Talk:Perea

Merger proposal

The articles Perea (region) and Transjordan (Bible) refer to exactly the same biblical regions.

In the LXX, in both the Old and New Testaments the term used is πέραν τοῦ ’Ιορδάνου / péran toú Iordánou (see [1] and e.g. [2])

"Perea" is never used in the Bible, except possibly once in Luke as a variant region.

And "Transjordan" is also never used. In Hebrew it is עבר הירדן (Ever HaYarden).

Oncenawhile (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: The maps show clearly that they are not the same region - "Transjordan" is a bigger area, encompassing what would become known as the Decapolis. Even if they were the same, the meaning and significance are different between OT to NT, so it is best to have them as different articles. StAnselm (talk) 00:59, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

The source of the borders of both maps are of spurious authenticity. Those borders are not described in the bible or in contemporary sources. Borders of all the regions, including Samaria and Judea, changed materially over time. We do not have articles for Judea (Old Testament) and Judea (New Testament), and we do not have articles for Samaria (Old Testament) and Samaria (New Testament).

What do you think about the point on the names? "Beyond the Jordan" was the name used consistently in the OT and NT, and neither Perea or Transjordan appear to have provenance.

Oncenawhile (talk) 12:34, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. You are right the nams are semantically equivalent, but that doesn't mean the can be used interchangeably. From what I remember Perea was used in secular, administrative contexts from the Hashmoneans to one of the Roman reorganizations. It is recurring in Josephus, check it out here (and maybe on other ancient geo links on my userpage?). The other terms are more flexible as they have been used in different periods, and not necessarily in a formal way. They shouldn't be conflated. trespassers william (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Danny lost, thanks for that link - does that mean the name Perea was ONLY used in Josephus? I haven't been able to find it anywhere else.

FYI this source refers to Perea as "the Greek term for Transjordan". Oncenawhile (talk) 22:44, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Looks like it's only in Josephus In Josephus and once in Plinius: [3] (but also in a lot of modern writers). trespassers william (talk) 01:18, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

And Eusebius [4]. trespassers william (talk) 11:58, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

And one papyrus of the Babatha cache. trespassers william (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note A google books search for the terms perea and transjordan brings up a multitude of scholarly works which state that the two terms are interchangeable. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:48, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I guess it's a simplification that works for NT-centric lexicographers (who wrote on paper). One of the first gbooks things show more complexity: [5]. It might mean even the term Perea can be disambiguated into the general geographic meaning (i.e. Transjordan) the the political one. trespassers william (talk) 00:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note Incorporation into Ptolemaic Kingdom & partial Nabataean Kingdom, later fully Arabia Petraea is a factor. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:20, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: The historical intersection of Peraea Propria with the Decapolis, Hasmonean dynasty and Herodian kingdom supports a distinct Perea article. Even if the term is later conflated with Transjordan. I suspect that the Decapolis and environs were originally called Περαία, "the country beyond" the Jordan River which is comparable to Latin trans, "across, over, beyond". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.159.171 (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Peran

New Testament — Greek-English Lexicon

• 202: Πέρᾱν

adv. across, beyond, over, on the other side, Mat. 4.15, 25; 19.1. Jno. 6.1, 17; ὁ, ἡ, τὸ, πέραν, farther, on the farther side, and τὸ πέραν, the farther side, the other side, Mat. 8.18, 28; 14.22, et al.

Περαία —the country beyond

Matthew 4.15 & 4.25 Greek English πέραν beyond τοῦ the Ἰορδάνου Jordan     19.1 τὰ the ὅρια region τῆς - Ἰουδαίας of Judea πέραν beyond τοῦ the Ἰορδάνου Jordan

Mark 3.8 Greek English πέραν beyond τοῦ the Ἰορδάνου Jordan     10.1 τὰ the ὅρια region τῆς - Ἰουδαίας καὶ of Judea and πέραν beyond τοῦ the Ἰορδάνου Jordan

1. Perea —where Jesus preached (Mark 10:1 & Matt 19.1 parallel passages)
2. Transjordan —where John the Baptist preached and baptized (John 1:28; 3:26)
3. Transjordan —where many people lived and whom came from, to hear Jesus (Mark 3:8)

