Talk:Pescennius Niger

The black man in the priest of Jupiter's dream

By saying that Niger was of African descent, I think you're misunderstanding the source text. Here's the text again

"It seems that while Severus was in Pannonia the priest of Jupiter in a dream saw a black man force his way into the emperor's camp and come to his death by violence; and by interpreting the name of Niger people recognized that he (P Niger) was the black man in question."

So, he's saying that people recognized he was the "black man" in question because of his name...because he had the name "black". That doesn't refer to his skin color at all.

(Absolute garbage. Cassius Dio Book 75 states quite plainly <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/75*.html> he was of Italian equestrian descent, dark in skin tone perhaps, but not 'black' as in of African descent. The logic isn't terribly difficult. Virgil61 19:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC))

^^^^ Wrong, that is your own belief, which Wikipedia calls 'original research' - the source makes no reference other than that Niger was a 'black man' no where does Dio suggest that he [Niger] was simply a dark Italian.

Even the source doesn't agree with your logic, and let's face it you've never read Cassius Dio and it's doubtful you know much about him except for the one online transcript. He says he was an Italian equestrian--not an African one, not a Gaulish one, not a Greek one--and he was dark. Read it again, see above. Try and read the full text or get the Penguin translation by Ian Kilvert and you'll see Dio makes it very clear when an individual isn't a Roman or Italian by birth.Virgil61 07:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

And as someone below makes the point, by this time citizenship was granted to all sorts of races, and they were all refferred to as "Italian".

You're being dishonest, YOU were the one who made the point below. Wikipedia makes it easy to see who has posted what even when they don't sign their name.

You've clearly read very little about the Roman Empire. All citizens were not referred to as "Italian", especially since it would be Roman Citizenship and a reference to their being Roman that would be important. Find a reference for that if you can. Even in ancient times an "Italian" was someone from the region of Italy and mention would be made if his background were from elsewhere. Virgil61 07:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia makes clear that sources must be the basis of the information contained within it's pages, not the beliefs of individuals. As such until you can find a source which states otherwise the source is clear in it's description. Orasis 20:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Your own source doesn't agree with your sweeping bs. No, I've changed to be clearer already. Thanks for playing and do try and read up on your history from something other than a few web pages. Virgil61 07:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

By this time Rome had many a citizenship, I agree - the book says 'black', and if this man was part of the Roman Empire he would have been considered of Italian origin through his citizenship.

No, you still don't understand Roman history. He would've been considered a Roman not Italian. Roman was the term for citizenship, Italy was a province and region like Gaul but home to Rome as well. Dio doesn't say "Roman equestrian", he says Italian. Virgil61 10:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I see no need to remove the claim that he was black, history through it's surviving sources bend more towards this end then any other. - Wikipedia is a source of information, and not one of fiction - as such it is fiction to completely remove the sentence which says "BLACK MAN". -

Italy is not a 'fiction', nor is the statement he was an Italian equestrian either. Try and keep track of Dio's complete writings. Virgil61 10:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Let the readers through their own research reach their own conclusions. But to remove this historical data is no more than vandalism in my opinion. - It would be one thing if Book 75 said "dark man" or so forth, but it does not it says it clearly in black and white twice "black man".

If Wikipedia is to be a reliable source of information, one must provide sources - and it does seem that CD B75 refers to Pescennius as a black man, does anyone else have a source which can counter the claim? If not we should not create historic stories. - He [Cassius] does not say anything other than he was a black man, no where does he say that he was an italian with a dark olive or tan complexion.

If it is to be reliable you need to use your common sense and know--which you obviously don't--that being an Italian is not to be black as in African, which is your ulterior motive you so coyly shy away from. I'll fix it so it is stated so. Virgil61 07:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

You must provide documentation from another source which supports your argument. Cassius Dio does not use this term with other Italians who possibly had dark skin tone, he also does not say "dark man" he says "Black man."

If you have another source which states that Niger was an Italian of dark skin tone, the so be it - but at the moment from what I can see here it says clearly twice "black man." Americans for instance can be of all colors, so can British or Africans or those of any other nationality.

