Talk:Peter Lorre/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I've removed the external link to http://www.peterlorrebook.com -- it's not released yet, so I don't see how it can be used as a source for information in the article. I removed the geocities links as they aren't appropriate -- wikipedia isn't for advertising every temporary fan page. The two remaining ext links are, IMO, debatable: I suppose one fan page is ok, and the sound archive adds something interesting.

For the sake of keeping any potentially useful information, here is a formatted reference to the book. Should anyone purchase it and use it to improve this article, you can use this method to cite it (see edit page for how to do this):

==References==
*{{cite book|author=Stephen D. Youngkin|title=The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre|publisher=University Press of Kentucky|year=2005|id=ISBN 0-8131-2360-7}}

and the image: The Lost One Motor 19:47, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Austrian or Hungarian?

I don't think that Peter Lorre was a "Hungarian actor" but an US-american-austrian actor. Here is page where that topic is discussed:

http://www.germanhollywood.com/casabl2.html

And in the german part of the wikipedia Lorre is called a "US-amerikanisch-österreichischer".

But my english is not so good, maybe someone else should edit the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.180.100.253 (talk) 23:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Lorre was born in what is now Slovakia; it was then in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Andrew Szanton, 4/06—Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Szanton (talk • contribs) 18:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Lorre was born in Austro-Hungary. His native language was Hungarian, though the place where he was born is now in Slovakia. Ordinary Person 08:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The best way to characterize him would be Jewish-Hungarian since his matriculated first name, László, is clearly Hungarian.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.209.35 (talk) 08:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

In theory (and simplifying a bit), Austria-Hungary after 1867 was two independent states which happened to have the same monarch, like England and Scotland between 1603 and 1707. Slovakia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary (I don't have maps good enough to tell if the new borders deviate from the old). Would a native of Greater Hungary react to being called "Austrian" the same way some Scots do when called "English"? —Tamfang 01:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Being a Hungarian myself, I would react the same way. :-) - Neon Knights—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.21.245 (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Lorre wasn't Hungarian. The name given to him was Ladislav and points to Slovakia. But back then Slovaks weren't allowed to use their language, so the first name was changed to László. This doen't make him a Hungarian, of course. Lorre never spoke Hungarian. In fact his family soon moved to Vienna where he was brought up, went to school and started his career. Then look at his last name: Löwenstein. Which clearly isn't Hungarian or Slovak. If you listen to his voice in Fritz Lang's M you will clearly notice his Viennese accent (if you are sensitive towards such things). Let's not forget: Until emigrating to the US Lorre held Austrian citizenship. That's why he should be labeled as an Austrian-American actor. --Catgut 06:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

He WAS a Hungarian Jew. He was never called Ladislav, even his father had a Hungarian name: Alajos. His family name does no justice: in Hungary we have any types of family names. My friend has a Slovak family name and that doens't make him Slovak. But any doubts? Read Youngkin's definitve book (The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.3.242 (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

But he was an AUSTRIAN citizen. That makes him Austrian. And judging by your comment, you are Hungarian, which leads me to suspect that this is a matter more of national pride for you than of citable fact. Monkeyzpop 16:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Citizenship is one thing, origin is another. Following your logic Arnold Schwarzenegger is just an American actor? Of course not. And sure I have national pride, who doesn't? But I am also staying with the facts and what Peter considered. He left his homeland and became an Austrian citizen, and the world got to know him as an Austrian actor. I have nothing against this. But deleting ALL the facts on this site regarding Peter's Hungarian origins is not fair to say the least. Plus I sent an email to Youngkin to make justice in this matter himself.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.3.242 (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian or not? There you go:

JUST GOT THIS EMAIL FROM PETERLORREBBOOK.COM

Dear ...,

Thank you for writing! I have forwarded your eMail note to Stephen Youngkin, who always enjoys hearing from fans of Peter Lorre's.

But to answer your question -- Yes, Peter Lorre was Hungarian.

He was born in Roszahegy, "a small primarily Slovak town of 12,490 inhavitants nestled against the High Tatra Mountains on Hungary's northern border. Rising sharply out of a high plateau in the central Carpathians, they kept close company with the Transylvania Alps." (Page 6, "The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre", by Stephen D. Youngkin)

Countries' borders changed over the years, but in the many interviews Peter gave during his lifetime, he always identified himself as Hungarian, born in the Carpathian Mountains.

You can read an excerpt from "The Lost One" at the publisher's website:

http://www.kentuckypress.com/expertyoungkin.cfm

And also here, at the English-language version of Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813123607/qid=1122176654/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3875388-8012158?v=glance&s=books

Thank you again for your eMail note.

