral History, Imperial War Museum) It was during this campaign that Toplis picked up his medal for service in the Balkans (see: Percy Toplis, Medal Card, WO 372/20/59027).

It's possible that Toplis had switched units between enlisting in 1914 and September 1917 but based on the evidence provided by the Police Gazette in October 1918, it's unlikely to have taken him as far as India. According to the Gazette, who printed monthly notices on deserters, Toplis was in Salonika in June 1918 - not India. And as Toplis had deserted once, it's entirely possible he'd deserted before.

Until the sources for the information have been revealed, the claim that Toplis was en-route to India at the time of the Mutiny must be treated with caution.

References

Digressive passage (in Aftermath section)

The paragraph about a suicide of one of Toplis' accomplices gets rambling - so to speak. I have therefore deleted the digressive sentences but move them here in case the information could be used for another Wikipedia article to which it would be more relevant (the sole reference to Toplis within it is coincidental rather than material):

"The death of the couple in the cave bore a remarkable similarity to a tragedy at the very same cave in 1758 when an eloping couple were murdered by miners as they passed through Castleton.(1) According to one version of the tale one of the miners, Nicholas Cock later died from a fall in Blackwell, home of the Toplis family. The story was recounted by Thomas Hanby in the Arminian Magazine of 1785.(2) Just six months prior to the death of Fallows, Winnats Pass had been the location of a "right to ramble" demonstration led by Labour MP, Rhys Davies politician.(3) The event was the forerunner of the Mass Trespass of Kinder Scout organized by Benny Rothman in 1932."

References:

(1)Henderson, Mark (2010), Murders in the Winnats Pass: Evolution of a Peak District Legend, Amberley Publishing, Stroud, England

(2)Hanby, Thomas, The Arminian Magazine for the Year 1785: Vol VIII, J.Paramore at the Foundry, Moorfields

(3)"A Demonstration In The Mountains", The Sphere, London, 19 June 1926

Cloptonson (talk) 20:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Tend to it agree. It was pretty rambling in the greater sceheme of things. Suicide? That's open to debate for reasons that could be explored in another article devoted to the famous 'cave of death' in Winnats Pass. Or even a page devoted to Harry Fallows himself. As the Toplis family were Methodists, and the Toplis family also lived in Blackwell, it seemed worthy of mention at the time (Toplis was also found sitting outside a Methodist Chapel in Low Hesket by Constable Fulton on the day Toplis was ambushed by Police). The Arminian Magazine, which first published the account of the cave murder, was a Methodist/Wesleyan publication. It was a folk tale that took root among local Methodists. But accept the point made: it's too digressive. PixSrgy (talk) 10:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Ambiguity (Aftermath section)

It seems not only was it John de Courcy Parry's police career that was resurrected in 1927, but also his life if we take at face value this, clearly mistaken, passage: Parry had submitted his resignation [as chief constable of Westmorland] as early as April 1920, some two months before his death in Plumpton implying he had died in 1920!Cloptonson (talk) 20:37, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Tidied it up. It was poorly phrased. Fair point. PixSrgy (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

2017 records release

The section 'Alleged mutineer' refers to what was then a pending release of records that might detail Toplis' part in the Etaples Mutiny in 2017. Have they in fact been released into the public domain now we are two years on from the latter year? I have for meantime updated the reference to reflect the passage of time.Cloptonson (talk) 20:51, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

In General Thomson's war diary (Lines of communication. Etaples Base: Commandant, The National Archives, Kew, WO 95/4027/5) Thomson mentions that a Board of Enquiry was due to compile a report into the camp disturbances. Many people believed that the so-called 'Haig Report' would be made available in 2017. I think it was only ever conjecture that the report had been filed under the 100-year rule. In April 2017, Chris Evans Labour/Co-operative MP for Islwyn asked Mark Lancaster, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Mark Lancaster, if documents relevant to the Haig Board of Inquiry were retained by the Government. Lancaster replied that the Ministry of Defence did not retain these records. PixSrgy (talk) 10:39, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Toplis posing as an Officer Photo

User Jack1956 has kindly informed me that it was Skjoldbro who uploaded the full, fresh scan of Toplis posing as an officer. Could we discuss the origin of this picture as the Nottingham Evening Post claims never to have had the original in their possession (they printed a much-cropped version of the picture with the chair 'removed' from the background on April 29th 1920 - as did the Daily Mail the same day). Never seen the full version of this picture in any previous publication, so knowing the source might help clear-up the myth. It's a beatuifully crisp version, that's for sure, and would like to get our hands on a hi-res version for a display we are creating. Happy to provide email PixSrgy (talk) 09:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

'First inquest' to declare someone a murderer in 1920?

The statement:

The jury returned a verdict of "wilful murder" by Percy Toplis, foreshadowing the possibility of his execution when caught; it was the first British inquest in modern times to declare a man guilty of murder in his absence.

I think there needs to be a clarification of in what context Toplis was absent. I have in meantime added a citation tag. The verdict by coroners of 'wilful murder' against named individuals goes back a longer way surely and it would be unusual for the suspect to be present at the inquest of his victim and Toplis could not have been the first alleged murderer to have gone on the run leaving their victims to the coroner. A most unusual verdict of this kind was made during the 1840s potato famine on a woman who died of starvation in Ireland when the coroner, apparently venting anger at the British government, recordedly delivered a wilful murder verdict against the then PM Lord John Russell (who was at work in England at time and did not visit Ireland). During WWI itself and no more than five years earlier a West Midlands coroner held an inquest on several victims of a Zeppelin raid declaring wilful murder verdict against the Emperor of Germany and the Crown Prince!Cloptonson (talk) 11:04, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Medal Card record

I note that one of few records of his service publicly available is his Medal Card which would have indicated what medals he was entitled to from his service in WWI. It would be interesting to see if his medal entitlement was consistent with claims about where he served, if this could be investigated and details released.Cloptonson (talk) 14:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)