Talk:Permanent time observation in the United States

A previous attempt at permanent DST?

I once came across some interesting article about how some US state in the …1940s??? tried year-round DST, but it was voted out after less than 6mos (being so dark in the winter mornings I guess). I can't re-find any reference to that though. If anybody does, it definitely merits an entry on this page. not-just-yeti (talk) 01:50, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes everywhere had year-round DST during WWII [1]. Reywas92^Talk 04:44, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

An over-looked problem with year-round DST

Our many existing “atomic” clocks have only two options: DST “On” and DST “Off”. There is no “year-round DST” option. Consequently they’ll either be wrong all of the time, or wrong when the rest of the nation goes off DST for the Winter months. (This entry is meant for the "Talk" page.)

50.45.148.23 (talk) 03:40, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Presumably by ""atomic" clocks" you're referring to, for example, clocks that synchronize with, for example, radio signals from various national atomic clocks. This clock lets you set the time zone to EST, CST, MST, or PST, so, for US users not in the Eastern time zone, they could work around the problem by setting the time zone to the time zone to the east of them and turn DST off. Unfortunately, that wouldn't, for example, help people in Florida or New England if they go to all-year DST.

It might, however, get more people to use their mobile phones as clocks; assuming the phone's operating system uses the tz database (both Android and iOS do) and somebody sends out tzdb updates (Apple, at least, does, and I think either Google, carriers, or vendors do for Android phones), the problem should get fixed with a tzdb update, as long as the tzdb maintainers get enough warning to put out a new release in time for the vendors to distribute it. Guy Harris (talk) 06:55, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

(Or use their smart watches, if they have one that uses the tzdb, as the Apple Watch presumably does, given that it runs a Darwin (operating system)-based OS, and either has Wi-Fi or cellular Internet access and can get tzdb updates direcly, or can get them from a paired device with Internet access.) Guy Harris (talk) 07:06, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you Guy Harris --but of course: simply change the time zone an hour East, then turn DST "off". (Will let the EST folks fend for themselves, but I've seen clock options as so many hours short of GMT.)

--Craig 50.45.148.23 (talk) 03:18, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me?

This article, besides being very awkwardly written, seems to have huge POV issues, and a serious lack of inline citations. This phrase:

The disadvantage of Permanent Standard Time is that it gets too bright in the early summer mornings and too dark in the late afternoon which can increase the chance of evening accidents in the winter by 10%, and more artificial light, Another disadvantage of Permanent standard time is that in the summer it will bring the sunrise at around 4 am, and will set at around 7 PM, few people in the United States are awake at 4 am and don't expect that early of sunrise, a lot of people are awake in the afternoon and many people rather prefer a sunrise at 5 am and sunset at 8 pm.

... besides being an extreme run-on, makes no sense. How does getting "too bright in the early summer mornings" "increase the chance of evening accidents in the winter...."? What is meant by "too bright"? How the clocks are set has no impact on the sun's brightness.

If standard time increases accidents in the winter evening, why wouldn't savings time increase accidents on winter mornings? No citation is given.

Where is the citation for "few people in the United States are awake at 4 AM"?

The United States has five time zones; it is not "4 AM" in all of them at the same time.

There are many other issues. This article needs to be completely rewritten -- with citations -- or else deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 00:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

The language cited above was added anonymously within the last two weeks. I removed it. -- Spiffy sperry (talk) 14:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. having given this some more thought, I don't really see the need for this article at all. There is already an extensive article about Daylight saving time, with a lengthy section about proposals for permanent Daylight time. It seems like the content of this article could be another subsection of that article, making the DST article more comprehensive. Also:

• It seems that there should be a mention of the fact that DST puts a time zone significantly out-of-sync with Solar Noon, which has its own repercussions.
• It is not clear why DST would be allegedly saving pedestrian lives or reducing accidents. In the winter months, wouldn't having more daylight during the afternoon rush hour be offset by having less daylight during the morning rush hour? The link to the Rutgers study cited goes only to a brief abstract -- the study itself is behind a paywall.
• It also seems significant to note that, at least in the US, most children go to school during the winter months, but not during the summer months. Most US primary and middle schools open between 7:30-9:00 AM and let out between 2:00-3:30 PM. Under Standard Time kids get at least some natural light a both ends of the schoolday; under permanent DST they would be going to school in the dark during the winter mornings, which seems at least intuitively to be a more dangerous state of affairs. If there is research either supporting or refuting this, it should be cited.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks for taking out that awkward text.

74.95.43.253 (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

hybrid proposals

should there be a link to, or a section about, proposals such as matching the broadcast television de-facto standard with two time zones two hours apart roughly where the mountain/central line is now? That would put two zones on permanent DST and two on permanent standard time. See https://standardtime.com/index_proposed.gif

A similar proposal that seems to have been discussed in 2013 involved only a one-hour gap between the two zones. 2605:A601:AC0C:EA00:7081:2F3:105F:3B22 (talk) 03:26, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Or, better, see the proposal first and then the illustrative map, so you know what it is that the map is illustrating.

Presumably the bit about "broadcast television de-facto standard" refers to the "9PM, 8PM Central time" TV announcements, for shows, that I remember from my youth, and is given for illustrative purposes; the proposal does not itself mention broadcast TV schedules, as it's a proposal for changes in the law that specifies civil time.

It might be worth mentioning, although, unlike, for example, the Sunshine Protection Act, it's not a proposed Federal law; some, but not all, of the states that would be involved have passed laws, or have had bills proposed, to follow the proposal (the table shows that, for example, Georgia rejected a permanent-standard-time bill and passed a permanent-daylight-saving-time bill), so it's currently just a suggestion, albeit one that has been mentioned in the press (among other proposals in at least some places). Guy Harris (talk) 04:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Dispute: Citations not backing up statement

"It is supported by environmental evidence, owing to evidence that DST observation increases driving, morning heating, and evening air conditioning, which all in turn increase energy consumption and pollution."

The citations do not provide proper evidence for the above statement. 15.248.0.15 (talk) 18:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The citations do support the statement. Additional citations have now been added. WikiWikiHigh (talk) 14:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC)