Talk:Periyar/Archive 7

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Neutralizing

I've neutralized "Ideals and Criticism" section quite a bit. I hope people here would be mature enough not to indulge in mercilessly reverting my edits or accuse me of indulging in Brahminism or Aryanism. Please bear in mind that despite the fact that this article has some defects, I have been assuming good faith all along expecting to solve all outstanding issues in the talk page rather than nominate this article for a WP:GAR. I do not wish to indulge in confrontation and I need your cooperation to ensure that such a situation does not arise. Thanks-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Your edits have not been mercilessly reverted, but explained if it had, or explained first before reverting. I understand your concern with the neutralization. Having looked at your edits, you have been neutral. Regards. Wiki Raja (talk) 19:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I was just making my point clear. It wasn't specific to anyone. By the way, I've neutralized most of this article. I cannot find any more neutrality issues. Nevertheless, according to the suggestion made by the GA reviewer, we will have a second peer-review before an FAC. If any issue does arise, we will solve it then.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 04:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

1957 Ramnad riots

I propose that a section on Periyar's activities on the 1957 Ramnad riots be created and expanded.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 04:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Images

• Removed File:Periyar1973.jpg as invalid fair use, free images of Periyar are available in this article
• I also noticed that many images like File:Annadurai and Periyar.JPG, state the source as Dravidar Kazhagam and Permission obtained through email. The email should be forwarded to wikimedia via WP:OTRS system. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Periyar's photographs

I am currently translating this article into French, and find out that there are no pictures of Periyar on Commons !

As I am not conversant with the origin of the different pictures and the attached rights and corresponding issues (and being rather clumsy with Commons), I will not attempt to copy some of them myself. But can't someone put at least a few free pictures of him on Commons ?

More generally speaking, all articles on Tamil people, or even culture, have more or less the same issue : no picture at all available on Commons. A pity reallly, and something which won't help develop a world-wide knowledge of Tamil culture.

Regards. --Azurfrog (talk) 10:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

removing section

I have removed the God believer section. This doesnt belong in a biography. It is purely speculative based on a single guestbook entry from 1925, nearly 50 years before his death, during which he wrote reams and reams of atheistic rants. He himself had self contradicted himself in many places (mostly for the sake of being polite and to curry temporary favours). For example, he has remained civil and polite while speaking to brahmin association meetings, praising and not attacking them. --Sodabottle (talk) 09:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

FAR

I know User:Wiki Raja worked hard on this article. dont remember if he thought about FAR and why not. with no shortage for references, we should be able to address all concerns. --CarTick 11:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

How about getting it peer-reviewed again. Its been a year since its GA. The GA -reviewer felt that we should get it peer reviwed again (GA review page). Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 15:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

let us go for it then. --CarTick 22:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Telugu or Kannadiga?

I'm really confused about the exact origin of Thanthai Periyar.Most of the sources mention him as a Balija which is a Telugu speaking Merchant Community of Andhra Pradesh.But a few sources mention him as a Kannadiga.However all sources mention him as knowing both languages in addition to Tamil.In Wiki articles about EVK Sampath and EVKS Elangovan,they are mentioned as Balija Naidus(Telugu) and related to Periyar as his brother's son and grandson.Then how come Periyar became a Kannadiga? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

He describes himself as a Kannadiga in many speeches. For example while explaining why he chose to renam the Justice Party as Dravida Kazhagam in 1944, he said in the salem party conference "Kannappar is a Telugu, I am a Kannadiga and Annadurai is Tamil. While i am open to calling myself a Tamil, other Kannidagas won't.. [thus the name "dravidar kazhagam"]" etc. --Sodabottle (talk) 07:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

FYI: EVK Sampath's wiki entry doesn't state he is a Kannadiga because the info was removed by the same user who did Naicker&diff=prev&oldid=349797237 this. Now that I have reverted the removal it should be fine. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 11:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

E V Ramaswami Naicker was of Telugu origin belonging to Balija Naidu caste (Kapu/Telaga/ontari)

Kindly refer to the following most authentic reference regarding the origin of Periar. Paula Richman in " Many Ramayanas" writes that Ramaswami Naicker was " BORN IN 1879 INTO A FAMILY OF BALIJA NAIDUS, A TELUGU JATI OF TRADERS AND CULTIVATORS, HE GREW UP IN ERODE , A FAIRLY IMPORTANT MERCANTILE TOWN IN THE COIMBATORE DISTRICT OF MADRAS" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.81.121 (talk) 21:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

THE SOLUTION

Since the bone of contention seems to be the language Periar had spoken why not remove the word "Kannada" from Kannada Balija Naicker" in the article ? All Andhras feel that Ramaswami Naicker was cent per cent a Telugu man as he was a Balija Naidu(A Telugu caste).Kannada people want to identify Ramaswami with them as he hailed from karnataka and might relish the word 'Kannada Balija Naicker". Tamilians want to identify Periar with them as Periar was the champion of Dravida cause and lived in Tamil Nadu.Since the regional emotions are ruling the roost the best bet right now is to remove the word "Kannada" from Kannada Balija Naicker and to simply use "Balija Naicker" when reference is made about him in the article.This gives credence to the article without any bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.81.121 (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

It is not about what all of us want. It is about facts. And the fact is he himself identified himself as Kannadiga. And the people making emotional arguments are the Telugu origin POV pushers. Rest of us are using references to back up our claims that he identified himself as Kannadiga. --Sodabottle (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

can we not settle down for a compromise which includes all the three connections. --CarTick 18:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Its already the case cartick. We call him a Kannadiga and a Balija Naidu - both true. The problem is Telugu Balija Naidu people dont want to acknowledge the fact that migrants from that caste could have adopted a different language as mother tongue. It happens all the time in the world. They want to remove the Kannadiga part and call him a Telugu and Balija Naidu. Thats where the problem comes in - the man himself identifies as Kannadiga in multiple places. --Sodabottle (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

And when i point out the "adoption of other language" happens often 184.57 chooses to insult me as "bragging" about "forgetting my roots". Sigh. Look at the "compromise" he has arrived at - removing Kannada from the Balija Naicker part to remove "bias". How do we talk rationally with such people? This is not a dispute about regionalism at all as he makes it out. Two Tamils - San Roze and me - are arguing (with multiple references to back us up) that Periyar is a Kannadiga, while Telugu editors are arguing he is a Telugu. They are arguing all Balija Naidus are automatically Telugus which is wrong. --Sodabottle (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand. these trolls are often rude. Well, I thought, we could add a sentence that Balija Naikkars or Balija Naidus (whatever) originally hail from Andhra. But, now, reading your comments, we are not even sure if this is true and even if it is, sounds extraneous. --CarTick 19:19, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Stating that Balijas are from Andhra is not needed within the scope of the article. Repeated pestering by some trolls should not be a reason to compromise the quality of the article. It is a GA and it is best we don't let some trolls take it away from us. EVR claims that he is Kannadiga and that is the end of the argument. IP 184.57... doesn't make any sense on us being POV pushers. What difference would a couple of Tamil guys gain by calling EVR as Kannadiga over Telugu? Given the political war of words and protests going on between the states one would assume that calling him Telugu would be much more comfortable for a Tamil. 184.54.. is going on with a futile argument to push his/her POV on us. EVR's ancestors might have had Telugu has their mother tongue and before that proto-Dravidian. Shall we get that far? Aww am losing it! lol Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 08:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Assuming or even agreeing that Periyar forgot his original mother tongue Telugu after long period of domicile in non-Telugu region, it is fair enough to agree that Balija social group is a typically Telugu community. His name in Telugu script does not harm any.Kumarrao (talk) 09:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Assuming or even agreeing that Periyar forgot his original mother tongue Telugu nice try at reasoning kumarrao. Either the man's mother tongue is telugu or it is not. We have proof (his own words) he is Kannadiga. it is fair enough to agree that Balija social group is a typically Telugu community. This is not the place for making the argument. The Bajija Naidu article would be the place to do so. This is a GA article and we have standards to maintain and we dont have to satisfy everyone's linguistic/caste pride.--Sodabottle (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, not that i have something to say, was jus imagining if periyar himself had read this argument. He fought almost his entire life to abolish caste and religion and this argument about the man by the same "caste priders" periyar hated. Its like fighting over the caste of Ambedkar, its completely ironic. So much could be added more to this article, and these "caste priders"... sheesh, cant imagine ppl like this exist. I appreciate the way sodabottle and others who defended the article.Lotadutt (talk) 14:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Telugu by Origin,Kannadiga by domicile