Jesus is said to have come into the borders of Judaea (in the narrower sense) through Peraea; but according to the reading of L T Tr WH, viz. καί πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου and (in particular that part of Judaea which lay) beyond the Jordan, Mark agrees with Matthew; (others regard πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου here as parallel with τῆς Ἰουδαίας and like it dependent upon ὅρια). Ἰουδαΐζω; (from Ἰουδαῖος, cf. Ἑλληνιστής (Winers Grammar, 92 (87))). Biblehub - 2449.Ioudaia

74.136.159.171 (talk) 07:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC) and 74.136.159.171 (talk) 16:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this. I don't understand your points 1, 2, and 3 above - what does it refer to? "Transjordan" is never used in the Bible. I also don't think "Perea" is used, only "péran toú Iordánou". Oncenawhile (talk) 21:21, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Vulgate Latin Bible of St Jerome

Matthew 4.25 trans Iordanen — Transjordan

Matthew 19.1 Iudaeae trans Iordanen — Judean-Transjordan

1. Transjordan from the Latin.
2. Peran/Perea from the Greek —as an abbreviation of "πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου" or more likely the longer "τὰ ὅρια τῆς Ἰουδαίας πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου".

Perea, if coined as an abbreviation is likely modern ???

74.136.159.171 (talk) 03:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, this is very clear. This suggests that they are the same term, just translations of each other, and therefore should have the same article. Agreed? Oncenawhile (talk) 07:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree, If the case is made that greek Perea is a CE (common era coined) short form substitute for the longer greek Judean-Transjordan and the term 'Peraea Propria' can be clarified as the district between the rivers Hieromax on the north, and Arnon on the south (or something similar to note-2). 74.136.159.171 (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why. It seems both ancient and modern writers overwhelmingly reserve the term Perea as short "the jewish transjordan" or "the judean transjordan" , which can only mean the greco-roman time district in relatively well defined borders; not the catch-all, wide ranging, a-historical term "transjordan". We are not in the business of confusing people between terms that evolved similarly. It'd be like merging Louisiana into Louisiana (New France). Btw where did "peraea propria" come from? trespassers william (talk) 01:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

"peraea propria" or "proper perea" is a modern term used to specify —the greco-roman time period district with relatively well defined borders— rather then just using the term perea, which is correct, but which has become conflated with Transjordan and thus may result in confusion.

1. Josephus described Perea as the region between the Jabbok and the Arnon rivers, east of the Jordan. note
2. Peræa was the general name of that part of Palæstina which lay east of the river Jordan; but more usually, in a restricted sense, it signified a part only of that region, namely the district between the rivers Hieromax on the north, and Arnon on the south. note

74.136.159.171 (talk) 03:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this. It looks like early modern scholars recognised the different ways of using the term - see for example: [6] and [7]. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, that is one idiotic comment by Whiston: Josephus describes how the cries from within Jerusalem and the environs all echoed each others, as even the dying people joined in. And Whiston takes it literally... Now the Jerusalem and Transjordanic mountains are within sight of each other, sometimes. And obviously jews lived on both sides, so it is tempting to describe them "echoing" each other, as Josephus does. But to try and search something that is a. beyond something and b. within actual hearing distance, to account for the echo... then come up with Mount of Olives, which is just the next hill, plus pretty much where the Romans put the siege circumvallation. And he's surprised nobody made the comment before. trespassers william (talk) 14:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

What is actually written on the Babatha and Pliny manuscripts ? "Περαία" or "πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου", it is possible that Josephus coined the term and Eusebius copied him. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 04:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

* Babatha: Greek here: περὶ πόλιν Λιουιάδος τῆς Π[εραίας … πρὸς Σαλ]ωμην καλουμένην