Best wishes, Webmaster, "The Lost One" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.3.242 (talk) 09:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Even before seeing this note, I felt that the changes you just made, identifying Lorre as Hungarian-Austrian-American and supplying the alternative family and town names, was just right. The difficulty you've had, I believe, stemmed from an apparent insistence that only one of the factors in Lorre's heritage could be used (the one you chose). By providing this evidence of the multiplicity of national and geographical information pertinent to Lorre's case, you have, as far as I'm concerned, eliminated the problem. I suggest that we let this stand as of the edit revision 169829734 by 80.99.3.242 (talk. Concensus? Monkeyzpop 11:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you. I hoped this solution will satisfy everybody. P.S.: I suggest to take a look at the first link I posted above. Check the pdf file. In the end of it you'll find some hillarious pictures with Peter, Bogie and Lauren Bacall. Great book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.3.242 (talk) 11:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Using Lowenstein as evidence that he is not Hungarian, like many do, on this board is ridiculous. Many Slavic and Hungarian Jews changed their names to German surnames in that era, just look at Emeric Pressburger's family! Emmerich Pressburger is a more German name than Laszlo Lownestein', though in reality Pressburger was Imre Joszef Emmeric Pressburger, a descendant of Szekler Magyars, whose family changed their name to sound more aristocratic (e.g. Austrian).

Also, Peter Lorre stated in an interview that he was Hungarian. I'll look for it and get back here with it. 86.146.195.35 (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I recently removed the "Hungarian" categories from this article as I couldn't find any proof for this. User User:Skyerise then reverted this stating "subject publicly identified as Hungarian, that's why...". Looking at the article again - and at this discussion - I cannot find any proof for this (other than hear-say). Just going by the first name "Lazlo" isn't helpful, as this may be fairly arbitrary at the time (depending on the officials who registered it etc. - and what about the surname?). The only thing that seems to be evidence in the discussion above is the link provided to the book Stephen D. Youngkin: "The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre." However, no quote or actual reference is given, and browsing through what's available online I can only find reference stating that the ability of Lorre's father to "write to both German and Magyar pushed him a stock higher." On the other hand, a verifiable source is quoted in the article (a German biography of Lorre - see footnote 1) that states: 'that Lorre's family were outsiders in Rózsahegy as they, who had only arrived there very recently, were German-speaking Jews in a majority Slovak town.' Source: Friedemann Beyer: Peter Lorre. Seine Filme - sein Leben, München 1988, p.8 ("Sie waren Juden, und sie sprachen deutsch in einer Gegend, in der überwiegend Slowaken lebten.") - Also, they not only moved there shortly before Lorre's birth, they also moved away, to Vienna, fairly soon afterwards. - Maybe I'm missing something. On balance, though, I cannot find evidence here that he was "Hungarian" in any kind of meaningful way. Albrecht Conz (talk) 07:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing nationality with ethnicity. We describe people by their nationality in the lead sentence, so we are not making a statement about ethnicity here. It doesn't matter where his parents came from or what ethnicity they were: Lorre was born in the Kingdom of Hungary and this automatically makes him a Hungarian national, which is how we describe his nationality. Perhaps he also had additional citizenships based on his parent's citizenships, but we'd need sources for this. And WP:OPENPARA does suggest that we use the nationality held at the time the subject became notable, but again, we'd need sources to show that Lorre was formally granted such citizenship. Had he formally become an Austrian or German citizen before M was filmed? If you've got sources then by all means we can use that nationality in the lead sentence. But without sources, all we know was that he was born a subject of the Kingdom of Hungary and by our standards, should be described as Hungarian. The fact that you also go on about his parents being German-speaking Jewish outsiders suggest to me that you object to describing Lorre as being of Hungarian ethnicity, but that's not what we are asserting in the lead sentence, we are describing his citizenship-based nationality. The Hungarian categories you removed also refer to nationality, not ethnicity. Because he was born in Hungary, they would still be included even though he later formally changed citizenship, along with the equivalents for his supported second citizenship. He didn't become an American citizen until after he'd attained notability, so for the purposes of the lead sentence, we still describe him as Hungarian. Hope this helps you better understand our standard lead sentence construction and semantics. Skyerise (talk) 11:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Morocco Mole

I think perhaps the name of this character might have been influenced by the Peter Lorre role in Casablanca. (Casablanca is in Morocco.) Possibly this is not significant enough to go in a Wikipedia article. Ordinary Person 00:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Beavis

I don't notice any similarity between PL and Beavis, apart from nasality (which they both share with, say, Bob Dylan); has Mike Judge said there is a connexion? —Tamfang 01:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Small alter

There's a tendency to put Family Guy references into articles when it's not really useful or accurate and I'm hoping to counteract that.I suppose there might be some respects Stewie Griffin has similarities to Peter Lorre's characters, but if we go down that path so do an endless number of creepy characters. Also I altered the thing on the Genie as his character is mostly not like a Lorre character at all, but there was the one scene about "no wishing to bring back the dead" where he did a Lorre impression.--T. Anthony 15:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

"quip at the funeral"?

The article makes reference to "his quip at the funeral of Bela Lugosi (see below)..." No further reference is made to Lugosi or any funeral. To what "quip" is this referring? - Brian Kendig 13:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Bela Lugosi was buried in his costume from his dracula chacter. While Vincent price and Pete Lorre were viewing Bela, Peter said should we stake him. Just in case? -(karen carter) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.67.232 (talk) 16:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Mystery in the Air

I can hardly believe this, but the article makes no mention of Mr. Lorre's own radio show, Mystery in the Air sponsored by Camel Cigarettes. Gotta be one of the best old-timey radio shows ever. Plus, his many roles as a guest star on other radio programs like Suspense. --Nerd42 (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC) http://www.old-time.com/otrlogs2/mia.log.txt

Spike Jones and the City Slickers:"My Old Flame"

One of the best parodies of the Peter Lorre persona was this 40's hit for the USA comedy band Spike Jones and the City Slickers. Paul Frees, (Best remembered as the voice of Boris in "Rocky and Bulwinkle") does Peter Lorre reciting the lyrics of the Arthur Johnson/Sam Coslow 1934 standard "My Old Flame" with macarbe asides ie "My Old Flame/ I can't even think of her name/(I'll have to look at my collection of shrunken heads)." This hit single pops up on many "Best of" collections of Spike Jones and the City Slickers. I have a CD of a December 10, 1948 radio show "The Spike Jones Show" where Lorre is a guest and he obliges by reciting this song. Line notes by show writer Eddie Brandt tells how Lorre had to practice in front of a mirror pre-show to ham up his usual subtle sinister style into the cringing, whinning maniac that the song demanded. 203.59.171.82 12:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Matthew Bateman-Graham

Tribute in Grim Fandango

Maybe this should be pust in the "Trivia", or in the "Emulating..." paragraph, but there is also a tribute to Lorre in the game Grim Fandango. The character Chowchilla Charlie resembles him in voice and appearance very much (well, as much as skeletons resemble people, because most of the characters are skeletons). He appears in a part of the game that is inspired particularly by Casablanca and The Maltese Falcon, and I think it's worth mentioning.

Here's a clip with him from the game - http://youtube.com/watch?v=2kph8NEw-Z8 --89.190.200.137 13:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Throwing in a Quick 2 cents

Sorry to comment when I'm not taking the time at the moment to provide any improvement... but starting out an article on Peter Lorre with trivia on a minor television appearance more of interest to James Bond than Peter Lorre fans is rather unbalanced. He is certainly not known these days for playing Le Chiffre since this footage is not available for viewing anywhere except in a university archive. This detail should be way down in the article. Also, although I'm interested in emulators of Lorre (having been the one to add the Booberry reference to IMDB), it's sad that this is the largest single section of this article. The original performances that inspired so many immitators should take precedence.

Well, I hope to spend some time with my Lorre reference library and make some additions in the future (with a personal log-in, of course). I hope that if I move Le Chiffre to a position that gives it just the amount of prominence it deserves I won't be seen as a "vandal" by the Wikipolice.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.152.101.44 (talk) 01:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Well, what is it? Lore-ey? Lorruh? Lore-uh? EamonnPKeane (talk) 22:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

References in popular culture section is needed

The band World/Inferno Friendship Society has a song titled Peter Lorre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.221.92.11 (talk) 23:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

political action

apparently Lorre was active in the U.S. against the House Committee on Un-American activities. Can this be worked into the article? Kingturtle (talk) 14:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Lorre images used in Nazi propaganda

Interesting that the same powerful portrayal that attracted Alfred Hitchcock to Lorre, was also later used in Nazi propaganda.

The Eternal Jew, a 1940 Nazi film, used Lorre's image from the 1931 German drama M as a clip:

The Jew Lorre in the role of a child murderer. Not the murderer but the victim is guilty, according to this film, which presents the criminal sympathetically, to gloss over and excuse the crime. http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/stills.shtml

Stills and Narration from 'Der ewige Jude' (The Eternal Jew)] Lent (talk) 00:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Attempted deletion of "spam" links

An editor is attempting to remove an external link and a reference from the article as being "spam" links, but as far as I can tell, these are legitimate and not spam. The reference in questions is to the book The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre, which is published by a university press, was reviewed by the Washington Post, and is available on Amazon. These indicators make a prima facie case for the legitimacy of the source. The website in question is run by the author of the book, and is not a fansite.

Given this, the editor needs to make an argument here for the removal of these links, and I've asked him or her to do so. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 04:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Under the guidelines, we should be referencing the book, not linking to the site that sells it. If there's no third-party link to the contents of the book (such as Google Books) the URL can be left out. I think there's some decent content on the site (which is why I didn't remove it earlier) but it certainly could be construed as spam. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 06:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The link is topical, relevant and informational. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 06:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, slightly off topic, please note that the only edits made by the editor in question have been to remove these links. That certainly raises some interesting questions. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 06:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

What about a compromise: remove the link to the book's page in the reference list, but keep the link to the website overall in the ELs, for its informational value (the website of an author who's written two published books on the subject). Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 06:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I've also removed the Amazon links on the other two books on the list. (Those interested can still get to their favorite online bookseller through ISBN preferences). Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 06:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. Let's see if anyone else has input. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 06:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Spam sites are not allowed on Wikipedia for a very good reason. Since the site in question here exists solely to sell a book, it most definitely qualifies as spam. Renaming a link to that site something like "More Photos" does nothing to change the fact that anyone clicking on the link will be brought to the spam site.Jackmontrose (talk) 03:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

While the site does primarily exist to sell a book, it also contains a significant number of photographs and meaningful captions that otherwise couldn't be included on Wikipedia. The content goes beyond advertising (though not far beyond, to be sure). At any rate, it's not quite as clear-cut as you make it out to be. And the editor who wants to keep it is not, as far as I know, affiliated with the site.

