Talk:Permadeath/Archive 1

Archive 1

Discussion of gamers

I pulled out some of the discussion of hardcore gamers. While some discussion is clearly relevant (permadeath is something typically associated with hardcore players while being against permadeath is typically more "mainstream"), it really went off topic. For example Ultima Online was totally off topic as it never featured permadeath. A discussion of move from "simulation" MMORPGs to "gamey" MMORPGs is interesting, but more of a topic for MMORPG than poor little permadeath. Alan De Smet | Talk 01:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I have touched a little on the psychology of pd vs non-pd gamers in my last edit - mostly as a way to make your "some say" point and counter point additions flow a little better. Feel free to butcher away again. I'm not going anywhere and it'll help strengthen the article in the long run, even if I feel that some relevant stuff gets lopped off in the struggle. Newsmare 06:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you're straying pretty far from a NPOV. You've added statements that are more opinion than fact. For example, suggesting that lack of permadeath is "a relatively shallow depth of experience" and that "...those looking to play under the shadow of permadeath recognise that these consequences heighten their experience with their character while they're alive." The article comes across very pro-permadeath. I definately feel that anti-permadeath players and designers are portrayed as somehow lesser. There is a condescending tone toward the anti-permadeath side. There is a very active debate about the merits and flaws of permadeath and I don't think the article conveys that terrible well. I'm going to resist a major edit right at this moment; I'd like to know your thoughts before I dive in with any non-trivial changes. Alan De Smet | Talk 00:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Permadeath RPGs are just relatively extreme gaming, with all the depth of experience that entails - certainly more so than the threat of death in non-pd games which this article needs to namecheck in order to give it a frame of reference. I wouldn't argue with an article on basejumping that said it was a relatively extreme sport that provides a relatively deep spiritual or heightened emotional experience. I wouldn't argue with a claim on that page that said basejumpers paid more attention to safety than those involved in a sport that didn't have the slightest chance of death either. Nor would I argue that these people were in fact being a hell of a lot braver than chess players.

Maybe these facts are just so obvious that they don't need stating though. Regardless, you'll notice in my quotes I used the word "relatively" and said "those looking to play [...] permadeath [...] heighten their experience". I don't see anything there about those choosing not to, other than the fact they're choosing to play less extreme games. If that's perceived as negative because it insults some fragile sense ego in someone who's spent many years and thousands of dollars cultivating a completely false view of themselves as all-conquering heroes then that's their problem, not the articles.

Obviously we're all potentially massively POV, we'd all be pathetic push-overs otherwise (ooooh POV), but I'm trying my best to be as NPOV within the article as passion allows. Keep the dialogue going and if the argument's good enough we'll go with what we've got until something even better comes along and trumps it. As for the debate on merits and flaws that are yet to appear, I look forward to reading/presenting/editing them. Newsmare 08:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

(Hrm, that probably enough indent levels for now.)

I'm not sure how extreme you can get sitting in front of your computer or console and playing a video game. If your console came installed with a gun that actually shot you when your character died, or perhaps it drained your bank acconts, I'd be more prepared to say players "that that investment to the extreme". What we're talking about here is severity of penalty, a penalty that is usually measured in time. Given that, calling a game with permadeath extreme verges on hyperbole. The same goes for heroism. As the player is risking nothing more than time and perhaps some emotional involvement, you're never going to get "true heroism" in a video game.

Ok, so you're intentionally misunderstanding me here then. I've used the word 'relatively' more than enough times to make my point clear surely? Obviously I'm not claiming it's extreme in the grand scheme of things. I would say that suggesting I'm taking that stance is spin, so perhaps you're entering the realm of exaggeration yourself. Take a random 6 month old MMO character and wipe it... tell me that's not extreme loss relative to the usual gaming experience. If it's from a pay to play MMO then guess what happened to your investment of time and money? Also, re the 'shot IRL' and 'drained bank account' comments, are you telling me a player wouldn't be grieved in real life about it, or that 6 months of fees that in any non-pd game would still hold a liquidatable value being wiped out isn't a quantifiable financial loss? Newsmare 19:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

To take the two examples I called out. "...relatively shallow depth of experience" is opinion. "Relatively" doesn't change the bias in the statement, it simply reduces the magnitude. You're labelling games with permadeath as having deeper experiences, a claim many would challenge. "...those looking to play under the shadow of permadeath recognise that these consequences heighten their experience..." also suggests that those against permadeath fail to recognize this statement as fact. The implication is that 1. it is an accepted fact permadeath heightens experiences (a fact not yet established), and 2. Those who are anti-permadeath are willfully ignorant of the fact.

I would suggest that point 2 above is confirmed if people won't see point 1 for themselves. Most gamers avoid pd games because they don't like how a big GAME OVER makes them feel. The fact that they will play similar characters in places where it won't die forever suggests that temporary death doesn't make them feel so bad, ergo the depth of feeling that pd facilitates through potential or actual loss is greater than non pd. Basically, it would take an idiot not to see that the closer a system models reality, the more realistic the experience is within that system. The events therein can still be of a fantastic nature, but as the simulation approaches reality, it's going to evoke an increasingly more intense response from participants. Where's the argument? Newsmare 19:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've overhauled the first pro-permadeath paragraph. Take a look and let me know what you think. The first anti-permadeath paragraph needs work to, I'll get to it "soonish". I'm reasonably familiar with the debate and I think I can flesh it out with a few more arguments.

Personally, I can't see how your edit changes the message. You've said practically the same thing as me, but with a lot more repetition. Choice words for repetition are 'permadeath', 'increased' and 'significance', a net concept which is conveyed in the first sentence of your edit. I've made some changes, incorporating the additional content you added. Let's see how it sits. Newsmare 19:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Relatedly, given that the anti-permadeath group includes both the majority of MMORPG players as well as a sizeable subset who spend 40 or more hours playing per week, I don't think "casual" game is a suitable term. I'm not sure what is.

Alan De Smet | Talk 14:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

On the whole I think the paragraph in question is improving. I really disagree with "without permadeath there is little actual incentive to consider your actions quite as seriously as you would in real-life." One's decisions in real life typically aren't life-and-death. Most decisions are made weighing the pros and cons, the benefits and potentially negative consequences and costs. There is risk even when death is on the line and it strongly influences ones decisions. There is hardly "little actual incentive"; is most MMORPGs there are negative consequences that most players would avoid. Obviously it varies from game to game. While the consequences do tend to be minor (on the order of hours) for most, it's possible to have significant loss without permadeath. The most striking example is Eve Online where a mistake can cost months of gametime as a player created corporation is destroyed. The losses on Eve Online can be more severe as they are much more likely to impact other players (in the form of their similar time and monetary investments in the corporation). Lesser examples include the risk of destroying a large guild (the sort of thing that takes months or years to create) through bad management, or losing hard fought territory in games where various factions can claim territory.

When I said "as you would in real-life" I meant "as you would in a similar situation in real-life". Choosing to walk alone in enemy colours through a known gang-bang hotspot for example (i.e. travel abroad in a faction based MMORPG) or wandering into a forest to fight bears would be a fair example. People would just not up and decide to do something like that completely unprepared. Games like Eve and Shadowbane, where corps/guilds can be ruined is again a slightly different scenario to PD. Although the risk is there, it's unlikely to happen suddenly and without a concerted team effort to prevent it. These events take a while, as opposed to character death which can happen in the blink of an eye. They are systems with great potential though, both of them. -newsmare.

I suppose my point is that permadeath is not toggle without which players have little incentive to consider their actions. It's a single step across a spectrum of options. Permadeath does happen to be pretty far along the spectrum toward the "high risk / more significant choices", but it's not a lone case. Decisions of similar severity are through other forms.

"Most gamers avoid pd games because they don't like how a big GAME OVER makes them feel." This is a major assumption. I would suggest most gamers avoid permadeath games because typically after a permadeath you simply restart and replay content you've already played. The very content you (hopefully) enjoyed the first time (or first ten times) suddenly becomes your punishment for failure. It's not about feeling bad; it's about facing many hours of not having fun, it's about the game suddenly becoming a job you have to do before you can get to the fun again. Alan De Smet | Talk 05:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, you have break out of the mindset that gamers have been trained into over the years to help them hand over their money. A well constructed PD environment would not be constructed like a modern MMO. It would be more of a sandbox, less of a structured game. Therefore you wouldn't necessarily have to re-tread the same path, and advancement might only be through player versus player interaction, the human factor of which would reduce that feeling further. The single player example I provided for the article was NetHack. That's massively replayable because, although it's still very much a closed environment/goal oriented game, it's a deliberately a lot more random than most SP games. It's also stayed in a state of constant development which is unusual for a SP game, and in fact is quite similar to the fluidity of MMOs where balance, rules and features are added or tweaked all the time. ◄ИΞШSΜΛЯΞ► 21:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, a pretty serious overhaul.

- I tried to make the first few paragraphs more general. They were pretty MMORPG specific, which seemed like a bad idea. I moved that content into the online play section.

- I removed some prognostication about why permadeath won't succeed. I think it's a pretty obvious conclusion and guessing about the future really isn't Wikipedia's place. There might be a place for a less forward looking, "many claim that games with permadeath cannot achieve mainstream success."

- I overhauled the online play section to try and improve the flow. It now opens with "What's the state of permadeath today", flows into "Why permadeath" followed by "Why not permadeath", then the discussion of games in development.

- I reworked the "why not permadeath" pretty much from scratch. Notably I tried to pull pro-permadeath discussion into the "Why permadeath" paragraph and expanded it.

It feels like there is still a lot of redundancy in the text. It could probably use further pruning.

Alan De Smet | Talk 05:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Intro text

From the third paragraph: "Of course, true heroism will only ever manifest itself in an environment where the potential hero has everything to lose, but given the choice between the illusion of heroism, or heroism in an illusion, most gamers will choose the former because it's the path of least resistance." What in blazes is that supposed to mean? It sounds like flowery language, but for the life of me, I can't seem to extract any meaning. Viltris 06:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Illusion of heroism: loading up a game where you automatically get to be the hero. Everybody is a dragon slaying champion who cheats death, amasses ungodly riches and weilds artifact weapons, all you've got to do is ride the ride for long enough. That's gaming on rails, a nice safe world where you really aren't going to lose - so in reality nothing you do there is ever actually heroic, hence the illusion of heroism.

Heroism in an illusion: loading up a permadeath game where you start as a nobody like everyone else until you really risk your characters life (and all your time and effort) to try to earn the gold, artifact weapons and respect that heroism brings. Although the game world is an illusion, the risks taken on the part of the players involved is still real, hence getting the chance to be a hero within the illusion. Old characters here will either have lead a safe, boring life and won't be particularly noteworthy, or they'll have surmounted seemingly bizarre odds, taking other's lives and probably saving many too along the way, including their own.

Path of least resistance: most gamers like their little comfort zones where they pay a one off or monthly fee to be a 'special' person in a sea of 'special' people, and will take the former option because it's easier and infinitely more acheivable to them. These are the people that balk at the mention of permadeath, because they can only handle a flat-line gaming experience as opposed to the intense peaks and troughs experienced when it's all or nothing. Obviously, some games do try to capture that experience by letting you risk items from your inventory, or whatever the penalty for 'death' is, but few have gone so far as to put everything on the line.

So... yes, I suppose the way I put it was a bit flowery, a bit fucking Zen if you like, but I figured the sort of people interested in the challenge of permadeath gaming would be able to infer all the above for themselves without me having to be so verbose. I'll try and think of a replacement for it that's a little less tacit - you're, of course, welcome to do the same in the meantime. Newsmare 10:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've made an attempt at rewording it - but will leave the above here on the talk page in case it prompts further refinement. Newsmare 11:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Implications of Permadeath in Game Design

Permadeath would seem to require fundamental changes in MMORPG game design. Given the lack of MMORPGs with permadeath, I really have no direct information on the matter. If someone knows of good information (say interviews with designers or information on actual shipping games), it seems like it would be an interesting addition to the article. On the down side; is there solid information? I suspect we can find discussions by developers on games that either terminated without shipping or were modified to not have permadeath, but those simply amount to wishful thinking. Alan De Smet | Talk 03:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Zen of Design has this article and this article. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 19:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Out of game fee?

Apart from the obvious, are there any games with an out-of-game fee to revive a character or to create a new character? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 19:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Story-based permadeath

Couldn't events like the death of Aeris in Final Fantasy VII and the death of Nei in Phantasy Star II be considered a form of permadeath? Crimson Shadow 18:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not by any definition I've heard of. Permadeath is about risks that the player is taking. Scripted loss of an NPC isn't about risk; it's a required part of the game. Unscripted loss of an NPC is more marginal, but usually permadeath refers to the PC's existance being on the line (the death of a useful NPC is a nuisance, but typically doesn't end the game). Alan De Smet | Talk 20:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Maybe this should be clarified in the article? Crimson Shadow 13:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

a way to add permadeath in a game

you just have to put heaven and hell , or another post-death place, this place cannot have the same amount of things that has on the places that you can go when you are alive (because if they made a very cool post-death place, stayng there would be a good thing and the bad thing in dying would be gone). Like for example making a dungeons and dragons game (a other dungeons and dragons game, a gamemore based om books) and adding contents of the book that wizard made that explain how to play after death.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.2.13 (talk) 02:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Citations needed

I think the article is in really solid shape, but it could citations and references. Presumable credible people have written about these issues. Here's a scratch space to start collecting them: — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Glater, Jonathan (2004-03-04). "50 First Deaths: A Chance to Play (and Pay) Again". New York Times. Retrieved 2007-02-02.
• Schubert, Damion (2005-04-12). "Please, Not the Permadeath Debate Again". Zen of Design. Retrieved 2007-02-01. - Discussion of Permadeath design by a developer who has worked on MUDs, Meridian 59, and several other designers. (Thanks Damian Yerrick for pointing out the article.)

Deletion of article?

I have added a "{{prod}}" template to the article Permanent death, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. 132.161.187.62 10:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC) (This comment imported from here.)

I've removed the template. It failed to "explain why." The links above fail to clairify the situation (WP:NOT covers a large chunk of territory). Trying to defend the article at this time is not realistically possible as I'm not a mindreader. However, this is useful article that documents an important game design concept. It's a concept under near-constant debate in game design. Excluding it would make Wikipedia weaker. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

One major reason against permadeath, not mentioned

I'm a bit surprised that this article doesn't even mention the biggest problem with permadeath: that sometimes characters die due to out-of-game circumstances such as power failures or crashes to desktop. Losing a character because one bit off more than one can chew is one thing, but losing a character because your brother tripped over a power cord is another thing entirely. Powers ^T 11:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen solutions to that problem in MUDs. Simply provide an automatic mechanism for your character to flee. This is often called a "whimpy level". If you are in a fight, and do nothing, when your hp gets to too low a level your character will flee. If you think you can win you can override the whimpy level and so risk your life to complete the win, but you do so knowing that it is a risk. QuantumG (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to second this. If sources can be found, this is something that should certainly be added to the main article. The main reason I personally do not like perma-death is two bad experiences I have had. Losing my best sword in the original Way of the Samurai due to a power outage, and losing a high level battle.net character in Diablo 2 hardcode mode due to lag. Once problems like these are solved, I might be willing to try a game with perma-death again, not before. — Odin_son 20:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

References

Here's a place to dump possible references that might be used for citations in the article: — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Schubert, Damion (2005-04-19). "Beating a Pale Horse". Retrieved 2007-05-26. (credentials)
• "Permanent Death in MMOGs". 2001-01-28. Retrieved 2007-05-26. - Online chat between a number of people about permadeath. Includes the lead dev for Dawn (a game that never shipped), the lead dev for Adellion (another game that never shipped), and several editors. On the up side, it's real developers. On the down side, the pro-permadeath people are developing games that haven't shipped and are unlikely to ever ship.
• Klastrup, Lisbeth (June 14-16 2006), "Death Matters: Understanding Gameworld Experiences", Proceedings of the 2006 ACM SIGCHI international conference on Advances in computer entertainment technology, Hollywood, California, USA, ISBN 1-59593-380-8 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link) Seven page paper on death in games. Only directly mentions permadeath briefly, but may contain other information.

article organization

The multi-player section is poorly organized. There are games that feature or featured PD mentioned at the top, then some text about the controversy surrounding PD, then more games. The games all need to be listed together, either at the top or the bottom. Otherwise the reader has to sift through the text to put together a list of games. The games can be mentioned redundantly in the text if they are relevant to a point, but a clear list must appear somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.143.202 (talk) 01:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The point of the article isn't to provide a handy list of games with PD. The section opens with some notable examples, which seems relatively important. The remaining games are universally minor league, and not worthy of as much of a note. (Indeed, an argument could be made to delete some of them.) — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I've tried my hand at improving what was already there, added one notable early adopter (full disclosure: which I am involved in), and separated things out into current vs. not-current. I question whether some of the games linked are notable, and researching them prompted me to prod one. Jclemens (talk) 04:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Missing Games

I think one of the earliest examples of a Permadeath game isn't included. I'm talking about Oregon Trail. I'm not adding it cause I'm not sure if it fits in the context of the article.67.182.10.151 (talk) 12:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that takes me back. I'm not really sure if it does either, but it certainly sounds like a legitimate progenitor--I'll see if I can add it in reasonably. Jclemens (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

There isn't an expectation in the original Oregon Trail that you would play the same character over an extended period. You played for an hour or so and were done. If I recall correctly, it didn't include the ability to save, emphasizing the short nature. Permadeath does seem an appropriate label for such a game, any more than it does for Pac Man. I realize this doesn't jive with the current definition, which discusses computer RPGs and not extended play duration. Upon reflection, I think it's the wrong definition and we should tweak it. Note the inclusion of non-RPG Steel Battalion in the discussion, which I believe is very appropriate. — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Path of Exile should be in there somewhere. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.86.114 (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the X-Com series should probably be included. The player can't die, but the soldiers commanded may be killed during the mission. If that's the case then, the soldier is no longer available. Specially in the more recent iteration of the game the player may invest in a character a lot of time and lose it if it gets killed (or gravely wounded and not stabilized within 3 rounds). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.247.105.26 (talk) 00:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Permanent death types

The article only describes the essence of what permanent death is (that the character is removed from the game permanently after death), and then goes on to describe the views of both sides of the debate on why they think it is a good / bad design principle. What I miss here is a short description on the various types of implementation of PD that can be done.

There are atleast 3 core designs of PD of which various deviations exist (in design, I haven't seen all that many released PD games)

Limited lifes: You start with a limited amount of lifes, if you lose all those lifes, your character is gone. A special version of this is the Ironman mode, where you get only one life. My POV: I find that this is by far the most common type of PD that is discussed, especially the Ironman version. Many opponents of PD that I have talked with initially think of Iron Man when they discuss PD, and many proponents also limit their discussions to the idea of 1 or multiple lifes found within the Limited lifes type when discussing PD. However, this is subjective information as its my personal observation, and I don't know how I can make a NPOV statement out of this so lets not add it to the article.

Limited time: Everyone dies permanently after an amount of time, after which a new phase starts. This is already implemented in a few browser based MMO's like Kings of Chaos. The amount of time is usually set up front (as with Kings of Chaos), but design variations exist where the phase ends when a certain goal has been met(though these games are obscure as I can't find proof of it again)

Regenerative PD: you start with a low amount of lifes but if you have lost a life or more you can regenerate them by spending enough in-game time without dying. You can still take a few risks without hampering your character later on, but you cannot risk it all every time you fight. My POV: This is a sort of middleground between hardcore PD proponents and the mainstream, but leaning towards the PD proponent camp.

Some (I believe many, but I'm not entirely sure of that) proponents of PD view designing a good game with permanent death as a "holistic design". This means that having PD in your game influences the design of every other aspect of the game as well. They believe that adding the PD feature to a mainstream MMO makes a horrible game, as it wasn't designed to have PD in it. A good example of a holistic PD-centric game design theory can be found at http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html(This is a long discussion and heavily opinionated from the proponent camp, but that is to be expected and it is the best source on PD-centric game design that I could find)

Final note: I believe this information above was missing in the article, but I'd like to get an opinion from other, more experienced, editors first before I add it as I'm rather new to editing articles on Wikipedia. --NotAnotherPerson (talk) 15:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

We need to be careful about coming up with our own categories of such things; it's borderline original research, which Wikipedia strives to avoid. We shouldn't be crafting our own terminology, but instead reflecting what the world is using There is the general problem with writing about permadeath, finding reliable sources discussing it is surprisingly hard; the majority is written by random, frequently anonymous people. So I'm hesitant to add something like this. — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• Of course permadeath have types because of existing wide types of game implement this mode, only that to this question--Darek555 (talk) 13:16, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Not only RPGs?

I first heard of Permanent Death from the Far Cry 2 playing of it here: http://drgamelove.blogspot.com/2009/06/permanent-death-episode-1-inasupicious.html . But I have also tried doing this myself while growing up with many games other than RPGs. --phocks (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Didn't Creatures have a permadeath-like feature with the starting eggs on a floppy disk? Medinoc (talk) 11:48, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Yoshi's Story

In Yoshi's Story, the amount of Yoshis available corresponds to the player's number of chances to succeed at any course in Trial Mode, or the 6-course challenge of Story Mode. As such, they practically resemble extra lives; and as in most games with this concept, a Game Over will usually result in a penalty, typically seen as lost progress. Also, the game doesn't really illustrate the death of any Yoshis; and lost Yoshi's can be retrieved in Story Mode, with the help from white Shy Guys. So in conclusion, I have decided to remove the note about Yoshi's Story, as it isn't really an appropriate example of this subject.

~ I has unique username (talk) 16:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

MW3: S&D

A noteworthy instance of a popular game type with permanent death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.52.47 (talk) 10:07, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Path of Exile does not belong in this article

Path of Exile does not feature permanent death as defined in the article. Dying in the hardcore mode in Path of Exile does not delete the dead character from the game - instead, it either (1) moves it to softcore, if the death occurred in PvM, or (2) does not affect the character at all if the death occurred in PvP.

This means that characters in Path of Exile's hardcore leagues can effectively die multiple times and still be allowed to stay in the hardcore leagues, which nullifies the already weak argument that the person that persistently re-adds Path of Exile to the list makes.

Please do not re-add Path of Exile to the list of games featuring permanent death unless you have access to sources that would justify your altering the definition of what permanent death is.

Here's the current definition, with relevant parts in bold: "In role-playing video games (RPGs), permanent death (sometimes permadeath or PD) is a situation in which player characters (PCs) die permanently and are removed from the game. Less-common terms with the same meaning are persona death and player death. This is in contrast to games in which characters who are killed (or incapacitated) can be restored to life (or full health), often at some minor cost to the character."

Being moved from hardcore to softcore (in case of death occurring in PvM) is what the above describes as "some minor cost to the character." Note that if a hardcore character in Path of Exile dies in PvP, it can be resurrected without any penalties whatsoever.

Until a change to the definition is made, Path of Exile in its current form does not belong in the article. PathOfExile (talk) 18:43, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• In Path of Exile is PermaDeath in Hardcore league, character died in this league is deleted from it for ever End of Theme. But in suggestion that player can play it in standard leagues where died characters are transfered is not right, because player who wants play it in hardcore have no chance to do this, many players just deleting such characters as usless. Standard and Hardcore leagues are separated and there is no possibility to play with characters from standard in hardcore leagues. Simply word, in Hardcore league in Path of Exile is hardcore mode of game, because permadeath is mode of game not a type of game, implemented in wide types of game.--Darek555 (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile does belong in this article

The character is punished by being dropped from the league. This includes losing access to all his wealth that he stashed, losing the ability to play with friends who are actively participating in a hardcore league, not being able to enjoy the special mod system of the hardcore league and many other things. Saying that this is equal to a character simply being resurrected is completely delusional.

PvP works different as well. The character can die in PvP, but only in a special environment that removes the character from the league for a short duration of time (Arena). If a character loses a duel in open world he will not die, but lose the duel with 1 (one) remaining life point. Meaning: he didnt die.

All of this proves pretty well the the game provides a hardcore environment, simply not in a classic way. That doesn't make it any less punishing though. The idea of a hardcore environment is to penalize the player for losing his one and only life. Path of Exile does that in a more modern way. Nonetheless, it punishes the player severely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.130.218 (talk • contribs) 19:31, August 3, 2014

In hardcore leagues and many other exists in this game like now Talisman League , when you die you lose every think, this is clear and indisputable, that is one of main rules of this worlds, additionally this game is one of very few where is no pay-to-win option, making it more harder.

about pvp instances in hardcore leagues, that is no countable localisations to main localisations because they are separated and in this localisations player receive nothing, simple in PvP localisations in short time you can test your character only, you don't receive experience, don't win anything, you receive nothing, you never end game, you can only test your character with other player, and you don't die, like in town where you can't die too. Many players even don't enter to this mode because they known game well, and don't need test characters.--Darek555 (talk) 11:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Permanent death is defined in the article very clearly as a mechanic that permanently deletes your dead characters from the game, not simply moves them from one league to another. Therefore, Path of Exile simply doesn't have permanent death as defined in the article, and as such does not belong in it.

I respect your opinion that being moved from one league to another constitutes a harsh penalty; however, please appreciate that opinions are not facts and as such should never be a basis for altering Wikipedia articles. Please also appreciate that being moved from one league to another does not constitute character deletion which is a prerequisite for permanent death. PathOfExile (talk) 19:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Moving a character from one league to the another is equal to the punishment characters receive in Diablo 3 and plenty of other games. You're removed from a league, lose access to all accomplishments and contacts. The fact that youre too stubborn to understand that it's an equal punishment doesn't mean that it isnt. If your problem is with the false definition of the term then I will be pleased to adjust it.

The idea of a hardcore environment is to punish a character for making mistakes, as can be read in the articles introduction. The presence of permanent death increases the penalty for mistakes leading to the death of PC. The treatment it receives in Path of Exile is equal to the treatment it receives in other titles. The most important points are met, which include the character to have one life, lose access to his wealth and all the progress he managed to accomplish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.130.218 (talk) 20:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I respect your opinions, but as I already said: Wikipedia relies on factual data. PathOfExile (talk) 20:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

And I dont respect your opinions because they are biased to no end. The definition of a hardcore environment, based on the source that this very page provides, is that the character resembles a real human being. Therefore, the only criterion that has to be met is that the character doesn't have more than one life. Unforunately for you it's met. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.130.218 (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

You have demonstrated your lack of respect for Wikipedia and its policy of relying on facts already, no need to spell it out so blatantly. I will be contacting an administrator regarding your vandalism as it's clear to me at this point that you're not planning to stop. PathOfExile (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Go ahead. Maybe you should check out the source for the terms definition yourself to actually get an understanding of what it is supposed to mean. The most amusing part is that the actual quote is provided at the bottom of the article. Never-to-return death is called permanent death or PD. A dead character will never return to a hardcore league after losing his one and only life. Therefore, the essence of the statement is met. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.130.218 (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Additionally: the opening statement is based on a quote, made by a game developer. This statement has no academic backround. It's a subjective definition of a term, no larger group of people agreed on. We can take this is a basis to define the term, but the quote simply states that a character permanently died as soon as the opportunity to return is denied. Path of Exile meets this criterion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.130.218 (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Characters in Path of Exile in hardcore servers are permanent removed from it with all items, and there is no possibility to return them, End of Theme.--Darek555 (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Taryn's Shiver

>muh semantics >muh theorycrafting >you're autistic >le mastur troll Who cares if taryn's shitter crits 100.3267785% of the time across 5.64 targets? Why do people think good build=more damage! What's gonna happen when you crit for 923998 damage and have only 75% cold resist and 2500 life and die instantly? "I don't care about dying because I play softcore", how does it feel to have an empty XP bar all the time? That will sure get you far in this game. This whole thing ties into how people will fight eachother to no end about "muh theorycrafting" instead of actually making the build and either proving the people wrong who said it was bad, or seeing that sometimes things that work on paper don't always work in practice. You're planning out builds for a ONE MONTH LEAGUE. You act like all these uniques you talk about just drop off hillock at two a pop. Yes I'm mad, make this into a pasta if you want, if only to tell people to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME, instead of shitposting about "muh theorycrafting" on an anonymous anime image board founded by a 15 year old with his mom's credit card.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skip8619 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

RuneScape

I found this article from Joystiq which says that RuneScape may add permanent death. The problem is that WP:VG/RS calls Joystiq a "situational source". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:56, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Cleanup, especially the unreferenced example farm