Please do not remove the fact that Niger was a black man, it is historical fact and shows up in Cassius Dio Book 75.

EXCERPT "It seems that while Severus was p181in Pannonia the priest of Jupiter in a dream saw a black man force his way into the emperor's camp and come to his death by violence; and by interpreting the name of Niger people recognized that he (P Niger) was the black man in question."

So yes please do not remove HISTORICAL information from a Wikipedia HISTORICAL page - especially when sources are there to back up the fact.

Absolute garbage. Cassius Dio Book 75 states quite plainly <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/75*.html> he was of Italian equestrian descent, dark in skin tone perhaps, but not 'black' as in of African descent. The logic isn't terribly difficult. Virgil61 19:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone newly created the Pescennius_Niger page. And filled it woth "Pescennius Nigga". This is dirt I guess? How to remove it? Should this become a blank page, or can we delete the page altogether? roan

Stick a comment in Wikipedia:Votes for deletion -- V 13:52 Nov 18, 2002 (UTC)

No need to now there's now a stub article -- V 18:00 Nov 18, 2002 (UTC)

Ugh. This is a page I've been meaning to write. Ars longa, vita breva as Hippocrates is said to have written. -- llywrch 17:51 Nov 18, 2002 (UTC)

It should have been noted in this page that niger was not only a name but he was also a black man, and that fact is not debated it is recorded from historic texts during the time. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/75*.html - especially that of Cassius Dio *Book 75*

The Historia Augusta claims that he was called Niger because his neck was black but the rest of his skin was white (something like a modern 'redneck' I suppose). Maybe the HA info should be included in the article? Aquinate 21:24 Aug 23, 2007 (CEST) —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:25, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

This whole thing about Pescennius Niger being black is ludicrous see the text in the SHA (6.5-6): 5 Fuit statura prolixa, forma decorus, capillo in verticem ad gratiam reflexo, vocis raucae sed canorae, ita ut in campo loquens per mille passus audiretur, nisi ventus adversaretur, oris verecundi et semper rubudi, cervice adeo nigra, ut, quemadmodum multi dicunt, ab ea Nigri nomen acceperit, 6 cetera corporis parte candidus et magis pinguis, vini avidus, cibi parcus, rei veneriae nisi ad creandos liberos prorsus ignarus. It is clear that he was said to have taken his cognomen because of his black hair, but he was white in the rest of his body ( cetera corporis parte candidus). As for interpretation of the omen, in Dio, it is clearly said that the men, after translating Niger's name into Greek and realizing it meant 'black' in Greek, realized he was the black man refered to in the dream. If Pescennius had been black, why all the wordplay and the interpretation, wouldn't it have been immediately obvious the black man was he? 82.32.203.91 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Historia Augusta is not a reliable source. In any case, there is no reason not to leave open the possibility that Pescennius Niger could have been a black man, as the reference by Dio is not clear. Saying that he was of Italian equestrian descent does not mean that he cannot have black ancestry from the 350 year period of Roman holdings in Africa. --Kurt Leyman (talk) 01:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Usurper?

"History is written by the victors" is a cautionary proverb, not an instructive one. Surely we do not have to call all the losers in Caesarian self-elections Usurpers. Anarchangel (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

If he was a black man in the sense from Africa then he would say Gaetulian Equestrian not Italian Equestrian just like how there are Gallic Equestrians and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cauca50 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Dio, the priest of Jupiter's dream, and blackness again

Again an editor has chosen to interpret Dio's report of a dream: "And this evidently was the meaning of the priest's dream. 2 It seems that while Severus was in Pannonia the priest of Jupiter in a dream saw a black man force his way into the emperor's camp and come to his death by violence; and by interpreting the name of Niger people recognized that he was the black man in question." This neither affirms nor denies anything whatever about Pescennius Niger's skin color. It is a dream interpretation using a play upon words, and reinterpreting it as saying that it describes Pescennius Niger's skin colour is to indulge in original, and far-fetched, research. If you can show a consensus of reliable sources to support whatever argument you want to make, great, it can go in to our article. But until then, it really can't. At this edit I have again removed it. Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