• Another papyrus, 152 AD?, Greek here: κώμης Μεασων τῆς Περέας παραδεχθῆναι
• Eusebius: Greek here, line 14, Latin avoids the term; another use here, line 28, same with the Latin,
  • Writes "in what is called today Peraea of Palestine across the Jordan", so not scraped from Josephus. More interestingly Oppenheimer concludes "Peraea had administrative function in his time...from this follows that at the beginning of the fourth century Peraea was still part of Provincia Palaestina"
    • Another editor:Iazēr.527 City of the Ammorites ten miles west at Philadelphia in the Perea of Palestine beyond the Jordan. It was made the boundary of the tribe of Gad (Latin omits this sentence), "reaching to Aroer which is opposite Rabba." Also Jeremia. It was separated to the Levites. Fifteen miles from Essebon and from it a great river flows forth to fall into the Jordan (bursts forth and is received by the Jordan).: [8]

See note 528 re Eusebius: "Usually Perea is used for Transjordan not for the specific province"

Oncenawhile (talk) 06:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Pliny appears to comprehend Peraea as a district of 'Greater Judea', along with {Galilee, Samaria, Idumea, 'Iudaea Propria'}. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

re note 527: I saw, that's why I wanted to share this. At any rate it hints there was a "specific province" by this name. In note 28: "The Peraia is always translated by Jerome as Transjordan. In Byzantine times Peraia was continuous with the region of Philadelphia (K. 104:14)."

To combine the notes re Eusebius of Wolf and Oppenheimer, maybe the district disintegrated later into the 4th century, between Eusebius and Jerome. trespassers william (talk) 19:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Looking at Carta's maps, it appears the incorporation of territories of Agrippa II, around 100 CE, as well as some Decapolis cities, may account for both Eusebius wider use and 19th century undecidedness, and mean not the area was undefined in the 4th century as Wolf make of it. trespassers william (talk) 13:28, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Then closer to the 6th century, Stephanus of Byzantium thought it was a "village in Syria" : greek, greek plus latin. (via LSJ at Perseus site) trespassers william (talk) 16:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Two modern encycs. preferring territorial use over topographic:
  • A. NEGEV: "After Herod's death Machaerus became part of the Peraea,"
  • William Smith: "It was situated in the mountains of Arabia (πρὸς τοῖς Ἀραβίοις ὄρεσιν (5.2), and on the confines of Herod's jurisdiction and that of Aretas king of Arabia, his father-in-law, but at this time the historian expressly states that it belonged to the latter (18.6.1.), being the southern extremity of Peraea, as Pella was the northern. (B. J. 3.3.3. 4.7.5.)"

trespassers william (talk) 19:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Perea —Principal Cities: Caesarea Philippi, Bethsaida, Gadara, Jabesh-Gilead. —Cantons: Iturea, Trachonitis, and Auranitis, in the north ; Gaulonitis and Batanea in the centre ; and Perea Proper in the south. In addition to these there were ten cities known as Decapolis ; but it is not easy to determine what these particular cities were. (Geography of Palestine 1865, note p.50) 74.136.159.171 (talk) 22:11, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Previously in lede: "Traditionally, its limits have been considered to be the eastern bank of the Jordan River between the rivers Arnon (Wadi Mujib) in the south and Hieromax (Yarmouk River) in the north." ref:"Per.-ea,...II. generally, the portion of Israel E. of Jordan; specially, the district bet. Arnon fl. and Hieromax fl."working el scan or wayback html. Prefers a limited interpretation but seems weak. I removed it.
• But this has only one kind of Perea, between those rivers, and no greater/proper duo: The Penny Cyclopedia. trespassers william (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
• A book with more space on the matter but incessantly jumps between all biblical periods: "Peraea is a designation sometimes given to the all country occupied by the Israelites beyond the jordan, but more properly applied to the territory laying south of mount Gilead, and almost environed by the rivers Jordan, Jabok and Arnon...", the other districts, Gaulanitis et al, are in the pages above. No inline cites.
• James Playfair (1813). A System of Geography: Ancient and Modern. P. Hill. p. 107-110 (cf. 100-107). . trespassers william (talk) 19:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Pliny translation

'Greater Judea' or 'Provincia Iudaea', incorporates Samaria and Idumea into an expanded territory. The district proximate to Syria is Galilee. The district proximate to 'Arabia Vero' and Egypt is Perea, a geographically rugged area separated from/by Iudaeis Iordane.
74.136.159.171 (talk) 02:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Pliny likely said, "Perea, is a geographically rugged district separated from the other Judean districts (Samaria, 'Iudaea Propria') by the Jordan river." 74.136.159.171 (talk) 05:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC) and copyedit 10:49, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Per Pliny, "Peraea ...is separated from the other parts of Judaea by the river Jordan Iudaeis Iordane" —'Jew's Jordan' possibly meaning our 'peraea propria' or possible transcription error of 'Iudaeae [trans/cis] Iordanen' ??? 74.136.159.171 (talk) 01:05, 2 August 2015 (UTC) and move 04:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Iudaea non-inclusion per the Judea (Roman province) article;

In 6 CE Judea became part of a larger Roman province, called Iudaea, which was formed by combining Judea proper (biblical Judah) with Samaria and Idumea (biblical Edom). Even though Iudaea is simply derived from the Latin for Judea, many historians use it to distinguish the Roman province from the previous territory and history. Iudaea province did not include Galilee, Gaulanitis (the Golan), nor Peraea or the Decapolis.

74.136.159.171 (talk) 02:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank for the article edits. The province wasn't built in one day. Per the indispensable Carta's Atlas: Herod Archelaus tetrarchy was converted c. 6 AD. Herod Antipas kept to his (Galilee and Perea). He was exiled 39 AD, and the territory was transferred to Agrippa I. A couple of years later he got Judaea, which stopped for a while to be managed as (sub-) province. When he died 44 AD, his merged territory was made province again, including Perea for the first time. (minus bits that went to Agrippa II). After the first revolt the province was elevated to a Procurator-controlled full province, and only after Agrippa II's death at the close of the century did his territories entered the Procurator's control.

The sentence in Judea (Roman province) freezes on the year 6 AD. What's interesting, the raison d'etre of our article, is that the borders of Hasmonean/Herodian times, and especially the Herodian internal organization seem to have remained in place into late Roman time.

trespassers william (talk) 13:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

So the Judea (Roman province) article should be updated. (do you have an appropriate Josephus, etc. citation?)

• Galilee and Perea, the domains of Agrippa I, were incorporated into the province upon the death of Herod Antipas in 44 AD. He had inherited them from his father and ruled over them 6 AD – 39 AD. Antipas was exiled in 39 AD and control of Galilee and Perea passed to Agrippa.

74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Per the article revision history question, "why quote twice? and why the image?". For maximum elaboration and for archival purposes, and while it may look clunky now, the future wikipedia (year 3001?) will present a more streamlined meta-references view and this info is also useful for student's reports as the original quote may be trimmed or replaced with a paraphrase.74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't have them sorted (at least 16 mentions!) though the Atlas does give clues as to where to look. Notice Josephus changes the borders based on historical context: There is Jabbok-Arnon and there is Pella-Machaerus, which means an additional segment on the north and maybe an area ceded on the south. What is the bulleted sentence?

So not 3001. This is the decline and fall, televised. trespassers william (talk) 18:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Per "Galilee and Perea, the domains of Agrippa...", this is a suggestion for updating the Judea (Roman province) article frozen on the year 6 AD. If the basic facts are correct, then just a citation is needed. It can be further developed once embedded in the article. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

", W" are Whiston sections. ",, n" are Mason notes, all from the PACE site:

Herod Archelaus tetrarchy was converted c. 6 AD. Herod Antipas kept to his (Galilee and Perea). He was exiled 39 AD, and the territory was transferred to Agrippa I. A couple of years later he got Judaea, which stopped for a while to be managed as (sub-) province. When he died 44 AD, his merged territory was made province again, including Perea for the first time. (minus bits that went to Agrippa II in 54 CE ). After the first revolt the province was elevated to a Procurator-controlled full province, and only after Agrippa II's death at the close of the century did his territories entered the Procurator's control.

trespassers william (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Ptolemies, Seleucids, etc. [moved]

• stuff to check, earlier :
  • papyri of Zeno of Caunus,
  • Books of Maccabees
    • No mention at I Macc. 5, which is about Transjordan, only city names and stuff like Γαδαὰδ ἐπὶ τὸν ᾿Ισραὴλ  ; πόλεις τῆς Γαλααδίτιδος. Which can make one think the term came to wider use only later, when the region became part of the Hasmonean state. trespassers william (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Ptolemaic hyparchy: W. D. Davies; Louis Finkelstein (22 March 1990). The Cambridge History of Judaism: Volume 2, The Hellenistic Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 213. ISBN 978-0-521-21929-7..
    • I find no independent evidence of it, and on the other hand the internet pours of Ptolemaic Ammanitis... trespassers william (talk) 00:12, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Maybe from this bit of Josephus: "And as to the poll-money, which ought to be given me for every head of the inhabitants of Judea, and of the three toparchies that adjoin to Judea, Samaria, and Galilee, and Perea, that I relinquish to you for this time, and for all time to come." Ant XIII.2.3 trespassers william (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Renald (index)

trespassers william (talk) 01:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 24 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. A close one this. The argument about surnames is quite persuasive. Luis Amaranto Perea gets similar pageviews to the region, for example. But Cuchullain's stats showing how few viewers go through the (surname) page, indicates that few are really following that route, and most Perea people probably do want the region.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:50, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

---

Perea (region) → Perea – Perea should link to this article rather than disambiguation page as this article is the most notable. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:26, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose: Fails WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which does not mean "having the longest history" or "having the most historical significance in the long term". It's pretty clear, given the number of notable people with this surname, and how many of them are football players and the like, that the majority of readers are going to be thinking of the surname. However, that wouldn't necessarily make that surname the primary topic either. Often there isn't one, and we use disambiguation for a reason.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in a WP:TWODABS situation. Of the two articles called just "Perea", this one receives 95.3% of the page views.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:29, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ptolemy's eastern side of the Jordan

Ptolemy Geographia Book 5 Ch.15:6 - Fouth map of Asia (1482 version)

from the Jordan river: Cosmus, Livias, Callirrhoe, Gazorus, Epicaerus

from the east of the river Jordan: Cosmos. Livias. Callirrhoe. Gazorus. Epicaerus.

east of the Jordan: Cosmius, Libias, Callirhoe, Gazaros, Epicaeros

Ptolemy "describes the Peraea by a periphrasis as the eastern side of Jordan which may imply that the name [Peraea] was no longer in vogue." (Smith, William (1873). A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography. J. Murray. p. 533. Image of p. 533 at Google Books {{cite book}}: External link in |quote= (help)). 96.29.176.92 (talk) 15:31, 5 June 2016 (UTC) & update 01:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

And what year was that? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Geography (Ptolemy) c.150.CE. The lead paragraph notes Eusebius § Onomasticon c.300.CE using Perea. However, Eusebius may of used terms derived from an earlier non-extant Onomasticon by Philo c.40.CE. But I am not up to date on the specifics of the matter. 96.29.176.92 (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

• Περαία —Peraia, and Peraea or Peræa: the country beyond.
• Πετραία —Petraia, Petraea: adjective regularly used in Ptolemy's Geography when he is writing of Arabia Petraea.
• Πέτρα —Petra: literally rocks, was the capital city of the Nabataeans.
• Πέρα —Péra: a place further away (πέρα), in contrast to a place nearby Pélas (πέλας).

96.29.176.92 (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Septuagint East Bank

Per the Septuagint c.132.BCE. The East Bank = hay·yar·dên miz·raḥ = πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου (Joshua 1:15 & Numbers 34:15) = trans Iordanen

"Joshua 1:15". The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, with an English translation; and with various readings and critical notes. Gr. & Eng. S. Bagster & Sons. 1870. p. 281. Image of p. 281 at Google Books {{cite book}}: External link in |quote= (help).

• Are there any extant quotes from Philo et al. before Pliny & Josephus ?

96.29.176.92 (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

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More about 390-630s: Palaestina Prima

It's mentioned once, w/o a source (!), that it was part of Palaestina Prima (390-630s). On that page there's not even a single mention of Palaestina Prima, and in the Livias art. it only reads that it was "included in Syria Palaestina (135), Palaestina (286) and Palaestina Prima (425)", so 35 yrs after the province was created (why, how come, what was Livias or all of Peraea part of in the meantime?), and again: unsourced! So we have enWiki-wide no sourced info on Peraea as part of Palaestina I. Not acceptable. Arminden (talk) 08:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)