EVR is mentioned as a Balija Naidu(Telugu)in many articles but in most of his speeches he mentioned himself as a Kannadiga.Probably Periyar's ancestors settled for a long time in the Kannada Country and over many years they primarily spoke Kannada and only rudimentary Telugu as Kumarrao had mentioned.Thus Periyar was a Kannadiga by upbringing but a Telugu by origin.There are many Telugu Families settled for many centuries in Tamil Nadu and Karnataka who primarily speak Tamil/Kannada and only rudimentary Telugu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"probably", "primarily speak" etc are WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. We can only add what the references state explicitly - a) He is a Balija Naidu b) His mother tongue is mentioned as Kannada in multiple places c) He too refers to himself as a Kannadiga. Add a WL to Balija Naidu and do the explanation about those settled in Karnataka there. This is not the place to push Telugu origin theories of Periyar.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Vaiko and Vijayakanth are Kammava Naidus(Telugu) but have call themselves as Tamilians many times.Vaiko has even supported LTTE several times in his speeches.But they still remain of Telugu origin and speak rudimentary Telugu at home.Even former Cheif Minister J.Jayalalitha who is a Mandyam Iyengar remains a Tamilian even though her ancestors settled for many centuries in Karnataka.And Balija Naidu is a Telugu Caste.I can show many Telugus settled in Tamil Nadu and Karnataka who refer to Tamil or Kannada as their primary language but speak rudimentary Telugu at home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thats exactly the point of WP:OR. you can "show" and "prove" your points by research elsewhere. But not in Wikipedia. Unless some book or other reliable source specifically says "Periyar spoke rudimentary Telugu" you cannot add it to wikipedia. I am going to revert your additions again - if you revert them back, i will report you to the admins and trust me, you will get blocked. Read the no original research policy once again, you will see what i am trying to say.--Sodabottle (talk) 13:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

To clarify further - i am not disputing some Telugu caste people (Nayakkars, Reddiars etc) in TN speak Telugu at home (and its not "rudimentary", it is a distinct dialect). But the converse is also true - a lot of us don't (I am one of them and my family hasnt spoken Telugu for eighty years now). But what you and I know is not relevant for Wikipedia because for Wikipedia, we are not Reliable Sources. Additionally we don't have any source that says E. V. Naicker's family spoke Telugu. None of his biographies say they spoke Telugu at home. The most authoritative one on his earlier years is Thamizhar Thalaivar by Sami Chidambaranaar (his long time friend and associate), which is used as the main source by all other authors, specifically says he spoke Kannada, Tamil and Telugu fluently and his mother tongue was Kannada. --Sodabottle (talk) 14:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Recently I came across a few people who call Periyar a Kamma Naidu,some people call him a Kannada Naicker.Even people in the Tamil Nadu Naidu Sangam are confused whether he is a Telugu Naidu or a Kannada Naicker.Even some sources tell one or the other thing.The only reliable source is the man's words which state he is a Kannadiga.Since the great man hated caste and fought against it all his life,it would be better to call him a Kannadiga instead and remove Kannada Balija Nayakar from the article.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 03:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Congrats!!

this is one of the several well written articles... had a pretty good read. :)--Onef9day ^Talk! 09:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

THE PROPER SOLUTION

Periyar is known as a Balija Naidu in a few circles.Few people call him a Kamma Naidu.Some articles say he is a Kannada Naicker.The great man himself was least interested in his caste and called himself as a Kannadiga in his meetings.So instead of calling him a Balija or a Kamma or a Kannada Naicker or worse still a Kannada Balija Naidu,why not simply call him a Kannadiga instead and remove Kannada Balija Nayakar from the article till we get a proper source confirming whether he is a Telugu or has Telugu ancestry or neither.In any case Thanthai Periyar fought against Caste all his life.So I feel nothing wrong in simply calling him a Kannadiga and deleting all references to his caste in this article.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 02:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that is not the way we work around here. We report what reliable sources have recorded and cover topics in the same proportions as the sources do. Active Banana (talk) 02:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand that Wiki needs reliable sources,no doubting that.But in this case we have different sources with different authors saying different things.Some say Periyar belongs to Telugu Naidu community,some say he is a Kannada Naicker.Even the Tamil Nadu Naidu Sangam is divided over whether he is a Telugu Naidu or a Kannada Naicker.The great man called himself a Kannadiga and that would just be the only reliable source.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 03:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

In situations where we have reliable sources saying different things it is PRECICELY the times in which we record all the major views giving the weight to each "side" as is represented by the scholarly community. Active Banana (talk) 03:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Raghavan2010, there is only one (acceptable) source from Paula Richmann (which is not a biography in any means) which says that he belongs to "Balija Naidu, a Telugu Caste". All other references including Sami Chidambaranaar's bigoraphy (The single most authoratitive biography on his early years) use the term "Kannada Balija Naidu". Official biographies from Dravidar Kazhagam says so. So that's what says here. We discard whatever the Caste outfits say because they are not neutral sources. Each caste tries to claim as much notables for themselves as possible. Please stop your POV pushing; it is getting tiresome.--Sodabottle (talk) 03:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Its enlightening to see how Telugu/Balija Naidu POV pushers attempts has changed - first claim he is a telugu and never spoke kannada. Now that we are providing multiple references to the contrary, they are trying to keep Kannada and remove Balija Naidu. Sigh!.--Sodabottle (talk) 03:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Sodabottle,I'm not discounting that Periyar may have been a Balija but since a few sources say Kannada Naicker,Kamma etc,it would be wise to call him a Kannadiga instead.I'm not a Telugu POV pusher and never said that Periyar never spoke Kannada.Just that I saw Balija in a few articles,I had to open the debate of Telugu ancestry.But on seeing sources containing Kannada Naicker,Kamma etc I feel that we would be better off calling him a Kannadiga instead and not mention his caste.If the DK says Kannada Balija its ok to post it here as there are many communities in Karnataka having Balija name who are not related to Balijas at all like Idiga Balija,Surya Balija etc.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 04:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Raghavan, I am using the most referenced source on Periyar's life to the term "Kannada Balija Naidu". It is Sami Chidambaranar's 1939 biography of Periyar. It was an authorised bio, vetted by the man himself. All later biographies then used the same. Here is a English source that directly quotes from Chidambaranar's Tamilar Thalaivar (5th page of the PDF). All the DK publications call him "Kannada Balija Naidu". Hope we can rest this here. --Sodabottle (talk) 04:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I've already said its ok to post Kannada Balija/Naicker/Naidu here if DK sources say it.Further I've said that there are communities having Balija suffix in Karnataka who are not part of the Telugu Balija Community.So we can rest this issue here.

04:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)04:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)04:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs)

(edit conflict)

(I typed this before i saw your reply in case other people have doubts regarding this. I compiled a list of sources)

The term "Kannada Balija Naidu" is used here, here and here to describe Periyar. The term is also used in Eugene Irschick's Politics and Social Conflict in South India (which is one of the authoritative works on 1920-40 Tamil Nadu politics). here is a Madras High Court judgement which uses the term. To summarize: We are using the term "Kannada Balija Naidu", because that is how most of the authoritative scholarly works (and he himself) describe Periyar.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I would like to add a line here.Balija Naidu caste are from Andhra but Balija also means Merchant.It is a South Indian derivation of the Sanskrit term Vanijya,a curropt form of Vaisya.Vanijya became Balija in South India and Baniya in North India.Those Telugu Warrior groups who came into Trade became Balija Nayaks literally meaning Warrior Merchants.Nayak is a honorary title meaning commander.Over time many Non-Telugu trading communities started calling themselves Balijas and got the Nayak title through employment in the Vijayanagara Army though Telugu Nayaks were a majority there.So,Periyar would have belonged to one of these minority non-Telugu trader communities who called themselves Balija literally meaning trader.The Nayak title is a legacy of Vijayanagara Empire.If Telugu POV pushers are not satisfied with the proofs Sodabottle has given,they can take a look at this.Any trivial edits will be removed.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 02:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

semi-protection

this article seems to be a target of a wide-range of POV pushers, from pro-Telugu, pro-Kannada, pro-Tamil to anti-Tamil. permanent semi-protection can be of help. --CarTick 17:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Ask here. However, requests are normally accepted only if the vandalism has been recent and persistent. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 17:50, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Please give semi-protection to the article.I observed some trivial edits today and removed them now.Raghavan2010 (talk) 03:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

As SBC-YPR mentions above semi-protection is only given if the vandalism is persistent. As there were only(!) two incidents yesterday, we won't get semiprotection even if we apply. Right now we have atleast five active editors who are watching the article, so any mischief is being by caught by us. If vandalism continues, we can apply here WP:RFPP--Sodabottle (talk) 04:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess I'm the only editor active right now.So far no acts of vandalism.We can look at improving the artcile by adding some more sources and information.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 04:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

People influenced by Periyar

I recently saw "Marakka Mudiyuma" programme on Kalaignar TV.Tamil Legend NS Krishnan's grandson describes him as a Periyar follower.Also I happened to see an interview of Rajinikanth where he describes Periyar as a real spiritualist on the web but unfortunately the link is blacklisted by Wiki.How do I add a suitable reference now?

Raghavan2010 (talk) 10:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Try other sources - if the only reference for the information is a blacklisted website then the probabilities of it being inaccurate are higher. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 12:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I can find good sources for NSK's involvement in DK. (But he split from Periyar along with Anna in 1949). But for Rajinikanth it is tough to get a report in Hindu or a similar paper, because he makes this kind of statements every time he opens his mouth and unless it is controversial no one takes it seriously.

Sources for NSK's politics - [1], [2]. His's family site also claims the same. --Sodabottle (talk) 12

35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link.I've some difficulty in adding it.Can anyone please help with regard to this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs) 13:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I will add it shortly--Sodabottle (talk) 14:12, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

What about Kaviyarasu Kannadasan?I heard he was a good friend of EVK Sampath who was the nephew of Periyar.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 14:36, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

He was not a senior member of the DK. I believe he was very junior then. I wouldn't say he was "influenced" by Periyar. His autobiographies (mana vaasam, vana vaasam) don't show any regard for Periyar. He belonged to the faction that worked to dilute Periyar's hardline policies. And he too left with Anna in 1949 (and later with EVK sampath to form the Tamil National Party. During the 1949 split, he was part of Anna's attack squad on Periyar - saying things Anna couldnt say in public. --Sodabottle (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, it depends upon what you call active :-). A lot of us have eyes on the article but its not high on our priority list to edit it further. When you edit it, remember this is a GA and has reached this state after a great deal of discussion arriving at current consensus. So if you are making large edits, its better to drop a line in the talk page (only for large scale edits)--Sodabottle (talk) 04:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Concerns

Here are some issues of concern which need to be addressed:

1) The article is titled "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy Naicker" but then, was he not more popularly known as "Periyar" than "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy Naicker". I suggest that the article be moved to Periyar (politician). Also, the Tamil transliteration should be for "E. V. Ramasamy Naicker" than "Periyar". And though Periyar was a Balija Naidu of Kannadiga descent, since he was born and brought up in Erode district and spent almost his entire life in Tamil Nadu, I don't think a Kannada transliteration would be necessary. If at all, we had to provide transliterations based on ethnic origins, then people like Vijayakanth and Vaiko should have their names in Telugu script also. This is, obviously, ridicuous.

2) I also find that the article speaks little of his public life between 1947 and the early 1970s. I request people to add more info on the period.

3) This article, definitely, has some NPOV issues as the main editor who expanded the article and nominated it for a GA appears to have ignored published criticisms of Periyar. I request fellow Wikipedians who have been monitoring this article to work on this. I also request them to keep an eye on this article as it has been the target of severe pro- and anti-Periyar POV-pushers who have been fighting out a battle here.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 02:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

(switched bullets to hard coded numbers for easier discussion, I hope you dont mind, if you do please revert) Active Banana (talk) 03:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

RE: #1) Unless the majority of the reliable source referred to him solely as Periyar, (such as Madonna) we would not use a "nickname" for an article title. (and if so, we should use Periyar as the page with the current contents of that page moved to Periyar (disambiguation)) I am unqualified to comment on the remainder of the points made in the first bullet. RE: #2) I too support filling out content for such a large number of years, providing there are actual sources that can help us in that task. 3) NPOV is a definite concern. Active Banana (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

RE #1) The mononym "Periyar" became popular only after his death. After the Dravidian parties took over TN, they deified him and made him mononymous as "periyar" or worse as "Thanthai Periyar". Contemporaries always referred to his as either "Periyar E. Ve. Ra" or "Periyar EVR" or "E. V. Ramasamy Naicker". Even today right wing Tamil press like Tughlaq and [Dina Malar]] refuse to call him only as Periyar. He is always Periyar E. Ve. Ramasamy Naicker or just E. V. Ramasamy Naicker for them. So "Periyar E. V. Ramasamy Naicker" is the most common name used during his life and after death. I have no issues with removing the Kannada script though.

