Talk:Permutation (music)

Too technical

Highly technical explanation: requires cleanup. I will attempt it. Jubilee♫clipman 16:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

How is the article too technical? Hyacinth (talk) 19:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree. It's formatted in a way where it is not very clear what the discussion is. The examples are great though. I think what it needs is a little rewording and more structure to the page. I'll attempt to do some of this this evening. — Devin.chaloux (chat) 22:51, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Retrograde (music) redirects here?

Personally, I think this is not a wise move. Yes, retrograde is a permutation, but it is not solely a 12-tone permutation. Retrograde also applies to tonal literature, especially in fugues. I think it would be wise to split retrograde as a separate article for this reason. There are, of course, several other situations in tonal music, such as the puzzle canons. However, this article I suggest keep its discussion on retrograde as it pertains to serialist music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Devin.chaloux (talk • contribs) 22:49, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, though technically this article is not necessarily restricted to a discussion of either twelve-tone music, nor of "serialist" music—it just gets hijacked early on, and never gets back to other types of musical permutation. That said, I think a case can be made for rescuing the redirect and making it a separate article on musical retrograde, and expanding the present article to correct its too-limited focus. What do other editors think?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

If that's the case, then I will hold off on restructuring this article until we define a focus for this article. — Devin.chaloux (chat) 23:33, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that is a wise choice. Perhaps this article really is meant to be restricted to applications within twelve-tone technique, or more broadly within pitch-class set theory. If so, then perhaps it needs to be renamed to reflect this restriction: Permutation (twelve-tone technique), Permutation (pitch-class set theory), or the like.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

If this article is to be forked, where is the other part - presumably discussing retrograde in tonal music? Or other musics? -- kosboot (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say yes. Either fork it or we expand the idea of permutation to tonal music in addition to serialist music. I'm not sure which option is the better option, but we should make an informed decision sooner than later. — Devin.chaloux (chat) 03:48, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

And not only in tonal non-serial music, of course (retrograde canon has an important place in pre-tonal music, after all). However, one question is left dangling here: are we talking just about the use of retrograde in non-serial music, or about permutation in general? For an example of the latter, consider Henry Cowell's Mosaic String Quartet, or even (an admittedly marginal case) the 17th-century French practice of assembling "suites" of many pieces in the same key, from which the performer is free to select a smaller number and to decide on their order (e.g., Marin Marais's books of viol pieces).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

In concert with WP:MTH, I think some of us are exploring the idea of forking "retrograde" into a separate article. But yes, "permutation" could use some help, too. -- kosboot (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Retrograde in tonal music

Seems to me a forked article should have more about the use of retrograde in tonal music. So here's my example:

• Haydn, Sonata, XVI/26, 2nd movement (Menuet and trio). -- kosboot (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• Machaut, Ma fin est mon commencement
• Bach, Musical Offering, canon 4

I see an issue: there are already articles for crab canon and palindrome (which has a not-very-large section on classical music). So I'm thinking that this article should just describe the technique, and leave it to those articles (stubs as they are) to describe it more in depth when in compositions. -- kosboot (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok! Article forked - but I only did a small part for retrograde in tonal music. -- kosboot (talk) 04:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)