You're being incredibly obtuse, so I'll try to put it in different terms (and then respond to your other gatekeeping thread on Blackness in antiquity). For one, the designation of "ἄνδρα τινὰ μέλανα" or "ἄνθρωποι τὸν μέλανα" as a "play on words" is your own, "original, and far-fetched" research, so kindly avoid flinging rocks from a glass house. One thing to point out off the bat is that Cassius Dio was writing his history in Greek, not Latin, so "μέλας" (melas) and its associated forms would not be a play on the completely different Latin word "niger", which was obviously a somatic term or nickname given the family surname "fuscus" (another somatic term). Just to get into the weeds of ancient Greek linguistics for a moment, Dio's original line from Book 75 goes: "Σεουήρου ὁ ἱερεὺς τοῦ Διὸς ὄναρ εἶδεν ἄνδρα τινὰ μέλανα ἐς τὸ στρατόπεδον αὐτοῦ ἐσβιαζόμενον καὶ ὑπὸ χειρῶν ἀπολλύμενον: τὸ γὰρ ὄνομα τοῦ Νίγρου ἐξελληνίζοντες οἱ ἄνθρωποι τὸν μέλανα" (Cassius Dio Cocceianus, Historiae Romanae; Earnest Cary, Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ed., from perseus.tufts.edu). The exact text of interest is "ἄνδρα τινὰ μέλανα//ἄνθρωποι τὸν μέλανα," specifically, the masculine accusative singular form of "μέλας" (melas, the origin of the English term "melanin"). Now we go to a dictionary, the classic Beekes Etymological Dictionary of Greek if you will, and look up μέλας. I am lucky enough to have a hard copy at home from my school days, but you might be able to find one online. Here's the definition: μέλας [adj.] 'dark-colored, black' (11.)<IE *mel(h₂)-n- 'black'>... as in "μελανό-χροος" (dark/black-skinned). For commentary, the ancient Greek conception of colors was very different than that of today, so although the idea of combining color (black) and hue (dark) in one word might feel foreign to us, it was perfectly normal in the ancient world (read Eleanor Irwin's "Colour Terms in Greek Poetry" for further discussion, specifically around p. 30). Now, after reading the dictionary, it might behoove you to look at comparative examples, particularly in the realm of the Greek historians that might have inspired Cassius Dio's prose. The influence of the 'original' Greek historians on Dio has long been noted, particularly that of Thucydides, but so too does Herodotus's monographic model and rhetorical impressionism pervade throughout his work (Chapter 3 of "Cassius Dio the Historian", within Volume 10 of the pre-eminent "Historiography of Rome and its Empire" goes into this in a fair amount of detail). Anyway, here's a line using the masculine accusative form of μέλας from Herod. Book 2, Sec. 2, Line ~36: "ἄγειν τε δὴ αὐτοὺς δι᾽ ἑλέων μεγίστων, καὶ διεξελθόντας ταῦτα ἀπικέσθαι ἐς πόλιν ἐν τῇ πάντας εἶναι τοῖσι ἄγουσι τὸ μέγαθος ἴσους, χρῶμα δὲ <<μέλανας>>. παρὰ δὲ τὴν πόλιν ῥέειν ποταμὸν μέγαν, ῥέειν δὲ ἀπὸ ἑσπέρης αὐτὸν πρὸς ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα, φαίνεσθαι δὲ ἐν αὐτῷ κροκοδείλους." Translated thusly, "and they led them (so it was said) through very great swamps, and after passing through these they came to a city in which all the men were in size like those who carried them off and in colour of skin black; and by the city ran a great river, which ran from the West towards the sunrising, and in it were seen crocodiles." ("The History of Herodotus," trans. G.C. Macaulay). Similar references using declensions of μέλας are made throughout Books 2, 3, and 7. Looking at your Historia Augusta (written in Latin in case you didn't know), here's the original for P. Niger: "Fuit statura prolixa, forma decorus, capillo in verticem ad gratiam reflexo, vocis canorae, ita ut in campo loquens per mille passus audiretur, nisi ventus adversaretur, oris verecundi et semper rubidi, cervice adeo nigra, ut, quem ad modum multi dicunt, ab ea Nigri nomen acceperit." Translated to, "In stature Niger was tall, in appearance attractive; and his hair grew back in a graceful way toward the crown of his head. His voice was so penetrating that when he spoke in the open he could be heard a thousand paces away, if the wind were not against him. His countenance was dignified and always somewhat ruddy; his neck was so black that many men say that he was called Niger on this account." (Loeb Classical Library). There are two things to say about this, first, "ruddy," is a translation of "rubidi", derived from "rubidus", meaning "red". However, "rubidus" is a specific type of red, which is described in Gellius's "Attic Nights", ""Rubidus" autem est rufus atrior et nigrore multo inustus, "luteus" contra rufus color est dilutior; inde ei nomen quoque esse factum videtur." Translated to, ""Now, rubidus is a darker red and with a larger admixture of black; luteus, on the other hand, is a more diluted red, and from this dilution its name too seems to be derived." (Loeb Classical Library) Cultural context is important here, and this is one of those situations where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing because it leads you to false conclusions. One might just as easily (if not more accurately) conclude that Historia Augusta (despite its glaring defects) is stating that P. Niger has a dark-red-almost-black face in addition to a "very black" neck. Ultimately, the source goes on to state rather dramatically that "cetera corporis parte candidus et magis pinguis, vini avidus, cibi parcus, rei veneriae nisi ad creandos liberos prorsus ignarus." but how we disentangle fact from fiction in this strange description is still an open question. Leaving the linguistics to one side for a moment, your pattern of (dis-)engagement with source material related to Black people and Blackness in antiquity is troubling to me, especially given your obstinate monopolization of these articles that you are clearly still learning about. I am especially worried that your relatively parochial views, formed or malformed by your classics education, are having an undue influence on what people of all background can see and interact with in the history of the ancient Mediterranean. History isn't some rigid set of facts, and even paradigms that we have come to know and love are constantly destroyed and reformed in light of new evidence and greater understanding. I am inclined to more accurately convey the multiplicity of viewpoints and essential uncertainty of traditional material when discussing anachronistic topics such as these, because without that we give our readers a false sense of security in the subject matter and in long-dead classicists. You cannot prove that P. Niger was not dark-skinned, especially not with a pathetic source like Historia Augusta and a stubborn attitude, but you can at least try to be fair and equitable about the very real uncertainty concerning his origins. Fleet Admiral Ali (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:06, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

