Talk:Peter Daicos

Untitled

Seems to link from a lot of pages, so there is potential, FWIW. Turnstep 04:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Good catch, I hadn't noticed that. I've moved it to Prod to give the author a chance to fill it in. Gwernol 04:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

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Ethnicity

I have removed the "ethnicity" portion as it has NO SOURCES and is a sensitive subject. Whether he is Greek or ethnic Macedonian will be placed once a reliable source is found, ok? Mactruth (talk) 01:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Lets be constructive and USE SOURCES include them by using the followin: < r e f > s o u r c e < / r e f > but without spaces Mactruth (talk) 02:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You guys think he maybe part Greek part ethnic Macedonian? In Peter,Hill. (1989) The Macedonians in Australia, Hesperian Press, Carlisle, pp.132 it states he is ethnic Macedonian. Mactruth (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"In 2002 he made the AFL Greek Team of the Century". From the Greek Team of the Century article "The criteria was that any Greek blood(sic) whatsoever constituted eligibility for the team." So yes, it seems that he is partly Greek, at least. I suggest the whole ethnicity debate be dropped (elegant wording always helps). 3rdAlcove (talk) 03:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is the conclusion I am coming too, maybe the names/origins of his parents would reveal the answer Mactruth (talk) 04:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that by removing the "Ethnicity Debate" portion from the text you really did not understand the scope of placing it.

I will develop why I wrote that text. 1.- Daicos parents came from Florina, a city in now-a-days Greece, but with a seizable portion of Slavs. 2.-The only certain fact is that they came from Greece, and immigrtaed to Australia with Greek passport. They are billigual in Slavika and Greek and belong to the Greek Orthodox Chruch. This is the reason why the redirections would help the reader to understand better the situation, not just about Peter´s ethnicity but in fact about a problem wider than this. 3.- He always refered himself plainly as a "Macedonian". Not Greek Macedonian, Slav Macedonian, "Filobulgarian" Macedonian, Albanian Macedonian, Vlach Macedonian or whatever admixture this region may have. 4.- He has never refered himself as a person with descent of the Republic of Macedonia (or the Former Yugoslavian ...blablabla ...)just because this state gained independence in the early 90's, plus the city/region where his ancestors were born do not belong to this newly formed state. 5.- The fact of accepting the vice-captaincy of this "Greek Team of the Century" does not imply he is accepting being of "Hellenic" roots, justa that he he has "Greek" descent, because his parents are "Greeks". 6.- If his ancestors were Greeks slavicized or Slavs Hellenized is a fact we will never know. Their familyname was Daicoff (or Daicov) and after the Balkanic Wars apparently was changed to Daicos, but surnames are not a base for establishing ethnicity. Nor is language (or religion) 7.- The Greek State considers "Slavophone Greeks" to be people of ancient "Hellenic" descent who fell under Slavic cultural influence, the same way The Republic of Macedonia considers "Aegean Macedonians" to be Slavs that fell under Greek influence. 8.- I think that the most important thing is that for showing a strong attach to the Macedonia region and not to any state in particular, Peter is seen as a "traitor" for radical nationalist Greek fellows and as a "Hellenizing" apostate for Slavic radicals. Let us leave the paragraph, it harms no one, it honours Peter´s convictions and brings peace to a useless debate. I think this is constructive since what I highlight is the non sense of such discussion. Periptero (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)PeripteroPeriptero (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I show Daicos´ quotes regarding his designation as vice-captain in the Greek Team of the Century.- "Daicos said he was proud to be there "to honour the sacrifices that my parents made". You may check this in the Neos Kosmos Greek Australian newspaper website I have provided in the article.-Periptero (talk) 19:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)PeripteroPeriptero (talk) 19:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

What debate? Things are pretty calm around here, at the moment. Your synthesis, though its intentions are honorable, can't be accepted here. Please, users just have to show good will. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

What you say is probably true, but it looks like original research and/or a biography of living persons violation. BalkanFever 04:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I've removed some of the more ridiculous unsourced crap. I don't see how proudly joining a "Greek Team of the Century" does "not imply any sort of identification with Greece" (emphasis mine), and calling himself Macedonian (in a Greek context) would if anything make Greeks proud. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 04:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Peter Daicos when interviewed on Four Corners (ABC) in 1988 as to his ethnicity stated unequivocally "I speak Macedonian not Greek...I am Macedonian". Daicos states similar sentiments in the opening chapter of his autobiography.