RE #2 and #3) Valid concerns. I support these. It is a common problem for Periyar biographies sourced from official DK sources. I can do this, but for personal reasons i prefer to wait. But if someone is willing to work on this earlier i can provide good sources and pointers. In any case i will be doing what Ravi points out (filling up 1947-1973, adding contemporary criticism from Communists, DMK and Swatantara) by say October 2010. --Sodabottle (talk) 06:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

In Jayalalitha article,you can find Tamil script though she is a Tamil Brahmin whose family was domiciled in Karnataka for many centuries since the Chola period.So I see nothing wrong in having Kannada script here as Periyar's family were Kannada Merchants domiciled for many years in Tamil Nadu since their migration from Kannada speaking areas in Vijayanagar period or later.2 & 3 definetely need some research and good sources.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 03:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs) 03:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added EV Ramasamy Naicker in both Tamil and Kannada scripts.That partly takes care of concern no.1. Raghavan2010 (talk) 07:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Though initially against removing the Kannada script since EVR was a Kannada speaking Balija of Telugu Ancestry who migrated from Vijayanagar and the fact that the Jayalalitha article has script in ethnic language,I finally removed it after some thinking since Ravichander felt otherwise and other editors had no issues with the same.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

2 & 3 have also been addressed somewhat with Veeramani fluff removed from Later Years and Controversies section expanded a bit.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Naicker as a caste name

Without getting into Nayakkar/Naidu technical details - in 1929, when he dropped the name, it was certainly used as a caste surname. His speech in the conference, announcing the dropping makes this clear - he was asking others to drop caste based surnames and says he will drop "naicker" to set an example. If we reword to say it was not a caste surname, then the question arises why he dropped it at all. In short, when he dropped it was used a caste name and thus should be referred to as such. The explanation/etymology is not in purview of this article (the Naicker/Naidu article is the place for it)--Sodabottle (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

If we are to include it the footnote has to explain it with references why and how "nayakkar" came to be considered a caste name. But the article text should make it clear he was dropping it as a caste surname --Sodabottle (talk) 13:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Well,Ok then.If you feel its not required here we can remove it.No issues about that.:)

Raghavan 14:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs)

In my footnote however I mentioned that Naicker is a legacy of Vijayanagara Empire and inherited by the descendants of the commanders of the Vijayanagara Army.So that could be restored.No compulsion though.:)

Raghavan 14:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghavan2010 (talk • contribs)

I originally wanted to retain that footnote. I searched for references and checked whether Naicker is used as a caste name now. The TN govt caste list does list a number of naickers. But after that it becomes complex.:-) Since the term is in use as a "caste" name, the footnote will become much longer. I believe we can wikilink the term to Nayak (title) and add the explanation under the south india subsection there.--Sodabottle (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess a Wiki Link to Nayak would be enough.Actually certain vandals want to make Naicker a caste name.Had a hell of time removing plenty of nonsense from the Nayak and Naidu articles recently.

Raghavan(Talk) 15:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Vaishnavism and EVR's Family

Though its a well-known fact that EVR was a Balija Naidu whose ancestors migrated during the Vijayanagara Period from Kannada speaking areas adopting Kannada as a mother tongue in the process,I still am not able to figure out how they were followers of Vaishavism and not Saivism.Generally speaking,Balija Naidus domiciled in Karnataka are Saivas and identify with the Lingayat(Veerasaiva) Community who are the single largest community in Karnataka at present.

Raghavan(Talk) 13:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Easy question :-). Venkatar-chinnathai did not have any kids for ten years into the marriage. Tried all deities, rituals, parigarams and visited various temples. They conceived a child (krishnasamy - periyar's elder by four years) after they prayed to Thirupathi venkatachalapathi. Thus the faith in vaishnavism (both their boys were named after avatars of Vishnu). This info is there in Sami Chidambaranaar's Tamilar Thalaivar.--Sodabottle (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info.Since I'm a Tamil domiciled in Karnataka(Living here since birth) and know somewhat about the major castes here I had this doubt lingering for sometime.

Raghavan(Talk) 14:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Kannada script of name

We have an IP editor contesting the removal of the Kannada script now. And accusing other editors of POV. (Funny how editors who won't lift a finger to improve articles get offended at people who actually edit stuff). Any more reversions would mean an edit war again. Let us discuss and try to establish a consensus here. My opinion is neutral. I normally consider adding a native script for transliteration purposes. But i checked other articles and it seems there is a rough consensus for native tongue script adding. --Sodabottle (talk) 13:53, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Sodabottle,Actually there was a opinion by Ravichander,one of the senior editors who had developed the article.He has listed it out here in the talk page under Concerns.According to him,even though EVR was a Balija Naidu who spoke Kannada at home there is no need for a native script since many others who had settled in the Tamil Country for ages have no native script in their articles.I initially thought of retaining the Kannada script giving reference to Jayalalitha article,but since this is a GA and a senior editor like you had no issues with removing the Kannada Script,I removed it.

Raghavan(Talk) 14:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

You did the proper thing. But now there is one IP who is disputing the issue. Per our established policy, lets keep this discussion open for say another week. (If the IP shows up, we will engage him in discussion, if he doesn't we will remove the script by the end of the week).--Sodabottle (talk) 14:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact is that EVR is of Telugu Origin,spoke Kannada at home and considered himself a Tamilian having lived in Erode for centuries.There are several speeches where he spoke regarding this which have been added to the article giving all 3 connections.According to Ravichander,a Kannada script was not necessary to prove he is a Kannada speaker.He gave a valid point:If Wiki gives scripts based on ethnic origin we would have this issue with many articles.However,I removed it when other senior editors said they had no issues.Some troll is unnecessarily vandalizing the article just to prove his point that EVR is a Kannadiga.I've seen similar vandalism in Madurai and Tanjavur Nayak pages where a few IP editors have made the he discussion pages as nonsense by repeating posting caste claims when experienced editors had asked for reliable sources for the same.

Raghavan(Talk) 14:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Now we have a senior editor asking for semi-protection.Lets form a consensus for this with other editors.I'm even thinking of alerting Active Banana on this.

Raghavan(Talk) 14:39, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

None of the above arguments are valid to remove the name In Kannada since they are synthesis. The article has a RS that states the respected Periyar stated that he is a Kannadiga by origin. Adding name in Kannada in no-way undermines his reputation as a great Tamilian. We all respect him for his unique contributions to the society at-large. Please do not remove the Kannada name. It will be reported as a vandalism. Cheers.23:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.15.82 (talk)

76.212.15.82 is going on with a futile argument to justify his POV pushing.Senior Editors who developed this article and made it a GA have already said that though EVR is of Telugu origin and spoke Kannada at home,native scripts are not necessary since tomorrow an issue may arise for giving native scripts for other people who have been living for many centuries in TN.None of us are saying that EVR is not a Kannadiga.However we can't provide native scripts due to concerns made by a few senior editors.Please try to understand.

Raghavan(Talk) 01:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Your statement "However we can't provide native scripts due to concerns made by a few senior editors" Does not follow Wikipedia Guidelines that no-one owns the article" 76.212.15.82 (talk) 07:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Somebody is going to want to include African scripts because after all, all humans originated in Africa. Mr. anonymous, stop pushing your script POV. Pls also let us know what else you have done to this article before you show up with a different number. --CarTick 01:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Then Why you need Tamil in English Wikipedia Mr or Mrs Cartik 76.212.15.82 (talk) 06:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

EVR is a Telugu and Kannadiga in equal measure who identified himself with the Tamil Diaspora having settled in the Tamil Country for many years.No disputing this fact.We have added a lot of facts showing all 3 connections like some his speeches saying:I'm a Kannadiga from the Balija Naidu caste.While most of my people won't consider themselves as Tamils,I'm open to calling myself one etc.However,adding scripts for linguistic reasons is not allowed for the reasons I mentioned above.