At this edit I have made appropriate use of Cassius Dio as a primary source. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Pescennius Niger was a Jew

Pescennius was called Niger because in Antioch, Jews were being called Niger. There are historical records that document other Israelites being called Niger as well.

Reference King James Version, Book of Acts 13:1 - “Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, G3526 and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.”

Strong’s Definitions Νίγερ Níger, neeg'-er; of Latin origin; black; Niger, a Christian:—Niger. KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x The KJV translates Strong's G3526 in the following manner: Niger (1x).

During this time, many Israelites were also citizens of Rome. The Apostle Paul is documented in scripture, being a Roman citizen.

Reference King James Version - Book of Acts 22:25-27 25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.

The Apostle Paul also makes it clear that he is an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin.

Reference King James Version- Book of Philippians 3:5 “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;”

King James Version - Romans 11:1

“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”

Common English Bible - Acts 21:39

39 Paul replied, “I’m a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of an important city. Please, let me speak to the people.”

Conclusion: Pescennius Niger was a Jew because only Israelites were being called Niger in Antioch. History proves other Israelites were also being called Niger in Antioch and it’s clear that Niger means Black. Pescennius was an Israelite, a Jew, and yes they are black men, but he may have been a lover of Rome instead of the faith.

Glory to The Highest. 2601:4C0:8001:8750:E8CA:1CAC:7CA6:4128 (talk) 10:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Name

The name Pescennius sounds like something to do with fish, if not fish, does anyone know the meaning? A dark compexion and maybe learned to swim at a very young age and so named Black Fish?! I assume that last sentance is not true though. Middle More Rider (talk) 19:16, 12 May 2022 (UTC)