This appears to be a serious issue for you; I notice you've done nothing on Wikipedia for the past 2 1/2 years except try to get this one link removed. Is there a reason for that that goes beyond our external links guidelines? If not, keep in mind that occasional exceptions can be made to guidelines. Perhaps this could be one of those? Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 04:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I’ve just been apprised of the kerfuffle raised over the Wikipedia link to peterlorrebook.com. Initially, the primary purpose of this site was to get word out about my biography of Peter Lorre (The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre). But it also had a secondary objective, that of featuring rare, unpublished photos that didn’t make the book, along with more information than a caption would allow. That was three years ago. Once sales moderated, my idea was to develop peterlorrebook.com into a general Peter Lorre website. In addition to expanding the photo library (an ongoing process), we’ve added sections on poster artwork, the availability of films on DVD and VHS, FAQ, and the World/Inferno Friendship Society's multi-media production "Addicted to Bad Ideas: Peter Lorre in the 20th Century," etc. What’s more, we plan new pages on Lorre’s television work and Lorre in advertising, from German cookies to wine and tobacco. Ads for the book, which let readers know where they can learn more about the actor, run alongside those for various other movie and radio sellers and are peripheral -- in both size and content -- to the scope of what is now primarily an informational site. StephenYoungkin (talk) 19:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Where?

I noticed in the "Imitating Lorre" section that someone stated that the “Peter Lorre-like mad scientist” from Looney Tunes made a cameo appearance in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I know the character makes a cameo appearance in Looney Tunes: Back in Action, but when and where in Who Framed Roger Rabbit does the character make a appearance in?-Endor chicken—Preceding undated comment added at 02:07, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarian

This probably needs more work. What is supposed to be listed in the lead is a person's citizenship, not their nationality or ethnic background. On top of that, it is supposed to reflect their citizenship when they became famous if they'd changed their citizenship before that.

Next, neither Austria nor Hungary existed as independent states at the time of Lorre's birth. What would be pertinent is what country he was considered a citizen of after Austria-Hungary broke up. Whether is name is of Hungarian origin is of no import to what should be said in the lead, only his citizenship. The categories will also need to be updated to reflect citizenship rather than any other consideration.

Most likely, since he and his family were living in Vienna, they became Austrian citizens. He would still have been an Austrian citizen when he became when a became famous for his role in M. I don't have a problem with using his Austro-Hungarian birth citizenship in the lead, but the categorization should be based on his presumably Austrian citizenship. Yworo (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Your conception of the situation in Austria-Hungary is flawed. Lorre was (apparently) born a citizen of the Kingdom of Hungary. Under the dual monarchy, Austria and Hungary were held in personal union by the Hapsburg monarch. From 1867 the Kingdom of Hungary had its own citizenship law. He was a national of the Kingdom of Hungary. Whether he lost his Hungarian citizenship or acquired Austrian Citizenship before the close of WWI is interesting, but not decisive. His citizenship would have thereafter been determined by the Treaty of Trianon. Under Trianon, he would have lost any retained Hungarian citizenship by operation of law by residing in the Republic of Austria for more than a year (there probably was a opt out provision, however, that he would have had to invoke formally). He then became a German Citizen with the Anschluss in 1938, unless he was deprived of that citizenship by operation of the Nuremberg Laws due to his ethnicity, in which case, he may have become stateless. Matters get more complicated by his American Naturalization in 1941. Whether he lost his German citizenship (if any) by naturalization in the US would have been a function of the nationality law of 1914 in effect at the time. I believe he would have. However, he may have had or been eligible to have his Austrian Citizen restored after the legal reversal of the Anschluss citizenship merger after WWII. And so on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Criticality (talk • contribs) 22:09, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Peter Lorre Was Hungarian

Peter Lorre always identified himself as "Hungarian" -- not only in the many interviews he gave during his lifetime but also in official documents.

I got this list from Lorre's authorized biographer Stephen Youngkin, who researched his life and career for his book The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre (University Press of Kentucky, 2005).

List or Manifest of Alien Passengers for the U.S. (on S.S. Majestic)…nationality…Hungarian (July 18, 1934)

English passport (issued by Hungarian Consul) (November 11, 1935)

American Consular Service…application for Immigrant Visa (Quota)...“is of Hungarian nationality” (January 10, 1936)

Petition for Naturalization (present nationality…Hungarian) (April 30, 1936)

Declaration of Intention (race…Magyar…nationality Hungarian (August 21, 1936)

Cert. of Naturalization (cites former nationality as “Hungarian” (August 8, 1941)

Alien Registration Form ("I am a citizen of Hungary") (November 27, 1940) Spywriter (talk) 04:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

That's great. Cite the page number(s) in Youngkin's book where he makes that crystal clear. Despite it's being searchable on Google Books, I can only find references to him being "Austro-Hungarian" and "Hungarian-born" in that book. Nothing about being an Hungarian citizen. And no reference whatsover to the documents you've mentioned here. Yworo (talk) 05:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Peter Lorre's birthplace of Roszahegy is discussed on pages 5 and 6 of Chapter 1:

"The following year, he [Lorre's father Alois] accepted the position of chief bookkeeper with the Textil Industrie Aktiengesellshaft in Roszahegy, a small primarily Slovak town of 12,490 inhavitants nestled against the High Tatra Mountains on Hungary's northern border. Rising sharply out of a high plateau in the central Carpathians, they kept close company with the Transylvania Alps. However, as the elevation dropped, wolves, bears, and wildcats gave way to spring and summer cow pastures and, lower yet, to vineyards. Closely tied to the land, Roszahegy depended on the production of textiles, wood, cotton, flax, grains, livestock, and marble.