Raghavan(Talk) 02:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

No Synthesis based on your research Please. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 06:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Cartick,That was a nice point by you.Had a great laugh.:D

Raghavan(Talk) 02:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

What is a 'Sr Editor'. Where is it defined in Wikipedia?? 76.212.15.82 (talk) 06:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Where Does Wikipedia says that GA articles cannot have appropriate multi-language scripts.76.212.15.82 (talk) 07:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The name in Kannada need to be retained as per original developers of this article since it is based on a strong RS from reputed organization DMK. Removal will be reported to ANI as vandalism. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 07:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

We are not disputing Periyar is a Kannadiga (read the article, where it is mentioned in multiple places). The native script is needed only for transliteration purposes,not to claim ethnic ownership by the communities involved. The name is transliterated well enough in Tamil (which was the subject's primary language). You are accusing people who have been long involved in editing the article of vandalism. Feel free to report to ANI - You will be asked to either discuss it here or take it to mediation. --Sodabottle (talk) 07:34, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The subject of the article is about a person not language. Therefore all languages he was intimately associated particularly his mother-tongue Kannada need to be in the lead as followed in other Wikipedia articles such as TP Kailasam, etc.. BTW ' You will be asked to either discuss it here or take it to mediation' In discussions please do not assume the role of an Administrator if your not one. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 08:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. I need not be an admin to predict what will happen at ANI.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

you've already heard more than needs to be explaned to you. nobody is going to take an anonymous user seriously who has done nothing in this English wikipedia but to add a non-English script in some random article because he has just recently found out Periyar to be a great man and decided adding Kannada script will somehow retain some kind of ownership to Karnataka. --CarTick 12:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I have not heard from other than a specific group pushing their POV. FYI Wikipedia allows anonymous editors. It does not require a rocket scientist to learn that respected Periyar is a a great man. Please learn to respect his heritage which he was proud of. Cheers 76.212.15.82 (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism of removing original Kannada script should stop as per Wikipedia norms. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I have been watching this for some time now and 1st of all would like to congratulate for very nice article. I agree with your statement 'I prefer Kannada script to remain here for the sake of Periyar's Kannadiga roots only. However, i'm not hell bent for it. if majority says no, so be it. IP please do not conflict on this. WP has some rules that one can't ignore. If you want, you can open a poll for everyone to participate. Hope this will be some help. Secondly, WP is not a language-war space. You are free to host a blog for that purpose. for initial start "http://churumuri.wordpress.com/" will do. --Onef9day ^Talk! 21:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I agree with some of your comments. I am a long term Wikipedia reader and occasional editor. I understand this article is about a person not language. However, I have never seen justifications similar to following given above group of editors to remove the Kannada script.

1. This a GA article
2. A Sr Editor said so
3. I think he is Telugu
4. etc etc

They are wrong. When Tamil exists Kannada also need to exist in the article just like in the article TP Kailasam. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 04:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You conveniently missed the explanations i provided - a) Native scripts exist for transliteration/transcription purposes; not for the ethnic community to claim ownership of particular subjects b) Don't bring in OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument here. If you want remove the Tamil script from TP Kailasam article, it is an issue to be discussed there not here. You are accusing editors who have worked in this article of vandalism - when we are rationally trying to engage in discussion with you here without edit warring. --Sodabottle (talk) 04:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Let me sum up what happened:

1)There was a prolonged discussion/edit war whether Periyar was a Telugu or Kannada. Rough consensus was reached with multiple sources that Periyar himself referred to himself as Kannadiga

2)Since one of the reasons for the edit war was about adding the Telugu script to the name, Ravichandar84 (one of the article's original developers) proposes in talk page that only Tamil should remain and Kannada should be removed

3)No one opposes his proposal and some second that. I for one remained neutral on that.

4)After many days Raghavan removes the Kannada script as none has opposed the proposal

5)76.212 shows up, challenges removal and accuses other editors of vandalism. What he/she conveniently forgets is, we are not trying to hide Periyar's Kannada heritage or something like that - in fact everyone involved in removing the Kannada script are the ones who found exact quotes and RS for proving Periyar considered himself as Kannadiga (read the discussions and edit history)

6)So what we have here is a group of editors already involved in editing the article trying to implement what we think is a consensus to avoid future edit wars over script inclusion and a single IP who accuses us of vandalism.

If you want remove the Tamil script from TP Kailasam article, !!!!???? Use of both Kannada and Tamil is appropriate in that as well as in this article. BTW Please do not suggest to vandalize other well written articles. No Wheeling-dealing please. I not here for that purpose. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 07:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

After many days Raghavan removes the Kannada script as none has opposed the proposal Why, none of you opposed on an ad-hoc change?. His/her justifications were pure synthesis based on personal research. You sounded like correcting it but conveniently went along with it for no reasons. Kannada should be retained based on the current RS in the article. Here those supporting to retain Kannada are not fighting for Kannada. It is not a language issue. They are just justifying the name in Kannada just like use of Tamil. BTW Just because someone/group started an article they do not own it. 76.212.15.82 (talk) 07:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

To 76.212.15.82

You claim to be a Telugu and want all languages EVR is associated with to be given in transliteration based on Reliable Sources.Then what stopped you from posting his name in Telugu?There are Reliable Sources which show that though he spoke Kannada at home,he belonged to Balija Naidu caste,a Telugu group.Even his biography and speeches say the same.Why this sudden affection only towards Kannada then?

Raghavan(Talk) 04:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Article Needs Correction

The article already has a RS (23) that states "He has declared himself as a Kannadiga in many of his meetings. An excerpt from one of his meetings: "Many people say I am not a Tamilian myself. They are saying this because my mother tongue is Kannada. Many think that I am a Telugu Nayudu.The truth is that I am a Kannadiga from the Balija Nayudu caste. 'Periyar E.V.R's speeches, Dravidar Kazhakam publication, 1990, Chennai'[3]". The Kannada script need to be re-added. Appagaru (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Appagaru, if you are same as 76.* IP, it would be nice to identify yourself so (not particular, but would be easy to avoid repeating the same things to you, i have already said to him)--Sodabottle (talk) 15:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I will make sure to read to my best before I comment. I do not mind if someone repeats an important issue. ThanksAppagaru (talk) 06:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You missed the broader picture of that speech.Though he called himself a Kannadiga there,he also said that he belonged to a Telugu caste and some people were not willing to see him as a Tamilian purely coz of his origin though he considered himself one.We added it as a reference to show all 3 connections and prove Telugu POV pushers that while he did belong to a Telugu caste,he himself had explicitly said his primary mother tongue was Kannada among all the 3 connections.

Raghavan(Talk) 16:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Please tell me where respected Periyar admitted that he belonged to a' Telugu caste'. By the by, I do not know if there is/was something called language based caste such as 'Telugu Caste'. Most South Indian castes are spread among different languages. The bottom line is that RS posted in the article state that his primary mother tongue was Kannada. Therefore please correct your action and re-add Kannada as it was already in the article. At least 3 other editors have somewhat felt the same way. Appagaru (talk) 06:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Appagaru, we are not denying Periyar was a Kannadiga - we (Raghavan did the actual addition) are the ones who looked specifically for and added those RS to make it beyond doubt that Periyar considered himself Kannadiga. Why did i not oppose removing Kannada script? because i hoped it will avoid edit wars and discussions about adding Telugu and Kannada scripts to the article (there have been many in the past). So the solution we hit upon was add Tamil alone - It is enough for phonetic transliteration purposes and as a native script search string. Adding Kannada script serves only one purpose - showing he was a kannadiga (linguistic/ethnic pride - "he is one of ours"). This is accomplished by the footnote Raghavan added, which clearly shows Periyar considered himself Kannadiga. The Kannada script is needed for transliteration and it is useless as a search string (as coverage on Periyar in Kannada sources is minimal).

In short : a) we have made it clear within the article that periyar is a kannadiga b)Kannada scripts serves no actual purpose other than ethnic/linguistic identification, which is already accomplished. c) removing the script will hopefully avoid repeated edit wars in the future over telugu/kannada script inclusions.

Hello Sodabottle. Thanks for your explanation. However I do not agree that Kannada has to be removed to avoid edit war with those who want Telugu script. Some other justifications are very subjective. If RS exists then Telugu script can also be added. Many castes such as Baligiga are spread across more than one language. In this case, as per RS (and what I have personally heard from DK members which may not matter for Wikipedia) the fact is that Periyar Sir had clarified that he was a Kannadiga. The article's lead should reflect it as it reflect's Tamil. PN; It appears our multi-user system is compromised. I may have to take a break for a while. I will try to follow-up. Appagaru (talk) 07:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Appagaru,Balija Naidu is identified as a Telugu group.It would be better if you check the Balija article instead of discussing about that here.

Raghavan(Talk) 10:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

However,I do not dispute your case that some castes in South India are spread over different languages.I'm a Tamil from Bangalore and seen many such examples like Telugu Iyengars,Kannada Niyogis,Sankethi Iyers,Tamil Reddiars,Marathi Arya Vysyas etc who have adopted a different mother tongue from what their caste normally speak.

Raghavan(Talk) 10:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I will add my input here, which is that the rule here is verifiability. In order to show that the Kannada script records his name, we need a reliable source that includes the name in that script. Otherwise we are doing an Original Research, even though it may be obvious to some that speak that language, everyone else needs to be convinced that it is correct and actually used. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Respected Periyar's name in Kannada script can be seen in many RS. For example, his name in Kannada script appears in the front page article of a highly reputed Kannada Daily Kannada Prabha's Sunday May 9 2010 issue. Hope I addressed the justification to retain the Kannada script.Appagaru (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Appagaru,Try to get a readable source.:)The Kannada Script is appearing as codes there.-Raghavan(Talk) 15:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I can view Kannada script on my PC with latest IE. Can someone tell me if I can upload a screen shot of a news paper article to Wikipedia. Thanks Appagaru (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

not sure if a reliable source carrying somebody's name in some script is sufficient to inclusion. --CarTick 23:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Please do not feed the trolls. The IPs and above user are all socks of a community banned editor, whose ban lifting request was also turned down a few months ago. I did not see this earlier, if I had I would've addressed it earlier. —SpacemanSpiff 03:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

ZOMG! this is naadapriya's handiwork?--Sodabottle (talk) 03:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like we need to apply for an extended semi-protection taking Spiff's statements into account then.I and Soda were having slight suspicions on whether Appagaru was the same IP user.--Raghavan(Talk) 04:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Later Years from 1949 to 1973

I've just asked Wiki Raja to address this area of concern.Waiting for his response.In the meantime,if anyone has any small bits of information regarding EVR's activities between 1949 to 1973,notably his association with the then Chief Minister Kamarajar they can post them here.-Raghavan(Talk) 12:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

1) This has a lot of information on the later years (not arranged chronologically, so read all chapters). 2) R. Kannan's Anna:Life and Times of Annadurai is another good source. (I will take care of adding info on this particular time period after September, if someone hasn't added it till then).--Sodabottle (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

we wrote about Kamaraj and Periyar's relationship in the election articles between 1952 to 1967. see here for example. --CarTick 23:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Seems everything is like a jigsaw with few bits scattered here and there.Will check out the sources provided by Soda as well as election pages on Wiki which have been stated by Cartick.-Raghavan(Talk) 14:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

on thirukural

I have rewritten the section to read his views on thirukkural are just that - his views alone. An editor has been adding citation needed tags, but the entire section is sourced to veeramani's book. There is no need to balance out his views with counter claims. It is enough to say he believed X about Y. The balancing/countering has to be done if his views are presented in Thirukkural/Thiruvalluvar article, not here. This is just a biography.--Sodabottle (talk) 13:13, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 14.139.128.15, 6 March 2011

Very recent scientific genetic study of diversity of Indian lineage, reported in one of the top scientific journal of the world "Nature", the excerpt says "One ancestral lineage — which is genetically similar to Middle Eastern, Central Asian and European populations — was higher in upper-caste individuals and speakers of Indo-European languages such as Hindi, the researchers found. The other lineage was not close to any group outside the subcontinent, and was most common in people indigenous to the Andaman Islands...." web reference: http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090922/full/news.2009.935.html This scientific study indeed strongly support Periyar's view of casteism which is essentially linked to the arrival of Aryan group and such social system was introduced to overpower the well established Dravidian settlement in the Indian subcontinent. 14.139.128.15 (talk) 09:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Not Done. This is not the article to go into any depth about Aryan/Dravidian racial theories and any interpretation of one specific study as a valdiation of periyar's views on race will be the start of an edit war of people quoting other studies and interpreting them as debunking of periyar's views. Periyar had a wide range of views on subjects, this is not the place to prove and disprove the views. This is merely the place to state all of them.--Sodabottle (talk) 10:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Major Edit done to the Controversies section

I've added information on Periyar's spat with B.Munuswamy Naidu using references from The Justice Party page.Plus I've also categorized controversies.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 10:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Since apparently it was not a spat between 2 men but rather a faction fight in the Justice Party with Periyar just an observer who supported the anti-brahmin faction,I have reworded the section a bit and changed the heading.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Many publications from DK party did denounce principles of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. Though I dont have citation at hand, it should not be hard to find.

173.3.39.251 (talk) 02:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Balija Naikar

Periyar was a Balija Naidu of Telugu origin whose forefathers migrated from Vijayanagar empire. Over many years of domicile the Naidus/Naickars spoke either Tamil or Kannada but rudimentary Telugu at home. Kumarrao (talk) 06:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a reference for the above statement, else it will have to be removed. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

This kurma rao and in other names he made total wiki pedia as balijapedia. I dont know why people of wikiaccepting his claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.156.166 (talk) 07:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Periyar mother tongue is Kannada , there is enough sources provided in article. he belongs to Kannada nayakar family -> [4] and Kannadiga -> [5], Kumarrao, wikipedia don't accept your unsourced claims, wikipedia needs reliable sources.

Ramaswami Naicker is a Balija Naidu, which says that he is of Telugu origin as Balija Naidu caste is 100 % Telugu caste. Ramaswami Naiker and his family living in Karnataka or moving into Tamil Nadu state doesn't make them Kannada Balija Naickers or Tamil Balija Naickers respectively.They are still Balija Naickers and Telugu remains their mother tongue no matter where they live.In the same token the great engineer Mokshagundam Visveswaraiah that migrated from Andhra to Karnataka can not be made a Kannada speaking Brahmin and his mother tongue still remains Telugu. Being Telugu man he made all Telugus proud with his contributions to Karnataka.MGR of Malayali ancestry did not become Srilanka Nair or Tamil speaking Nair eventhough he lived in Srilanka and Tamil Nadu respectively.Super star Rajanikanth did not become Kannada speaking Gaekwad or Tamil speaking Gaekwad eventhough he lived in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu respectively and his mother tongue remained Marathi. Then how come Periar, a Balija Naidu(Naicker) of Telugu origin became Kannada speaking Balija Naicker one wonders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.35.157 (talk) 02:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing to wonder when you realise that Rajinikanth is the first generation immigrant whereas EVR's ancestors were already domiciled in Kannada speaking local of Madras Presidency. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 11:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC) PS: As for his family not becoming Kannadigas: please be sure that there are significant numbers of Marathis in Karnataka. There is a Belgaum border issue where Marathis supposedly make a majority too. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 11:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 216.239.45.4, 28 May 2011

Request to remove or reword the sentence "Despite Periyar's views on Anti-Brahminism,several Brahmins today,notably Actor Kamal Hassan[93] are Periyar followers.", as it does not cite any sources showing many brahmins are following EVR, and actor Kamal Hassan (who is anti-brahmin, though born to brahmin parents) may be an exception. 216.239.45.4 (talk) 00:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done --CarTick (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request: spelling fix to Tamil language and writing section.

The second sentence of the fourth (last) paragraph reads "In stone inscriptions frpm 400 or 500 years ago". That word should obviously be "from".

The first sentence is frankly unintelligible to me, and obviously needs repair, but I don't have a specific correction in mind. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I have corrected the typo. The first sentence is unintelligible to me too. Will do some reading and try to clarify it.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. (I marked the edit request template as done, too.) 71.41.210.146 (talk) 01:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Periyar is an atheist

Attempt is being made in this article to show that periyar favored other religions. Dubious sources with link to evangelistic and fundamental organizations have been used to justify this.

Please edit the article which shows favor to any religion.

Periyar was very clear when he said "Bane of Tamizhians is Brahmins, Muslims and Christians consider themselves to be Tamizhians." He did not consider those religious followers as Tamils.

In his weekly, he condemned both Christianity and Islam. He did not devote that much to condemning those religions as their followers were few. Periyar is hard core atheist and he did not have any sympathy to any organized religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truetamilan1 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The point you make is mentioned in the "controversies" section. In my view the article makes it clear what his stance on religions was. I am now sure how this text show he favoured any religion.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for answering my question.

But why should Periyar's views on Islam and Christianity be in Controversies section? On more than one occasion, Periyar has critized organized religions including Islam and Christianity. Is'nt Periyar's statement " Bane of Tamizhians is Brahmins, Muslims and Christians consider themselves to Tamizhians" correct place the "Religion and Atheism section?

Below two statements which are the author's own conclusion portray Periyar as favoring Christianity and Islam.

Periyar viewed Christianity similar to the monotheistic faith of Islam. He explained that their faith says that there can be only one God which has no name or shape. Periyar took an interest in Rev. Martin Luther, where both he and his followers wanted to liken him and his role to that of the European reformer. Thus, Christian views such as that of Ram Mohan Roy's The Precepts of Jesus has had at least an indirect influence on Periyar.

Anita Diehl.(1977) "Personal View of the author" According to him, the first duty of a government is to run the social organisation efficiently, and that the philosophy of religion was to organise the social system. Periyar pointed out that while Christian and Islamic religions were fulfilling this role, the Hindu religion remained totally unsuitable for social progress.

Saraswathi. Towards Self-Respect

Just like Periyar's role as Dharmakartha of Hindu temples and Periyar's not cooking non-vegeteraian food for over a month for accomodating Marimalai Adigalar cannot be construed as his consideration for Hindu religion, the above two statements which are author's self views should removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truetamilan1 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request:Periyar as atheist

First of all, thanks for answering my question.

But why should Periyar's views on Islam and Christianity be in Controversies section? On more than one occasion, Periyar has critized organized religions including Islam and Christianity. Is'nt Periyar's statement " Bane of Tamizhians is Brahmins, Muslims and Christians consider themselves to Tamizhians" correct place the "Religion and Atheism section?

Below two statements which are the author's own conclusion portray Periyar as favoring Christianity and Islam.

Periyar viewed Christianity similar to the monotheistic faith of Islam. He explained that their faith says that there can be only one God which has no name or shape. Periyar took an interest in Rev. Martin Luther, where both he and his followers wanted to liken him and his role to that of the European reformer. Thus, Christian views such as that of Ram Mohan Roy's The Precepts of Jesus has had at least an indirect influence on Periyar.

Anita Diehl.(1977) "Personal View of the author" According to him, the first duty of a government is to run the social organisation efficiently, and that the philosophy of religion was to organise the social system. Periyar pointed out that while Christian and Islamic religions were fulfilling this role, the Hindu religion remained totally unsuitable for social progress.

Saraswathi. Towards Self-Respect

Just like Periyar's role as Dharmakartha of Hindu temples and Periyar's not cooking non-vegeteraian food for over a month for accomodating Marimalai Adigalar cannot be construed as his consideration for Hindu religion, the above two statements which are author's self views should removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truetamilan1 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Periyar with Jinnah and Ambedkar.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Edit request from , 31 October 2011

Can you please add this to further reading section. This is peer reviewed paper.

• Unintended influence of Jainism on the development of caste in post-classical Tamil society

Tkarthi03 (talk) 04:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Declined. Nice paper, i dont see anything related to Periyar in it. It will be a nice addition to Tamil Jains article.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Under the section "Comments on Brahmins,Dalits and Religious Minorities" a single quote is misused and misinterpreted to falsely state that Periyar was anti-Muslim and anti-Dalit. Periyar campaigned against Hinduism and defended religious minorities such as Muslims against Hindu fanaticism. Hence it is false to misinterpret a single quote to state a lie in order to defame Periyar as anti-Muslim. Periyar was never anti-Muslim and in fact he was the opposite, he defended Muslims against Hindu fanatics. Similarly, Periyar was never anti-Christian. Periyar preached atheism and sought the destruction of Hinduism because of the Hindu caste system, but he never preached against Islam or Christianity. There are thousands of quotes of Periyar in Tamil language in which he has defended Muslims, and also praised Christians, but these quotes cannot be cited in English. Similarly, Periyar fought against the entirety of the caste system and fought for the liberation of all oppressed by the caste system including Dalits, hence it is false to insinuate that Periyar was anti-Dalit. Periyar was never anti-Dalit, he campaigned for the eradication of caste and liberation of Dalits. There are several statements in this wikipage that falsely states Periyar was against Muslims and Christians, and this is fundamentally false. Periyar's primary goal was not against Islam or Christianity but destruction of Hinduism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Killivalavan (talk • contribs) 17:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I seriously suggest that you have a look at this book to understand Periyar's opinion on Tamil Muslims.-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 18:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Personality Cult

The personality cult of this article has been taken to sickening lengths. Periyar is the name given by his admirers; his name always remaihed E.V.Ramasamy Naicker. Also he was not born as 'Periyar' or joined the Congress Party as 'Periyar' in 1919. Wikipedia is not a platform for a personality cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.206.138 (talk) 22:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC) The statement that Periyar belonged to Balija naidu caste is factually wrong. His mother tongue is Tamil and he has quoted this in several of his speeches. His community is also listed as Tamilar in the Backward class list of Tamil Nadu Government. Niranjas (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 May 2012

Kindly add the following passage that corrects the false statements under the section titled “Comments on Brahmins, Dalits and Religious Minorities” in the Wikipedia page of “Periyar E.V.Ramasamy”. I am submitting the following passage of correction to correct the false statements in the aforementioned Wikipedia page that falsely alleges that Periyar was anti-Dalit and not much of a supporter of the minorities by quoting a statement of Periyar out of the socio-political context of that statement (which seems critical of Muslims).

To claim Periyar was not supportive of religious minorities such as Muslims or that he was anti-Dalit are grossly false claims that have been made by misinterpreting and misquoting Periyar out of the socio-political context of his statements. Periyar called on Dalits to summarily convert to Islam and called on all non-Brahmin masses – including the so called Shudras (non-Brahmin intermediate and lower castes – known as “backward castes”) and Dalits to summarily reject Hinduism and embrace atheism or Islam. He also called on backward castes and Dalits to find common cause and solidarity with religious minorities such as Muslims and Christians against Hindu extremist violence. Periyar’s followers are in the fore-front of campaigning against Hindu right wing fascism that violently targets religious minorities such as Muslims and Christians, and in working for camaraderie between Muslims and the masses comprising of backward castes and Dalits. Periyar also worked, wrote and campaigned extensively for the liberation of Dalits and Dalit rights. A collection of his statements regarding his work and views for Dalit liberation and Dalit rights, including his calls for Dalits to convert to Islam and his call for his followers to express solidarity with religious minorities such as Muslims can be read from pages 113 to 334 in the pdf file that can be accessed by clicking on the following link: http://fs.gallup.unm.edu//Periyar.pdf.

Periyar also wrote a book on the glory of Islam called “Islam ennum inmarunthu” (the sweet medicine called Islam) and used that book as a manifesto to call on Dalits to convert to Islam. Hence it is totally wrong to say that Periyar was not supportive of religious minorities such as Muslims. http://www.radianceweekly.com/168/4074/morally-bankrupt-but-materialistically-rich-the-nation-turns-62/2009-08-23/northeast-newsletter/story-detail/islam-is-the-antidotean-analysis-of-periyars-views-on-is

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/periyar-advocated-conversion-to-islam-to_topic15904_post296322.html

http://books.google.co.in/books/about/Periyar_on_Islam.html?id=nvcQAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

Iniyan elango (talk) 01:59, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mdann52 (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

NPOV tag

A section is tagged as being non-neutral. A quick scan of it does reveal a few phrases that could be a bit peacocky. It was added with this edit [6] over a year ago. This is currently ranked as being a good article, which it can't be with this tag on it. AIRcorn (talk) 12:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I've boldly tackled the section in question. You can see details in the edit history, but essentially my strategy was to:

1. more specifically attribute big claims (ended caste system, discrimiation against women, etc.) to a particular source
2. more clearly attribute Periyar's views to him to avoid the appearance that WP is explicitly endorsing his ideas
3. removing a few more peacocky statements altogether (per WP:PEACOCK)

Let me know if you think the edits solve the issue. Thanks for flagging this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I will have another read through soon and see if any other issues exist. AIRcorn (talk) 11:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I have kept the article as being Good. Thanks for your improvements. AIRcorn (talk) 09:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Violence by Periyar foloowers

Periyar E. V. Ramasamy died in 1973 now incidents in 2006 and 2013 are being added to the article.Hindu Munnani was founded in 1980 years after he died.This is not part of his biography hence removing it.After going through the biography of Rajaji and various sources found no attempt being made on the life of Rajaji this is a serious accusation can you find a clearly Reliable sourced when and where it took place.I am removing the section. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

young picture

Guys, looks like this picture [7] is not Periyar's young picture. In Frontline news, Picture 9[8] says he is A.Subbarayalu Reddiar of the Justice Party, who was the first Chief Minister of Madras Presidency. Change this picture and put up the other Periyar picture. Icommoner (talk) 23:10, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.76.99 (talk) 13:34, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Use ordinary given name

Please use the ordinary name of the person , in this case, E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker ,. Stop using "Periyar" since that is the title given by worshipful followers of the man. May be in one or two places "Periyar" may be used, to show how some people held him, but referring to the person most of the time by an adulatory title Periyar is against every Wikipedia rule or even decency. It is jarring on the readers.165.225.76.99 (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Dravidian movement

The Dravidian movement started in 1916 with the formation of the Justice Party and was not started by Periyar .Periyar was not even a member of the Justice Party he was Congress party member and only later joined the Justice Party and became its head only in 1937. THE Dravidian movement in Tamil Nadu can be dated to begin from December 1916 when the "Non-Brahmin Manifesto" was released.Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam 's own official website here 1916 Dr. T. M. Nair, and Velludai Vendar alias Sir. P. Theagaraya Chetty established a political party on 20.1.1916. It was named as “South Indian Liberal Federation”. In order to propagate the principles of the party, a daily named “Justice” was started. Dr. Nair was its first editor. At a later stage, the party was called as “Justice Party” after the daily. In Tamil, it was called as “Needhi Katchi.” The historical South Indian Liberal Federation, which was later called as the Justice Party, is the birth of the Dravidian movement. Also Here Further he is commonly referred as Periyar including by the Government of Tamil Nadu with many institutions like Periyar University named after him and most newspapers refer as Periyar which is more common Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:39, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2019

Periyarfraud (talk) 14:20, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2019

There is no proper proof regarding Periyar getting UNESCO award. Only his supporters say that. But his name is not found in the list of UNESCO awardees. I have given the list of UNESCO awardees till 1998 from UNESCO website below. https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000111158?fbclid=IwAR3ccSps4KjbY3tmnsHfv17yhUujZn9kJr27PFs0HRjj_QbQ_zBAJp-yHzk

Thus this detail should be changed. Jag2019 (talk) 08:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done NiciVampireHeart 11:22, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Page Moved to E. V. Ramasamy

Periyar is an Alternative Name given by His Follower. As Alternative name doesn't require any special space on the Article Heading, This article should only be in the Name of E. V. Ramasamy as both Alternative Names Cannot exist in the Title. Explanation for the Periyar Title was alread well mentioned within the Article. Having Alternate Name of a person among supporter along with Official Name will lead to confusion among Reads, So the Page was moved to E. V. Ramasamy Page from Periyar E. V. Ramasamy Page. Please Discuss further Before any Chance to page. Article with correct Name Reference Thank You. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NewGen.Kat (talk • contribs) 19:12, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Please request at Requested Moves this has been extensively discussed Talk. Periyar is his more common name.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2019

Unfortunately someone (not belongs to his country or his community) removed the award from this page.

Award : Unesco Rumilus (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NiciVampireHeart 20:19, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Periyar funeral.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2019

The section on Vaikom Satyagraha is poorly structured, temporally inconsistent and repetitive. Anxrn (talk) 14:00, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what change(s) you want to make. Please make a precise request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:47, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2019

Manikandaraj Srinivasan (talk) 13:33, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2019

E. V. Ramasamy Nayakar Manikandaraj Srinivasan (talk) 13:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:40, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Controversy

Periyar has been centre of many controversies especially with views on Hinduism warrant a separate section, with reference to the recent controversy which incidentally has also gone right to the judiciary- Amitized (talk) 05:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)Amitized

References

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2020

In the Vaikom Satyagraha (1924–1925) the last two paragraphs are already published at the start of the section. "According to the prevalent caste system in Kerala and the rest of India, low-caste Hindus were denied entry into temples. In Kerala, they were denied permission to walk on the roads that led to the temples also. (Kerala state was formed in 1956; earlier it was broadly divided into Malabar (North Kerala), Cochin and Travancore kingdoms). In the Kakinada meet of the Congress Party in 1923, T K Madhavan presented a report citing the discrimination faced by the depressed castes in Kerala. That session decided to promote movements against untouchability.

In Kerala, a committee was formed comprising people of different castes to fight untouchability in the region. The committee chaired by K Kelappan, composed of T K Madhavan, Velayudha Menon, Kurur Neelakantan Namboodiripad and T R Krishnaswami Iyer. In February 1924, they decided to launch a ‘Keralaparyatanam’ to gain temple entry and also the right to use public roads for every Hindu irrespective of caste or creed." Wik sandeep (talk) 06:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done--Goldsztajn (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2020 (UTC)