I tweaked the cleanup templates and started on a bit of cleanup. I removed one particularly long, unreferenced paragraph about what looks like a non-notable game series added by an editor with a possible conflict of interest. I also added a few references for statements that were trivially easily to validate. The article could be expanded somewhat through these citations, as they discuss the topic. As a result, I removed the {{one source}} cleanup template. I made a few trivial additions and copy edits, but nothing major yet. The first half the article is fairly well-written, well-referenced, and describes the topic well. It could still use a few additional sources, but that's not a big issue. Then the article degenerates into a unreferenced example farm that probably needs to go. If I can stand it, I'll go through the list and try to find sources for the examples. This is mind-numbing drudgery, but I've done it for a few other lists and have become fairly adept. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

(Linked from WT:WPVG) Oh geez, the example farm! This needs some very serious trimming and conversion into prose style. Only examples notable for something should be included, preferably with multiple sources. Stating which games have, don't have, or had permadeath is WP:TRIVIA and not suited for an encyclopaedia. At best, we can give a few wider known games as examples without clarifying why they are notable for the topic itself. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus and lack of any opposition. There appears to be a clear argument of commonname. Move will take place pending a G6 delete. (non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 04:42, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

---

Permanent death → Permadeath – WP:COMMONNAME, more commonly known as Permadeath. Anarchyte (work | talk) 02:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

This is somewhat difficult to prove through a Google test, but lucky for us, this article has a lot of sources. Of the sources I can easily check, only four use the term "permanent death". At least 30 others refer to the concept as "permadeath". I don't think this is a controversial move :) support. ~Mable (chat) 10:19, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• • Support Every links lead to game's permadeath ? Are you sure ?
    Lets check !
    On 30 sub-site for search Permanent death in google , there is only 1 link point to game's permadeath on 40 there is 0 !
    All links points only to game's permadeath for searching permadeath in google !
    Here are links:
    30 subsite for "Permanent death"
    30 subsite for permadeath
    And check in numbers , we can assume, for "permanent death" 40 sub-site have no links point to games, then we have only 400 links. For permadeath google shows 430000, we can assume 50% point to game's permadeath , and we got result 200.000 to 400 for permadeath
    what this result mean ?
    That today word permadeath is most known in game industry.--Darek555 (talk) 11:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I'm alright with either, but "permadeath" seems to the common name. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
• Wikipedia like other encyclopedias are for translate such terms like common, and especially common term too, permanent death is not unfamiliar and unknown meaning word, it should be translation for permadeath, used in world of game slogan and definitions, like deathmatch, and other modes of games.Permanent death is not encyclopedic word, this word is permadeath.--Darek555 (talk) 12:12, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME as used in reliable sources, which is the primary factor. The term "Permanent death" is used often synonymously, but to a lesser extent. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:35, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Though "Permanent Death" is more encyclopedic, "Permadeath" is the common name. Meatsgains (talk) 22:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support per CN. --MASEM (t) 16:45, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I don't like the idea of changing the name of this article to a neologism from a more encyclopedic title. However, "permadeath" does seem to be the more common name for the subject, and the move request stands on reasonable ground in regard to the applicable policy (i.e. WP:TITLE), hence I can't quite justify an oppose.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 22:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
• SupportIs Permanent death is more encyclopedic word from permadeath ? On what assumptions ? Because looks more polite ? Then why is deathmatch it should be Match of death , singleplayer it should be play with one player, multiplayer, play of many players. Or simple, you afraid to admit wrong word ?--Darek555 (talk) 23:40, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Darek555: Basically it boils down to this: Those without a strong command of English could look up both permanent and death in a dictionary, while "permadeath" wouldn't be present. Many labels such as slang, portmanteau, and neologism could be given to "permadeath". The comparisons above are false equivalencies. Single-player and multi-player have entered common usage, and are two individual bona fide words. "Play with one player" and "play of many players" are ridiculous notions. While "deathmatch" (again two individual words, this time lacking a space) shares a lot of characteristics with "permadeath", "Match of death" isn't used as a synonym, nor necessarily what "deathmatch" is derived from. "Permanent death" is commonly used and "permadeath" is directly derived from it.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 00:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Godsy:Prove are clear that permadeath is now most common known and used term in game industry, but I response, i don't know why I must explain so clear thing, Every special Term are derived from official language, this is clear and obvious.--Darek555 (talk) 13:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• I responded to the inquiries of your !vote in good faith. Again your example is flawed, because it uses "Perma Death", a word root (Latin I believe) followed by a word with a space in between them. That itself isn't clear proof for anything about the suggested title "permadeath". I was able to make sense of the first part of your comment, but I was unable to do the same in regard to the point with the latter part (i.e. "but I response, i don't know why I must explain so clear thing, Every special Term are derived from official language, this is clear and obvious").—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 21:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• Guys, when I first posted on this one, I did so expecting it wouldn't get much more comments as it was such an uncontroversial move anyway. And that's still true. Everyone wants this page moved to the shorter title. Why are you arguing? ~Mable (chat) 21:08, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Maplestrip: Darek555 questioned parts of above statements in their !vote (including but not limited to mine), and I addressed said questions. Debate on an issue is different than an argument (I am neither heated or angry). As I alluded to in my original comment, though I am not opposing at this time, I don't want the page moved. Regards,—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 21:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• • We can't conclusions base on feelings but on facts, not on what I prefer, would like or not !--Darek555 (talk) 00:04, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rules of permadeath

Because many people have problem with definition of permadeath I got the idea to finally make one clear definition. Because there is a some differences in "implementation" of "permadeath" which is reasonable because of existing various types of games like cRPG, FPP shooter and many others.
Because of this I decided divided definition to part of when permadeath is and when not.
Core rule of permadeath, when game must have:

1. Character have only one life, and when dead character and progress of game are lost.

When permadeath is, characteristic:

1. Character or account is lose when character is killed or defeat.
2. Die can be result of process(poison,etc) but death can't. Death is one.
3. Towns and safe localisations can exist.
4. In towns characters can have access to stash where can change, items, flasks, trade etc.
5. Progress can be saved or game can be safe leave.
6. Life can be refillable in progress of game,but not from outside of game.

When permadeath is not, required:

1. When character die, player have some time to resurrect him.
2. Character have rechargeable sub-life, could be used after death.(and sub-lifes can be recharged in some ways).
3. Character when dead can start from some progress of game even if game is no-save, session game like rogulike game.
4. When in towns and other safe localisations character receive any experience and any advantages affecting on progress, in any form

If you planing respond to this thread please consider carefully your answer in accordance of professional knowledge, to respect this place as place and source of scientific knowledge.--Darek555 (talk) 11:03, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

This looks like original research to me. We already have sourced definitions in the article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• I see you don't understand clear this issue. There should be clear definition not text in article which can be interpreted in many ways. I reaped clearly, text can be interpreted, this is not definition, this is Wikipedia not loose talk, simple ?.--Darek555 (talk) 11:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile have undeniably permadeath mode in Hardcore leagues

One of people consequently deleting part of section about Path of Exile as multi player permadeath game , is there possibility to report him ?--Darek555 (talk) 20:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darek555:You can report problematic users at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. Cheers and happy editing, we're glad to have you here. 118.189.118.3 (talk) 20:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm looking at the two sources and neither of them says that the game has permadeath. [1] says "Typically, “hardcore mode” in action RPGs involves permadeath. A character killed in this mode cannot be accessed any more. In Path of Exile, slain hardcore characters revert to the parent non-hardcore league." It does not say there is permadeath, it points out (as far as I understand) that characters are removed from hardcore-specific world. [2] says "This event is not a hardcore event. In previous testing, we've determined that non-hardcore cut-throat is preferable. ... While permadeath is cool, it prevents a lot of the recovery aspect of cut-throat." This also does not say there is permadeath, in fact, it says the opposite. This appears to be what the original removal cited, and I would agree. The WP:BURDEN of proof is with restoring this contents. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:02, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• In hardcore leagues character killed in this leagues are removed from it for ever and player must start with new character if he want play, that is permadeath undisputed. So what that the killed character is moved to parent league not permadeath , so what ? You can't play it in hardcore server there is no way ! Standard servers are not connected with hardcore servers you have no possibility to play in Hardcore server, you can play only in standard but this is another game, shortly character killed in hardcore leagues are moved to another game in hardcore league you cannot play any more, because this is other game. another word I give you one thousand dollars if you restore my character to hardcore league , can you ? Because if you can't then it is PERMADEATH end of question.--Darek555 (talk) 21:24, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Please provide a source that explicitly says this hardcore to standard server transition is called "permadeath". Not your interpretation (no matter how much you believe it true), but a reliable source. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:34, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Permanent death is a "gameplay mechanic in which player characters that die are permanently dead and removed from the game and may no longer be used to play." This is what our article says, based on reliable sources. In PoE, this simply doesn't happen. When your so-called hardcore character dies, you click the 'resurrect in town' button and you can still play it. It can be used to play. It is not removed from the game. It does not die permanently. It is not rocket science. 41.169.20.244 (talk) 21:35, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
    • You have problem with reading ? Then i repeat, I give you one thousand dollar if you can : "click the 'resurrect in town' button and you can still play it. It can be used to play. It is not removed from the game. It does not die permanently. It is not rocket science, -and I will be able to play in Hardcore League, will have access to my stash and every thing what I lost with this death" -can you do that ? :) --Darek555 (talk) 21:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Wikipedia is based on reliable sources (WP:V), not editor's interpretations. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
        • Right ! Then what you are doing ? Then maybe We should do new Term in wikipedia for Permadeath in other games and this section will lasts only for Roguelike permadeath if you have some problem, if you don't want accept modes of permadeath in other games because it was invented only in Roguelike.--Darek555 (talk) 22:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I manually archived a few really old threads (2008–2014) that were revived by Darek555 to post this same message. It's too confusing to have so many threads open at the same time about Path of Exile. I think consensus is pretty clearly against Darek here. But I don't think it really matters all that much anyway, as we're likely to remove the gigantic example farm during cleanup. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• NinjaRobotPirate What you mean , that I'm only writing about permadeath from 2008, My account was registered in December 2015. Are you lying should I report you ?--Darek555 (talk) 11:36, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I have simple a serious suggestion to you prove me that you are a man and and kill a character in Hardcore League and resurrect him back in Hardcore League, prove my that ! If you are man and not a group of philosophers pests, disputing for ever. If you prove that I will never try add this game as game with permadeath. Simlpe deal !--Darek555 (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• Provide a reliable source for your claims. It does not matter what you or I or anyone else thinks or believes. Wikipedia uses reliable sources and no interpretation -- WP:V and WP:OR, the core policies. We will not be breaking them because you have a different opinion. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 13:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• Right it does no matter what you think, saint word, don't cite third person talking, just prove, simple, above you can do this first, don't talk !--Darek555 (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• Truth is completely irrelevant. ~Mable (chat) 14:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • There's been a complaint filed at WP:ANEW over Darek555's edit warring. Darek, I suggest you stop trying to include this contentious, poorly-sourced entry to what's already an example farm. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

With the examplefarm of games being removed entirely, this discussion has become moot. Unless you can find a source stating that Path of Exile's implementation of permadeath is highly influential and has changed the way we understand the word, there is no reason to mention the game in the article ;) I'm glad we can now bring this issue to bed. ~Mable (chat) 09:06, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile has permadeath

There is a feature in Path of Exile called, race leagues and one of the races within this league is called, Descent Champions. If your character dies in this race, your character cannot continue on no matter what, it is permanently dead. Furthermore, the game's own page clearly states the game has permadeath here. Specifically it states, "Leagues are able to apply a different set of game rules to their players. For example, increased monster difficulty, world PvP, permadeath or various "Ironman" rules".

Now that the point about hardcore league having permadeath is rendered moot by the fact the race leagues and game's site demonstrate permadeath, the hardcore league itself is also clearly an example of permadeath in gameplay.

When a new character is created in PoE, they must first select between one of several leagues. Players are bound to the league they created their character in. Leagues are separated by physical servers. As PoE is an always online game, a player cannot cheat progression through saves or server transfers. Progress is tracked by the server and leagues are further separated by a ladder leaderboard system where player's league progress is tracked from level 1-100 and ranked against other players. A player keeps a stash of items in the league they're in. When a player dies in a hardcore league, their character is deleted from the hardcore server. They can no longer progress on the ladder leaderboard. They lose all the items and progress on their character. After they've died, a copy of their character is made in a default league. Players in the default league can not interact with players in the hardcore league. Their stash, progress and ladder rankings are all kept separate and the player is no longer subjected to hardcore rules. Being able to continue playing the game in another league is intended as a feature to encourage new players to try out playing with hardcore permadeath rules and when they die, they can start over with a new character and try again or decide to abandon hardcore and continue playing in a non hardcore league. Arguing against hardcore as being permadeath is semantics and nothing more.

Lastly, the person arguing against PoE having permadeath is a nutjob whose life revolves around harassing players of the Path of Exile game community. They routinely spam game discussions with a message and a link to the permadeath wikipedia entry, taunting members of the game's community to get into an edit war with him. I have no desire to contribute to editing this article but I would like anyone who bothers to look behind the discussion of this topic to see one of the contributing editors is a total nutjob.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

What kind of change do you suggest to the article? Wikipedia is not intended for venting, nor is it the place to share original research. Path of Exile isn't even mentioned in the article. ~Mable (chat) 08:52, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile is that article, it's literally the game's own website and it's explaining the very rules of the game being described. Are you completely retarded? Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

You don't have to be rude. Like, seriously, this is a clear personal attack and insult. I'm just asking in what way you intend Path of Exile to be mentioned in this article. The purpose of the article on permadeath is to describe the concept of permadeath, after all. I don't really care which games do and don't have permadeath as a mechanic. ~Mable (chat) 09:33, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not being rude. Your blatant disregard and failure to read what has already been posted honestly makes me think you're completely retarded. Furthermore, the editors of this article see it fit to edit out a game on basis of it not qualifying for permadeath, while not having actual knowledge of the game's basic features. If you don't even know how the game works, you're not qualified to comment on its features.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 09:43, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

• Wrong Descent Champions doesn't delete your character from the game. It moves it to the void league. This happens to all participants when the race ends, including the ones that didn't die. Thus, equating being moved to the void league with death is fallacious as dying is not a prerequisite for that; rather, creating a character in a race is. Whether you live or die, by the end of the race you will have been moved to the void league, no exceptions. These characters don't die as much as they were never alive to begin with; they were never part of the core game and their fate was sealed upon creation. You can't call something permanent death if that something doesn't require your dying to occur.

tl;dr: What you're saying is a) original research, as pointed out by one of our colleagues above, and b) patently nonsensical. 24.92.131.182 (talk) 03:56, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

A killed character moved to Void league can not be played thus they fit both definitions of permadeath, "may no longer be used to play" and, "Games without permanent death may allow characters who are killed to be resurrected to a playable state", as cited by the Permadeath wikipedia entry. Alive characters moved to the Void league were never killed. Apples to oranges.

To really drive this point home, both Diablo II and Diablo III do not delete a hardcore character on death. When a hardcore character dies, they're still visible in the character selection screen but can not be played, just like the Void league in Path of Exile. If deletion is what constitutes permadeath, then Diablo II and DIablo III should be removed from examples.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

A killed character moved to the Void League is subject to the same rules as a non-killed character moved to the Void League. The difference between the two lasts only for the duration of the race in which the former died. You are clutching at straws here, trying to prove something that Path of Exile's developers explicitly state on their website isn't correct. Path of Exile has no permadeath, period, and the gamepedia article, which (let's face it) you probably wrote, is not a source we could accept anyway. 95.57.188.117 (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Should I be pointing at WP:NOTFORUM or should someone move this discussion to Talk:Path of Exile? I'm not sure what the purpose of it is here. ~Mable (chat) 20:28, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

The Permadeath's talk history shows Path of Exile has been erroneously removed from the article based on a lack of factual information as I have clearly proven. I'm providing correct, factual and accurately cited information. The Permadeath entry needs to be rewritten in the future and having accurate information in the talk page as reference can be helpful.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, since that discussion, the entire example grouping has been removed. Path of Exile isn't more notable as an example than the countless of other games that happen to include permadeath. This isn't a "list of games that have permadeath", after all. ~Mable (chat) 20:43, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile is more notable because it's one of the most successful modern games with permadeath in existence with over 13 million players while most rigidly fitting the defintion of permadeath. Descent Champions includes both permadeath as well it's entirely self found solo play without the ability to go to town to stash or buy supplies. The fact Path of Exile was removed based on incorrect information doesn't lend credence to it being a less notable example.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 20:51, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Let me put it this way: did Path of Exile's implementation of permadeath influence permadeath itself? Is knowing of Path of Exile needed to have a full understanding of what permadeath is and what it has become? Otherwise, is there some other way in which you can add Path of Exile to this article without it simply being an example? Honestly, feel free to include it in some way, but remember that the purpose of the article is to help readers understand the concept of permadeath, not just to let them know which games use it. ~Mable (chat) 21:02, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Could you tell me why Terraria, Minecraft, Diablo 3 and Sacred should be included? Could you tell me why there was a need to remove Path of Exile in the first place, if not for a factually inaccurate reason? It seems the original reason to include it was good enough, why not now, if not for an incorrect reason?

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea why exactly there was such an argument about whether or not to keep Path of Exile in. I'm sure that, in a theoretical list of games with permadeath, it should be in there. I don't really know.

The reason why those games are in the article now is mainly because the page still hasn't been cleaned up. As I said in the section above, I literally just removed all excessive examples and kept the prose. Please, the article needs a lot of improvement. The line in which those examples are given is about how permadeath is handled in multiplayer games. If you think this point can be made better with different examples and with different (more focused) sources: go ahead! ~Mable (chat) 21:31, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Ugh. We've got a pretty strong consensus against including Path of Exile – or, at least, poorly sourced additions. The last thing we need is for more poorly sourced examples to be re-added to the article. If we're going to add any more specific games, they would certainly require strong sourcing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that NinjaRobotPirate has defaced the article again this time by editing out my well sourced edit with the comment, "It's a wiki written by gamers". The irony of this statement while being on a wikpedia site itself is dumbfounding. The Path of Exile wiki is cited on the game's own page as a reliable source of information. If you disagree with the accuracy of the information presented by the editors, feel free to do so on the Path of Exile wikipedia. This isn't the place for it.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

No, your edit is not well-sourced. A wiki by gamers is not a reliable source. Per guidelines, it basically has to be a source written by a professional journalist. Your provided source is not that. And, yes, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. The game website is not good enough, either. For one thing, it is not independent, and for another it self-published. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:08, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

The sourced subject matter doesn't even need to be sourced, it was included to be informative on the game's various modes. I'm busy now but I'll clarify my edit in the future.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 23:14, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it does need to be sourced. If you can't provide a reliable source, it should be removed. Wikipedia is not based on original research. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:18, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

The information I sourced was only to make it easy for anyone to see how the leagues function, it's not a point of contention. Regardless, I have additional sources here, here and here. This information was written by Chris Wilson, the developer of Path of Exile.

To summarize: Normal hardcore rules do not apply. Your character and items are permanently deleted on death.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 06:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Here's a verbatim quotation from one of your sources (which are forum posts, but let's pretend they're not for a moment); I believe it to be representative of all three of them: "Characters and their items are permanently destroyed once a Descent event ends, regardless of whether they survived or died." This means all Descent-event-only characters, including living Descent-event-only characters, are permanently moved to the Void league when such events end, even those that didn't actually die. We're clearly not dealing with permanent death here; rather, we're dealing with temporarily accessible event-only characters, a completely different mechanic. If living characters were still accessible after Descent events, we'd be dealing with permadeath all right but they're not. I suppose one could say that there is indeed permanent death there but that it only lasts until an event ends (typically ~60 minutes), and as I'm sure everyone here can appreciate, such a statement would be self-contradictory: something that only lasts for a set amount of time cannot be permanent by definition. As you can see, even if we agreed to allow the use of your exceedingly poor sources, they couldn't be used to support the claim that Path of Exile has permadeath because they say no such thing. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 09:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Are you seriously using game wikis and forum posts as sources? If you can't find any strong video game reliable sources talking about a heavy relationship between Path of Exile and permadeath, the game has no place in the article. What we need for this article is less examples, not more. Each example used must give the reader a better grasp of how permadeath works and how it evolved over time.

You don't do that using forum posts and game wikis.

So I suppose there really is no place for Path of Exile in this article. ~Mable (chat) 09:36, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Permadeath in the Diablo series makes headlines: [3] in Eurogamer, [4] in Popmatters, and [5] in Gamespot. Professional journalists write entire articles solely about Diablo's implementation of permadeath. Do they do the same thing for Path of Exile? Because I don't think so, and nobody has ever produced evidence of this. There are also articles about permadeath in Star Wars Galaxies, such as [6] in Engadget, which cite Diablo II' implementation as an inspiration. We have copious support in reliable sources for Diablo's inclusion. Once professional journalists write about Path of Exile in the same way, we can include it. Until then, there really isn't a place for it here. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:26, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Let me quote the pertinent bits since you conveniently ignored them, During the event, if you die, you can start a new character. This action describes how dead characters are treated. They are dead permanently. And. "Characters and their items are permanently destroyed . Sources from descent champions information and descent races.

Yes, these are forum posts, written by literally the developer of the game himself, 'straight from the horse's mouth. Again, the official community resource linked directly on the Path of Exile homepage is not listed as an unreliable source. It is your own personal interpretation as such and even if you don't take that as credible, the developer himself mirrors these statements.

Your personal opinion on the event does not preclude Path of Exile from being a clear example here of permadeath. Permadeath isn't a popularity contest, either. Not making mainstream media headlines doesn't preclude Path of Exile from having permadeath. The question wasn't , "if Path of exile has popular permadeath" it is _if_ it had permadeath. Furthermore, Descent, which you yourself agreed is an example of permadeath, has been featured on PC Gamer, a well known credible game media outlet here,

Your assertion that the duration of these events undermines their credibility as an example of permadeath is completely fallacious. These events were specifically created at the overwhelming request of the playerbase which you again can find here.

Path of Exile is the most shining example of permadeath in modern games because it includes so many different ways for it to occur from inciting arguments from the hardcore playerbase by the hardcore -> softcore transition in hardcore leagues upon death to creating a whole slew of race events with their own unique rules that closely resemble rogues with no town, no stash, no grouping and permadeath.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

It is reliable secondary sources that determine if an example is important. If and when they cover the game as a notable example, then we will include it. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:54, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Information that comes directly from the creator is considered a primary source. It doesn't add to notability. It's probably enough to add the factoid that the game has a permadeath feature in the Path of Exile article, but it wouldn't have any relevance here. ~Mable (chat) 21:04, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

This may be slightly interpretive but given the above and this quote from PC gamer, "Descent to be more like a traditional single-player RPG: explore a new world and experiment with new builds to survive the harrowing landscape". This to me implies the permadeath nature of the game mode. When taken with the additional sources from the developer, it should then be clear that Path of Exile has permadeath. PC gamer is listed as a reliable source

Here is also a press release which mirrors the forum posts written by the developer, from a credible source.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 21:06, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Your proposition that we can label as "permadeath" something that doesn't require you to die (getting your event-only character moved to the Void league) is ludicrous. There's a reason why there are no articles on permadeath in PoE to be found; namely, PoE has no permadeath. Even the official website of the game explicitly states that: "In Path of Exile, slain hardcore characters revert to the parent non-hardcore league." Quit flogging that WP:DEADHORSE already. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 21:45, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Unless the source actually says or directly paraphrases "Path of Exile has permadeath", it is original research. Primary sources (PR, forum, developer) cannot be used for this. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:49, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Being moved to the void league happens to all characters after the event has ended. That doesn't change the fact that dead characters are permanently dead while the event is ongoing. As already quoted and linked from a credible source, if you die, you can start a new character. This action describes what a player can do when they die. And, characters and items are permanently destroyed this action describes what happens to dead characters.

Your statement about hardcore -> non-hardcore is not applicable to Descent. either. Read the cited articles before posting. It clearly says, Be aware that Descent: Champions characters are not moved back to the regular leagues here which again is also cited on a credible source, gamasutra in the official press release.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, "while the event is ongoing." That's currently anywhere from 30 (vanilla Descent) to 60 (Endless Ledge) minutes. Something that lasts for only an hour is not permanent, wouldn't you agree? You're bending over backwards trying to prove the unprovable here, all the while refusing to acknowledge the simple fact your proof would have no value even if you were to provide it because we don't dabble in original research here on Wikipedia. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 22:04, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

The events having a duration isn't listed anywhere as being a qualifying factor for permadeath (this also means it can't be used to disqualify it). I, as a human being, have a duration. Does that mean my death can't be permanent? Furthermore it has already been cited that it was at the feedback of the playerbase that these events were created. It is you who are bending over backwards to disprove these statements, with absolutely zero credible information to back it up.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 22:06, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

What information that is give suggests that whatever character and equipment you get are separate from the main character you have in the game, and disappears once the event is over, even if the character survives all the challenges of the events. This doesn't seem like permadeath in the way that most other games implement it, simply a separate game player to prevent inbalancing the main game. --MASEM (t) 22:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Exactly right, and it also bears noting here that that which is patently obvious doesn't need to be explicitly stated. "Permanent" is a common word in the English language that is synonymous with "lasting indefinitely." Something that only lasts for a set period of time is not permanent; to claim otherwise is silly at best and disingenuous at worst. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 22:20, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

@Icamehere, You do realize that the way Path of Exile seems to implement this mechanic is complicated, and would probably only confuse readers about what permadeath actually is? As someone who hasn't read the links you've posted, I honestly still don't get it myself. I'm mostly just reading out-of-context words like "vanilla descent" and "void league". How would describing Path of Exile help readers understand the concept of permadeath better than games like Diablo, which seem to be much more straightforward with the mechanic? ~Mable (chat) 22:15, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

"What information that is give suggests that whatever character and equipment you get are separate from the main character you have in the game, and disappears once the event is over, even if the character survives all the challenges of the events."

It also describes the action of dead characters, yet again, here, "if you die, you can start a new character". Clearly if death wasn't permanent, there would be no point in them stating you can create a new character when you die.

"How would describing Path of Exile help readers understand the concept of permadeath better"

The confusion Path of Exile creates is probably the perfect reason why it should be included because it plays on the permadeath theme in so many ways. Video games aren't like real life. Why can't a character be dead and alive at the same time? Video game worlds are composed of different rules than the real world. Games like Path of Exile have multiple servers with different rulesets where a player can be permanently dead in one and alive and well in the other. Is this really the same character if it can be described as both dead and alive at the same time?

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 22:25, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Confusion? What confusion? You're the only confused person here, everyone else seems to understand everything just fine: PoE has no permadeath, period. It has temporary event-only characters, yes; it has a system that moves dead hardcore characters to softcore, yes, but that's it. No permadeath. Why don't you find a better use of your time than arguing that the Moon is made of green cheese? It's clearly not and nothing you say can change it; you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own. If PoE's developers ever decide to implement permadeath, feel free to come back - with reputable sources to support your claims - and argue; until then, it's completely pointless to even discuss this matter. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Path of Exile has permadeath. You said, "No permadeath". Descent Champions and Endless Ledge are both Permadeath race events created specifically at the overwhelming request of the fanabase. You haven't refuted any of the factual points contained within my correctly cited sources.

The only question is why you are all wasting everyone's time? You can't refute the points being made. You can only insert your own non sourced opinion based information on the factual properly cited information being presented to you.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

″Something that only lasts for a set period of time is not permanent; to claim otherwise is silly at best and disingenuous at worst″

So if something can't last forever, it can't be permanently dead? What about living things? They don't last forever but as far as we know can die forever.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Even if the permadeath approach used by PoE is similar to other games, the problem is that we don't have any additional sources beyond first-party ones that talk about PoE's approach of permadeath as being unique or a representative example, as compared to what we can say about a game like Diablo. There are lots of other games that have a similar approach to permadeath in online multiplayer modes, but we can't list every single example, only the ones highlighted by sources. --MASEM (t) 00:10, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Permadeath that lasts only for the duration of an event is an oxymoron. I'm really trying to assume good faith here, but I just can't help but wonder if User:Icameheretolaughatyou isn't being obtuse on purpose. Surely, anyone in their position who's not a troll would have acknowledged the flaw in their argument by now as well as understood that the lack of sources means any further discussion is bound to prove fruitless. I've lost count of how many times that user has had this pointed out to them but refused to hear it. 46.105.88.106 (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

The only thing I'll admit is the verbage used in the credible sources could be confusing to somebody who doesn't play Path of Exile, which is specifically why I thought the Gamepedia sources would make good supplementary sources to the credible ones. If that doesn't jive well, we're done here.

Icameheretolaughatyou (talk) 07:06, 21 February 2016 (UTC)