On June 26, 1904, Elvira gave birth to their first child, Laszlo, who would become better known as Peter Lorre. . . ."

Establishing at the beginning of the book Peter Lorre's birthplace -- Roszahegy, Hungary -- Stephen Youngkin did not feel it necessary to state constantly that his nationality was Hungarian. He used the documents I listed above as reference and pulled from them other information of interest, such as his religion and occupation.

Rather than using Google to search on terms such as "Austro-Hungarian" and "Hungarian-born", why not read The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre?

You'll find an excerpt from the book at the publisher's website:

http://www.kentuckypress.com/expertyoungkin.cfm

And here, at the English-language version of Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813123607/qid=1122176654/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3875388-8012158?v=glance&s=books

And also here, on the book's official website:

http://peterlorrebook.com/excerpt.html

Since Mr. Youngkin interviewed dozens of people who knew and worked with Peter Lorre, including first wife Celia Lovsky, brothers Andrew and Francis, daughter Cathy Lorre, directors, actors, writers, and crew on Lorre films, and close friends such as Burl Ives, I think you might find your questions about Lorre's life and career answered in the pages of The Lost One.

Spywriter (talk) 04:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As I noted before, Lorre could not possibly have been born in Hungary simply because it did not exist as an independent nation at the time, but rather was part of Austria-Hungary. Right off the bat, this makes Youngkin's work of questionable reliability on the matter, that it does not mention this, something an historian would not have neglected to mention. The Manual of Style requires the use of citizenship in the lead paragraph, not some vague idea of nationality or ethnicity. The other sources you are citing are primary sources and not available to us, you are reporting hearsay about them. And I told you what I'd done, I'd looked at the very parts of the book you are quoting using Google Books AND Amazon. Nowhere does the book clarify Lorre's citizenship after the breakup of Austria-Hungary which was the country in which he was born, and to which there can be doubt that his original citizenship was attributed. Perhaps some other (better) biographer discusses the matter or cites his sources in footnotes? We need a secondary source which makes the matter clear, that's all. And you haven't provided one yet. Yworo (talk) 11:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A similar situation could exist with Czechoslovakia. Let's say someone born in that country is a permanent resident of the U.S. but had retained his Czechoslovakian citizenship. OK, the country divides into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. So which country is that guy a citizen of? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, Spywriter, I find one of your claims highly suspect. You state "English passport (issued by Hungarian Consul) (November 11, 1935)". This is just so wrong and confusing I don't know what to make of it. First, there is no such thing as an English passport, only a British passport. Second, if a person has a British passport, then they would be a British citizen. Third, the Hungarian consul would have no authority to issue such a passport, they would only be able to issue an Hungarian passport. This one statement is so egregiously wrong that it throws every other document you claim exists into doubt.

The whole list, even if the other items are accurate, implies that Lorre had no papers when he arrived in England and that assumptions were made based on his place of birth. This in no way proves that he had become an Hungarian rather than an Austrian citizen when his family moved to Vienna and Austria-Hungary was split into multiple nations. It was simply expedience in getting papers to allow him to travel to the US. Clearly without papers documenting Austrian citizenship, bringing it up would have hopelessly confused the process.

All I am asking for is a valid reliable secondary source that states what Lorre's citizenship was between his known Austro-Hungarian and American citizenships. Otherwise I see no problem whatsover using Austro-Hungarian in the lead. It's where he was born, it's his undisputable original citizenship, and his birthplace is mentioned later in the correct place in the article. Yworo (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

What should it have been, given that he was born in a country that split up after WWI? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I wish I knew. If the Lorres hadn't moved out of Hungary to Vienna, I have no doubt they would have become Hungarian citizens. As permanent residents of Vienna by that time, I would expect them to have become Austrian citizens. Peter came of age in Vienna, not in Hungary, so my expectation would be that he would have applied for his paperwork in Vienna before moving out of Vienna to Breslau then Zürich. Yworo (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As I continue to research this, I find that at least in parts of the split territories, post Austro-Hungarian citizenship was based on domicile, not nativity. In Austria, however, I find that registered war-refugees were repatriated. This suggests that people who were in Vienna who were not war-refugees were not repatriated and became Austrian citizens based on current domicile. It seems we need more details on the when and why the family moved to Vienna. Yworo (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Another tidbit: in some areas, people were given a choice of becoming citizens based on their domicile or based on their place of birth. However, if their choice made them a citizen of a country other than that in which they were domiciled, they had to move back to their country of choice. So, if the Lorres had become Hungarian citizens either by choice or as repatriated war refuges, they would have had to move into Hungary. As they did not, it seems an almost inevitable conclusion that they became, either by choice or by default, Austrian citizens. Yworo (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, after further research, including rereading the discussion earlier on this very page, there is absolutely no basis for calling Lorre Hungarian.

1. The part of the Kingdom of Hungary (an expanded Hungary which included many ethnically non-Hungarian (or rather, non-Magyar) subjects) where Lorre was born did not become part of Hungary after WWI but rather part of Czechoslovakia. Were he not an Austrian citizen, he would have been considered a Czechoslovakian citizen if citizenship had been based on his place of birth.
2. Lorre did not speak Hungarian, he spoke German; nor is his birth surname, Löwenstein, an Hungarian name.
3. The Lorres moved to Austria well before WWI. During WWI they moved to a farm then in Austria but which after WWI became part of Yugoslavia. When this change in national borders occurred, they returned to Vienna. Had they been Hungarian or Czechoslovakian citizens, they probably would have been required to move into their country of citizenship.

Based on these facts, Lorre's father was most certainly an Austrian citizen as was Peter. In many, many articles on the Web, including German Wikipedia, Lorre is clearly identified as Austrian-American. The MoS is clear that in this sort of dispute, it is citizenship and not any other considerations of birthplace or claimed ethnicity which is to apply in the lead section. I'll be updating the article to conform to this. Yworo (talk) 20:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yworo, I'm just wondering why this is such an issue with you.

As I said above, Peter Lorre identified his nationality as Hungarian in every interview he gave -- and he gave many throughout his lifetime, especially during the first several years in the U.S. He considered himself a citizen of Hungary up until Aug. 8, 1941, when he was sworn in as an American citizen.

You say he did not speak Hungarian. I'm afraid you are incorrect. In fact, Peter could speak the language. According to Stephen Youngkin: "Lorre did speak some Hungarian, in fact usually spoke it with his Hungarian pharmacist in the late 50s/early 60s." Since his father could speak both German and Hungarian, it's not at all surprising that Peter could speak Hungarian, too.

You questioned the "English passport" I mentioned above. Mr. Youngkin sent me more information about it, plus a photocopy of the document:

"Passport (number) issued by Hungarian Consul, London England."

His contact with the Hungarian Consul in London would seem to indicate that Peter Lorre considered himself Hungarian -- and officials at that time did, too.

Spywriter (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not a big issue with me; it's you who appears to be making it a big issue. Lorre was an Austrian citizen when he became famous. Whether or not he later styled himself as Hungarian or whether he was ethnically Hungarian makes no difference in the lead, per the Manual of Style (please read), the lead lists his citizenship at the time he became famous, not his "nationality", "ethnicity", etc. You may use your sources to add a section later in the article about this. But like all encylcopedias, Wikipedia has a clear style guideline about how to identify a person's citizenship in the lead paragraph. Other encyclopedias may have different standards and may use Hungarian if they are using nationality or ethnicity as their standard rather than citizenship. But this has no bearing on what is correct on Wikipedia. If indeed after Lorre escaped from Germany he found it convenient in order to get a passport to identify himself as Hungarian (presumably because Austria was already coming under the influence of Nazi Germany in 1935), that in no way changes the fact that he was an Austrian citizen when M was made for which he became famous. If he styled himself as Hungarian after arriving in London, that is indeed very interesting. It'd make great material for a new section if you can provide the necessary secondary sources which discuss it as citations. Go for it. Yworo (talk) 16:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I am not Austrian. I have nothing against Hungarians. In fact, my wife is of Hungarian descent. Are you Hungarian? If so, perhaps you are unable to be objective about the issue. Yworo (talk) 17:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not Hungarian. I am an American.

I think I get the picture now. You're trying to edit the description of Peter Lorre's background, according to Wikipedia's rules on the subject. I'm not trying to edit anything, so I am not concerned about the Manual of Style.

As Webmaster of the "Lost One" website, I was asked some time ago about Peter's nationality. I answered according to what I know about it from Stephen Youngkin (who is a long-time friend of mine and whose book I read while it was still a manuscript and then in galleys right before publication), as well as The Lost One: A Life of Peter Lorre. I stand by my response that Peter was born in Hungary and considered himself as Hungarian until he became an American citizen in 1941.

If you want to discuss what country he became a citizen of when the European borders changed during his early years, go right ahead. You could say he was first a Hungarian citizen, then an Austrian citizen, then a Yugoslav citizen, then a Czech citizen, then a Swiss citizen, then a German citizen, then a French citizen, then an English citizen -- or rather, a British subject -- before finally becoming an American citizen.

As far as I'm concerned, Peter was Hungarian first, then American.

I wonder what Peter himself would make of this . . . .