The question that begs to be asked is this, why would Daicos go out of his way to correct any perception that he is anything other than an ethnic Macedonian?

The village his parents hail from Banica (nowdays known in Greek as Vevi) is 100% ethnic-Macedonian in composition. Given that Daicos INSISTS on repeatedly using the Macedonian name of the village and NEVER the Greek name would indicate Peter Daicos still harbours a strong attachment to his slavic roots.

The citizens of Banica (Vevi) have been noted in Greek archival sources as having been a heavily pro-Bulgarian village prior to the 1940's with no pro-Greek sentiment amongst the citizenry whatsoever.

Daicos relatives in the USA having immigrated there prior to the enforced Greek government sponsored changing of surnames, village names etc in the 1920's still use the original surname Daicoff.

A relative of Daicos in Toronto/Canada Jim Daicos has been very heavily involved with Macedonian Human Rights Groups and is open hostile to Greece's lack of human rights for its ethnic Macedonian minority.

Peter Daicos invitation and acceptance of a place in the Greek Team of the Century conjured up for no other reason other than to serve as a propaganda tool has no validity to ethnicity when it is considered that other members of this GTOTC, namely Ang Christou, Daniel Metropoulos and Alex Marcou all along with Daicos have family connections who ere openly hostile to the Greek state in all its manifestations.

Ang Christou's grandfather was a member of Andon Kalchev's Makedonski Komitat in 1943-44 that aimed to liberate Macedonia from Greece and was subsequently executed by Greek nationalists for his involvement.

Daniel Metropoulos ancestral village of Chuka/Kostur, Arhangelos/Kastoria was razed by Greek forces and the entire population fled to the Republic of Macedonia where they live in the capital of Skopje to this day.

Alex Marcou whose great uncle Petre Markov was a leader of a pro-Macedonian paramilitary group in his native village of Neret/Lerin (Polypotomos/Florina) was ambushed and murdered by pro-Greek lackies from the village of Rakovo/Lerin (Krateron/Florina) in the 1940's.

It goes without saying that both Daicos grandfathers suffered for their anti-Greek leanings.

How is Peter Daicos (or any of the others) Greek when the above is considered.

Of the four ethnic-Macedonian origin inductees of the GTOTC, only Christou speaks any Greek (by virtue of his Pontian mother)...the other three do not speak any Greek at akll.

All four (including Christou) speak Macedonian to varying degrees of proficiency.

The Neos Cosmos backed GTOTC is nothing more than a feeble attempt at propaganda and an attempt at obfuscation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooldewd (talk • contribs) 11:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Amazing and strong facts (if true). Just a question: With all these sad events developped above... How is it that Peter Daicos accepted the vice-captaincy of the GREEK team of the century ? It should be and offence for him to be included with Greeks. Even more, how is it that such distiction "honoured" him ?Periptero (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

Periptero (talk has recently violated many Wikipedia rules, vandalizing the website even though it was sourced. One of the sources used was Peter Daicos own book, written by himself yet if looked at the "history" of the page Periptero states it is a POV biased source. It is very interesting that the page was changed to remove any sources that show he is Macedonian in an ethnic sense. Mactruth (talk) 05:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Untrue.- After further researchs made, the source is back.- Just check "history" and you will see. Read the article carefully and you will find that his Macedonian "ethnic sense" is not questioned, as his Greek affiliation via the GREEK Afl team shouldn' t be as well. Never vandalized.(Periptero (talk) 12:08, 4 December 2009 (UTC))

I didnt know playing on a team meant you were that ethnicity, and you cant take how one identities from that (considering Russell Morris "great great great great grandfather" was Greek) . Like I stated, Daicos wrote in his own words he is not Greek, and it will be displayed on wikipedia (you really gotta move on) Mactruth (talk) 03:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

You use POV words by stating "although he says he is Macedonian, he joined the Greek sports team hence he is Greek" but I doubt a sports team means your that ethnicity, considering he may have joined it simply bcuz his roots stem from Greece (Aegean Macedonian)Mactruth (talk) 03:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

In his autobiography Peter stated:

"I speak Macedonian at home, not Greek"

and

"I am of Macedonian background"

Maybe you should read it before propagating? Mactruth (talk) 03:21, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Explanations to Mactruth

Chap, just cool your jets.- Read first.- It is not a war between you and me, neither between Greeks and Slav "Macedonians".- Alright ? The scope of the article is to highlight Peter's greatness in sport. Else the "ethnicity" chapter will surely be erased.-

I am not against your "Macedonian" pride, nor against your right to exist as a country or nation, even tough I personally consider Macedonia as a whole and Greek, and Alexander the Great as a Greek hero, and Ancient Macedonians as Greeks (at least partially) and I do not like the former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia named as "Republic of Macedonia" (I would certainly prefer Vardarska). But my feelings or beliefs have nothing to do with writing an article about a sportsman for an encyclopedia.

Peter Daicos is certainly an Aegean Macedonian, a Slavophone one. Coming form Vevi -otherwise called Banitsa- he certainly has Bulgarian blood (in fact it is said his true familyname is Daicov). I am not saying he is of Hellenic stock. I am sure that he accepted being named in the Greek Team of the Century just as he stated: "to honour the sacrifices his parents made". Those same parents that immigrated from GREECE to Australia with GREEK passport, just because of the simple fact that their homeland lies within GREEK borders, and they were GREEK citizens (although not "Hellenic"). Modern Greece as a country and nation is made up from different peoples, else than Hellenes, who contributed to her development (Arvanites, Slavs, Vlachs, Gypsies and many others)

In the case of Peter Daicos, his only links with Greece are the ones stated above but his ethnic affiliation is at least Slavic in context. One thing is to have Greek heritage or belong to a Greek background (in a geographical / political /cultural context), other thing is to be "Ethnic Greek", that is to say to have Hellenic blood in your veins, to be a "Hellene" (Έλληνας).

Regarding what Hellenes consider about being "Ethnic Greek", it means something else. A person no matter how much admixture of other ethnic backgrounds he might have, or where he was born, if he posseses at least one ancestor having Hellenic blood, is considered to belong to Greek (Hellenic) ethnicity. Maybe, he cannot even qualify for Greek citizenship, because there are no official documents that prove it, but culturally the other fellow Έλληνες will make you fell one of them with pride.

I do not know if other ethnicities share this same point of view or not. I personally belong to a very mixed family (Italians, French, Albanians and Hellenic Greeks) and I was born abroad in America like my parents. Only one grandfather of mine was Greek-born. I still hold Greek passport, served myself in the Greek army, and I am a Greek citizen "by birth" according to Greek laws.- Periptero (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeated Vandalism

Vandalism has been occuring repeatedly in the article, in which Periptero and other Greek "authors" delete or try to hide information from the audience:

1) In Line 41, in regards to the Greek Century team it is constantly changed to include "reserved for players having full or partial Greek heritage", even though it is stated later on in the section "ethnicity." This imposes a connection between joining the team and being exclusively Greek, an argument Greeks are trying to subtly imply.

2) In the section "ethnicity" it is changed to state "The matter of Daicos' ethnicity is debated between Slavophone Greeks and Aegean Macedonians." This implies confusion to the reader since Aegean Macedonians are a subgroup of ethnic Macedonians but are also a subgroup of Slavophone Greek (Slavophone by discrimination [unable to call themselves Macedonians]and Greek by citizenship). The most simplistic statement that would identify which ETHNICITY, and not subgroups, are debating should be "The matter of Daicos' ethnicity is debated between Greeks and ethnic Macedonians"

3) In the section "ethnicity" it is stated "The only certain fact is that his parents are immigrants from the village of Vevi, near Florina in now-a-days Greece; who are bilingual in Greek and Slavic Language." This is pure hidden agenda, using weasel words as "only certain" to imply all other statements are fugue in truth. Also, I have used Peter Daicos' autobiography written by himself which describe much more facts, such as the fact that he identifies himself ethnicity as Macedonian, and speaks the language Macedonian ("I am of Macedonian background" and "I speak Macedonian at home, not Greek"), but this are being hidden (see 4)

4) In the section "ethnicity", Peter Daicos' autobiography is only used as a source for "Although Peter defines himself as Macedonian", in which no ethnic marker can be verified and afterward his football Greek team is again connected to his ethnicity by stating, "he accepted to be named vice-captain of the Greek Team of the Century to honour the sacrifices that my parents made" in a subtle way trying to connect both of his parents with being Greek.

Again, this "exclusive" agenda cannot be used based on just the football team, find more facts before twisting words, current facts and statements. Mactruth (talk) 01:36, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Answers to accusations

1) Greek AFL Team of the Century is indeed "reserved for players having full or partial Greek heritage". I repeat: Modern Greece as a country is made up from different people, else than Hellenes, who contributed to her development (Arvanites, Slavs, Vlachs, Romaniotes, Gypsies and many others) therefore they have GREEK heritage just for the fact they hail from GREECE. It does not necessary mean to be from HELLENIC race or stock. In this sence, Peter Daicos - coming from a family originating in GREECE- perfectly qualifies for the team.

• REPLY: "full or partial Greek heritage" could mean "Greek ethnicity" or "Greek citizenship". The fact that he was in the Greek AFL Team is being distorted by the Greeks to prove he is Greek by ethnicity. Mactruth (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Again, now-a-days Greece is made up of people from non-ethnic Greek origin ("allogeneis") and of course from Ethnic Greek origin ("homogeneis"). He is mostly sure not Ethnic Greek and so what? I think many Greek Australians are certainly proud of having him as a honorary vice-captain of the Greek Team of the Century. Periptero (talk) 01:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

2) Redirection in the ethnicity debate is suscribed to "Slavophone Greeks" and "Aegean Macedonians" because these are the ways Slavic speaking populations in GREECE name themselves. Those who identify like GREEKS and therefore with GREECE -no matter their mother tongue is Slavic- name themselves SLAVOPHONE GREEKS. In the contrary, those who historically have been pro-Bulgarians but AT PRESENT consider themselves as a "Macedonian minority" -no matter they were born in GREECE and bear GREEK citizenship- call themselves Aegean Macedonians (like those from the Rainbow Party and many others). Taking in account the different subgroups in which the Greek people are composed of, a person will find that the only among all Greeks that may consider Peter as a proper are the Slavophones. Neither Hellenic Maniots nor Cretans nor Epirotes nor Pontians would claim for Daicos' particular representation.

• REPLY: "Slavophone Greek" can mean a "Greek who speaks Slavic" (but then they have to ask themselves why their ancestors didn't speak Greek) or it could mean "Slavic speakers of Greek citizenship" since Greece does not recognize Macedonians or other Slavics to express their ethnicity. Aegean Macedonians have always called themselves Macedonians, documentation shows that but recent subgrouping of them only occured after the division of Macedonia. Again, both Slavophone Greeks and Aegean Macedonians were at one point the same identity, while today Slavophone Greek could have multiple meaning making the wording in the text confusing to the readers. Mactruth (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Amazing. Should my kids, who bear Greek passport and citizenship but do not speak a single word of Greek because they were born and raised in Spanish speaking Argentina and whose only Greek born ancestor was their great-grandfather ask themselves why their grandparents didn`t speak Greek? Is language a basis for ethnicity in modern times? So I am a Spanish speaking Greek ...Should I give up my Greekness then? Enough ... Greeks say Slavophones are Hellenes Slavicized -therefore their speaking tongue- and Slavomacedonians say that Aegean Macedonians are "indigenous" Macedonians who "melted" with Slavs that underwent forced Hellenization ... who is true ? Confusing the reader? Things aren' t that complicated: a) Slavophone Greeks identify with Greece b) Aegean Macedonians used to identify with Bulgaria and at present with FYROM (or Republic of Macedonia so as not to offend). Periptero (talk) 01:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

3) The fact about his family place of origin (Vevi), located in now-a-days GREECE remains the only certain fact. Those who cite his autobiography (Collingwood and Me, by Peter Daicos , Jake Naill 1991)provide no Editing Press, no date of release, no printing place ... I hope this source is not just one "plugged" from websites where unverifiable material is full. If someone has more details, please provide them to me via my user's Wikipedia page. I would certainly like to get through more info. I looked through Amazon and Allibris but I couldn't find this book at all. Regarding his mono-lingual speaking subject at home, showing a sence of good faith, we will fix it.

• REPLY: The book is available, you don't you pick up a copy and read, worried you will not like what you hear? Mactruth (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Mate, I was the one who has done the correct research and provided the exact source - read below "BOOK"-. As a matter of fact, I think that in the rush of placing any sort of "pro-Macedonian" reference you even copied the wrong author's name. Plus, I corrected the whole text so as not to be bias since although you provided it wrong, I could get through the correct source. Why should I be worried? Because of reading about Daicos saying he is a Slavomacedonian? That he is not Hellenic? Brilliant ... and so what ... I repeat: I am very proud that he honoured all the Greeks by accepting to be the vice captain of the GREEK Team of the Century. By being a "Macedonian" he showed greatness and a good spirit for the understanding between Slavs and Greeks. Periptero (talk) 01:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

4) Regarding Peter Daicos defining himself as "Macedonian", the reader will find that the redirection takes him to the "Aegean Macedonians" page, which means the exact patterns stated in #2. Enough about this.

If someone has aditional information or would like to discuss matters with me I encourage and welcome to please contact me in my personal Wikipedia user page, and do not place nonsence defamatory allegations here since it is not a forum.(Periptero (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC))

You both lose. He wasn't born in either or has citizenship for either. He's Australian. Not Macedonian, not Greek.60.224.160.192 (talk) 04:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Book

I assume that the book stated by "sensitive" users might be this one:

Daicos : Collingwood and me / by Peter Daicos with Jake Niall Kilmore, Vic. : Floradale Productions, 1991. ISBN 0646033913

It is written and compiled by sports journo Jake Niall (not Naill as provided). A page source should be a must.

(Periptero (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

PETER DAICOS ATTENDED SPEECH GIVEN BY MACEDONIAN PRIME MINISTER GRUEVSKI

Along with his parents, Peter Daicos was in attendance at the speech delivered at the Hilton Hotel by Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski on 28th October 2009.

Yet another link (if any were indeed needed) that Daicos identifies as an ethnic Macedonian and not a Greek.

All this is bunk, as the man himself in his biography states unequivocally that he speaks Macedonian and that he is Macedonian and that his parents are from teh village of "Banica"...deliberately avoiding using the Greek government imposed name of teh village of "Vevi".

It seems that "periptero" is engaging in a futile propaganda campaign in an attempt to muddy the otherwise clear waters.

Daicos has repeatedly stated in writing, in television interviews and in private conversation that he is Macedonian (ie: non-Greek variety).

Enough said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.128.20 (talk) 12:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Peter Daicos/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Peter Daicos is 100% Macedonian. Ask him yourself how he feels about being called a greek, most likely he would sock you one. www.historyofmacedonia.org Remove this propaganda immediately. Sheer garbage.

Last edited at 13:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 02:42, 30 April 2016 (UTC)