Spywriter (talk) 17:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

He was not born a citizen of Hungary. He was born a citizen of Austria-Hungary. Hungary did not exist as an independent nation at the time of his birth, and his birthplace was not in Hungary after the borders were redefined. As a resident of Vienna at the time the borders were redrawn, he became a citizen of Austria. Further movement did not change his citizenship and he remained an Austrian while in Germany when he acted in M. So.... that's what we say in the lead. What we say elsewhere depends on what can be sourced. Yworo (talk) 17:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You say, "As Webmaster of the "Lost One" website"... ah, so it's good you are not planning to edit the article as that would be a clear conflict of interest. Yworo (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know who do you think who you are to judge in this all by yourself and indeed why is this a big issue for you. You ignore that László considered himself as Hungarian.Read the Yougkin book for Christ sake. Or is it just citizenship that matters? Who decides this? You? If László thought of himself as Hungarian than that is what he was! Plain and simple. Being a Hungarian is a ethnicity for more that 1100 years. It does not matter that at time Hungary was occupied by the Austrians or after WWI and WWII the western world shamefully altered my homeland's border. And by the way Löwenstein can be easily a Hungarian name. You got this wrong as well. In Hungary we have all kind of family names. László was Hungarian first then Austrian than American. You can talk as much as you want but you can not change this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.98.239.245 (talk) 09:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia rule is that the lead section is based only on citizenship at the time the individual became notable. We are not supposed to put ethnicity in the lead. Your argument is entirely based on ethnicity. This is exactly the kind of dispute that Wikipedia policy is supposed to prevent. Ethnicity goes in the early life section, not the lead section. We don't put that he was Jewish in the lead either. Only citizenship goes in the lead. That is a Wikipedia rule and my only interest is to follow that rule. His Hungarian Jewish ethnicity goes in the early life section. It is already there. Nobody is trying to deny his Hungarian Jewish ancestry. It's all a matter of it being in the right place in the article. Yworo (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The Simpsons

The Simpsons character Dr. Nick Riviera looks like Peter Lorre—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.128.51.116 (talk) 05:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Minor references/ representations

These probably won't end up in the article... there are too many of them, he's everywhere.

There was a Remington electric shaver commercial in the early 1970s which featured imitations of Bela Lugosi, Peter Lorre and Boris Karloff saying the usual types of Dracula, "dangerous little guy", and Dr. Frankenstein things about the new product. "I can't wait to get my hands on a Remington electric shaver! I'll wrap my fingers around its throat..." --Bluejay Young (talk) 00:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

An additional impression is Howard Morris' voicing of the character Weirdly Gruesome in several episodes of "The Flintstones" dating from about 1964. There was a reference/citation to the "Warner Brothers Cartoon Companion" hosted on Tron Guy's personal site; and it's now 404 site. The cache is still available: [ http://www.ulysseek.com/cached?idx=0&id=3566550 here] and is the reference to the companion's owner, Costello, E. I. with URL [ http://www.i-foo.com/~eocostello/wbcc/eowbcc-l.html The Warner Bros. Cartoon Companion: L]. I thought to cross-reference the Ren & Stimpy Wikipedia entry in the Legacy and Mimicry section (it's linked to Peter Lorre from there).

Should the Legacy and Mimicry section be expanded? -tgm8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgm8 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Not a "significant reference"??

I protest Yworo's removal of my Al Stewart lyrical reference to Peter Lorre, citing it to be "insignificant". In MANY Wikipedia articles, such references in Popular Culture are referred to. Can a more senior editor give his input and opinion please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hirenny (talk • contribs) 22:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Please don't misquote me. I said it was a "passing mention". Our popular culture guidelines states that we should not list passing mentions in song lyrics. The intent of the pop culture sections is to list in-depth references. This article gives several examples of the type of depth of reference required. Otherwise these sections devolve into a list of people's favorite songs, etc. which do no more than mention the subject in passing. A "passing mention" falls under the trivia policy. Yworo (talk) 22:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Yworo—you are linking to an essay. I read at that essay:

"This page in a nutshell: "In popular culture" sections should be carefully maintained and should contain only properly sourced examples that are bona fide cultural references. When such sections grow too long, they may be split into subarticles, but this should be done with caution."

I find at another essay:

"Wikipedia has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. The principle of the rules is more important than the letter."

I also find at that same essay:

"Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It is. It's a friendlier restatement of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules."

In my opinion there is no shortage of space for this material:

"Scottish Musician Al Stewart's 1976 Hit "The Year of the Cat" referenced Peter Lorre; "On a morning from a Bogart movie In a country where they turn back time You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre Contemplating a crime.""

The entire article is not overly long. The only shortcoming to the inclusion of such a reference seems to me to be the absence of a citation supporting it. The quotation has the virtue of being a good evocation of the personality that Peter Lorre is famous for. I see no drawback to leaving it in, but I am open to the opinions of others who may disagree with me. Bus stop (talk) 20:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

All that has to be done is to cite it to a third-party reliable source. That shows that it's a notable reference. Media just mentioning the subject's name is normally not listed. Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content is commonly applied across Wikipedia as a way to prevent "In popular culture" sections from becoming lists of trivia. Yworo (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

In "No Mad" by Sam Moffe I find: "He finished his shower, dried off and dressed, wondering if it was going to be "The Year of the Cat," because he did feel like he was waking up from being in a Bogart movie circa the year 2007 and not 1947, but he didn't feel like Peter Lorre."

The book, "No Mad", is published in 2009. Rather than being a source in support of the significance of the Al Stewart lyrics, it is a separate reference in popular culture to Lorre. But the similarities are so striking that I think it might be a reference to the Al Stewart lyrics. If the book is reinforcing the significance in popular culture of the song of 1976—"The Year of the Cat"—then I think perhaps both deserve inclusion. Bus stop (talk) 21:15, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow! A self-published book of fiction. That's the best you can come up with? Neither is an in-depth reference to the topic. Both are "mentions" and as such, are not worthy of mention in this article. Yworo (talk) 06:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Here I find:

"Singer-songwriter Al Stewart immortalized the actor, and his close association with Bogart, in the opening lines of his 1976 hit, "The Year Of The Cat": "On a morning from a Bogart movie/In a country where they turned back time/You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre/Contemplating a crime…""

And I find this reference too. And here. And here. Bus stop (talk) 12:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

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Slovak?

Lorre wasn't a Slovak actor. He was Jewish origin, with Hungarian citizeship. The State of Slovakia (Czecho-Slovakia) was founded after he left the Autrian-Hungarian state. He never acted in Hungarian or Slovakian language on any stage or film. May he could speak Hungarian and Slovak, too. His films created in German and English, so he was not a Slovak actor. ZJ (talk) 08:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Nationality redux

Lorre was born in Rózsahegy, which until 1918 was part of the Kingdom of Hungary. This means that our default choice for nationality is Hungarian. Yes, the Kingdom of Hungary was, at the time, part of Austria-Hungary, so if one wanted to be pedantic, one might use Austro-Hungarian. It's a fact that he was born in Hungary, and per WP:OPENPARA, people are described by nationality, not ethnicity, so the ethnicity of his parents has no bearing on this.

However, our actual "rule" is to use the nationality of the subject at the time they became notable. If, for example, he became a German citizen before filming M, then by all means we should describe him as German. However, this requires sourcing for the acquisition of German citizenship. Does anyone objecting to the use of his natal nationality have such sources? If not, then the article really cannot be changed.

We can't attribute citizenship to someone through supposition or even original research. So, sources please. (And the source has to be specifically about acquisition of citizenship, it can't simply be a source which calls him Austrian or German or American without reason - other publications have different editorial rules for determining nationality than Wikipedia does, so a bare unsupported statement or claim does not trump place of birth.) Skyerise (talk) 09:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Igor/ Ygor

Did he ever play Igor? Why do people give Igor a Peter Lorre voice?--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 19:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Gall bladder

I am surprised by the gall bladder part. It can easily be removed and you can live without it. Was there something preventing this surgery ? Hektor (talk) 11:11, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Gallbladder response; In the 1930’s, surgical procedures were quite advanced, but you have to remember that effective antimicrobials (“antibiotics”) weren’t really widely available and widely used until after World War II. Consequently, post-operative infections were still a very common and serious complication. I’m not certain of the particulars, but I seem to recall that he had a post-operative infection from which he nearly died, and it left him with chronic pain and therefore a lifelong dependence on morphine.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Amstd2004 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Antimicrobials, often called “antibiotics”, weren’t really widely available and widely used until after World War II. Consequently, post-operative infections were still a common and serious complication of surgery. I’m not sure of the particulars, but I seem to recall reading that he got a post-operative infection from the gallbladder surgery from which he nearly died and which left him with chronic pain and a lifelong morphine dependence. So yes, the gallbladder can be easily removed, usually, and if you apply sterile procedures and proper post-operative care including prophylactic antimicrobials, it’s usually no big deal, but that’s nowadays, not then. Amstd2004 (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Peter Lorre born in Hungary, Austria-Hungary...

is not redundant at all. It's the same like Luis Trenker (born in Tyrol, Austria-Hungary) or Egon Erwin Kisch (born in Bohemia, Austria-Hungary) etc. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 10:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Dear IP,

it is redundant, because if there is Austria-Hungary, it is evident that Kingdom of Hungary is included in this Monarchy, we don't have to list it twice, as vica versa, if Kingdom of Hungary is written, no need to write Austria-Hungary (btw. your examples fail since Tyrol may be abanoned as part of Austria and optionally may be presented as a region, similary to Bohemia, while Hungary was a separate country....Kisch does even have an infobox, while by Trenker is is heavily skimpy, since not even countries are presented)(KIENGIR (talk) 12:36, 28 January 2020 (UTC))

Besides Kisch and Trenker, to get the point: Austria-Hungary was the common state (the dual monarchy), and Kingdom of Hungary a part of it until 1918. One doesn't even understand what you mean exactly with redundant. E. g. if one says individual 18 was born in Upper Austria, Austria-Hungary you may call it redundant, I would call that a more precise definition of place's situation and belonging. The same with a person born at place in East Prussia, or West Prussia, Kingdom of Prussia, you would call that redundant, too ? --129.187.244.19 (talk) 13:22, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

No Austria-Hungary has been a joint Monarchy of two states. Redundant means, that if you put i.e. Budapest as part of Austria-Hungary, it could mean only Kingdom of Hungary, hence no need for repetition. Mostly in the infoboxes we don't use counties or regions, so there not necessarily I would argue with this, the exact location, country is mostly enough. If we count on strict precisity, then the most exact location parameters are the best, as just explained in the earlier sentence...(i.e. city/village - country).(KIENGIR (talk) 12:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC))

what about Georg Trakl ? --129.187.244.19 (talk) 09:13, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I.e., the Duchy of Salzburg may be abandoned.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC))