Talk:Petrus Phalesius the Elder

Article title

With edit on 8 March 2019, User:Paklao changed the title of this article from "Pierre Phalèse the Elder" to "Petrus Phalesius the Elder", claiming the latter name is "more commonly used". I dispute that this is the case. In my experience, most English-language sources (starting with the New Grove) use the French form of the name, not the Latinized form. Perhaps Paklao can bring forward evidence to prove me wrong, but it seems to me that, under the principle of WP:COMMONNAME, the article title should be reverted.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I dispute this too. Why should the name be Latinised? In fact I've never heard of the Latinised form. Please revert to Pierre Phalèse. Nick Michael (talk) 09:27, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

First of all, the printer was a Flemish (Brabantian) person whose birthname was a Flemish name, i.e. Peeter van der Phaliesen. An argument could be made that since this is an article about a person, his actual Flemish name (rather than a foreign language name) should be the title of the article. His printing press was active in the Flemish speaking part of the Low Countries (i.e. Leuven and Antwerp). His printing press is referred to most commonly by its Latinised name as many of his books were published in Latin. An example is the frontispiece of Canticum Beatae Mariae, used in the article which uses the Latin name. He also printed French music and in some of these works a French form of his name was used. Even in those the French version is not necessarily Pierre Phalèse as the alternate 'Pierre de Paleys' is used in Des chansons reductz en tabulature de lut a deux, trois et quatre parties. One of the reasons why the The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians uses the French form of the Flemish name is that this reference work goes back to the 19th century when Flemish names were often Frenchified in scientific publications. One of the authors of The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians article, Henri Vanhulst, predominantly uses the latinised version of the name in his otber publications about the Phalesius press (most of which are written in the Dutch language).

Here are some of the English language sources using the latinised name:

• Rudolf Rasch, Music Publishing in Europe 1600-1900: Concepts and Issues Bibliography, BWV Verlag, 2005
• Rudolf Rasch , The circulation of music in Europe 1600-1900: a collection of essays and case studies, Berliner Wissenschafts-Verlag, 2008
• Jolande van der Klis, The Essential Guide to Dutch Music: 100 Composers and Their Work, Amsterdam University Press, 1 Jan 2000
• Albert Clement, Eric Jas, From Ciconia to Sweelinck: Donum Natalicium Willem Elders, Rodopi, 1994* Daniel Heartz, "Au pres de vous", Claudin's Chanson and the Commerce of Publishers' Arrangements. Journal of the American Musicological Society, Vol. 24, No. 2 (Summer, 1971), pp. 193-225
• Ernst Crous, Giuseppe Fumagalli, Charles Mortet, Maurits Sabbe, James Patrick Ronaldson Lyell, Henry Robert Plomer, Lauritz Martin Nielsen, Leonard Cyril, Printing, a short history of the art, Grafton & Co., 1927
• Jacob Bathen, printer, publisher and bookseller in Louvain, Maastricht and Düsseldorf c. 1545 to c. 1557 in Quaerendo, Volume 19: Issue 1-2, BRILL
• Joel Flegler , Fanfare, Volume 17, Issue 4, J. Flegler, 1994
• Quarterly Journal of Current Acquisitions, Volumes 5-6, Library of Congress 1948
• John Denison Champlin, William Foster Apthorp, Cyclopedia of Music and Musicians, C. Scribner's Son
• Louis Dean Nuernberger, The five voice madrigals of Cipriano de Rore, Volume 1, Cipriano de Rore University of Michigan, 1963. Paklao (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Very well, if you wish to have a competition, I am happy to oblige. Here are a few English-language sources that use the French form of the name:

• Barbieri, Patrizio. "Music-Selling in Seventeenth-century Rome: Three New Inventories from Franzini's Bookshops 1621, 1633, 1686". Recercare 23, Nos. 1/2 (2011): 131–73.
• Brennan, Michael G. "Sir Charles Somerset's Music Books (1622)". Music & Letters 74, No. 4 (Nov. 1993): 501–518.
• Cienniwa, Paul. "Feast of the Gods". Early Music 35, No. 4 (November 2007): 677–79.
• Dobbins, Frank. "Lassus: Borrower or Lender: The Chansons". Revue belge de Musicologie / Belgisch Tijdschrift voor Muziekwetenschap 39/40 (1985/1986): 101–57.
• Ferer, Mary Tiffany. Music and Ceremony at the Court of Charles V: The Capilla Flamenca and the Art of Political Promotion. Boydell & Brewer, Boydell Press. (2012)
• Forney, Kristine K. European Music, 1520–1640. Boydell and Brewer, Boydell Press (2006).
• Fromson, Michèle. "The Sixteenth-Century Motet: An Update on Published Catalogues and Indexes in Progress". Notes, Second Series 52, No. 1 (September 1995): 45–54.
• Groot, Simon. "Petit Jan de Latre in Amersfoort: A New Look at His Biography". Tijdschrift van de Koninklijke Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis 63, Nos. 1/2 (2013): 65-85.
• Groot, Simon. "The "Cinquante Pseaumes de David" (Heidelberg 1597): An Issue of Protestant Psalms with Music by Orlandus Lassus and Others". Tijdschrift van de Koninklijke Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis 66, Nos. 1/2 (2016): 62–104.
• Gross, Anne Tatnall. "A Musicological Puzzle: Scrambled Editions of the Phalèse "Livre Septième" in Two London Libraries". Fontes Artis Musicae, 40, No. 4 (October-December 1993): 283–313.
• Ham, Martin. "The Stonyhurst College Partbooks, the Madrigal Society, and a Diplomatic Gift To Edward VI". Tijdschrift van de Koninklijke Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis 63, No. 1/2 (2013), pp. 3-64
• Hammond, Susan Lewis. "Pierre Phalèse as Music Editor: The Madrigal Anthology Musica divina (1583)". Fontes Artis Musicae 51, No. 1, Papers from the "Legacies: 500 Years of Printed Music" Conference, Denton, Texas, September 2001, and from the International Musicological Society Conference, Louvain, 2002 (January–March 2004): 93–110.
• Jas, Eric. Piety and Polyphony in Sixteenth-Century Holland: The Choirbooks of St Peter's Church, Leiden. Boydell and Brewer, Boydell Press (2018).
• Melamed, Daniel R. "Who Wrote Lassus's Most Famous Piece?" Early Music 26, No. 1 (February 1998): 6–22+25–26.
• Murray, Tessa. Thomas Morley: Elizabethan Music Publisher. Boydell & Brewer, Boydell Press. (2014)
• Pike, Lionel. "The First English ‘Basso Continuo’ Publication". Music & Letters 54, No. 3 (July 1973): 326–34.
• Pike, Lionel. "New Palestrina Sources". The Musical Times 117, No. 1602 (August 1976): 685–88.
• Plamenac, Dragan. "Music Libraries in Eastern Europe: A Visit in the Summer of 1961 (Part II)". Notes, Second Series 19, No. 3 (June 1962): 411–20.
• Reichart, Sarah. "Music for the Renaissance Allemande". Dance Chronicle 8, Nos. 3/4 (1985): 211–18.
• Scott, David. "Nicholas Yonge and His Transalpine Music". The Musical Times 116, No. 1592 (October 1975): 875–76.
• Searle, Arthur. "Manuscripts and Printed Books". Early Music 13, No. 2, J. S. Bach Tercentenary Issue (May 1985): 267–68.
• Trotter, Robert Moore. "The Chansons of Thomas Crecquillon: Texts and Form". Revue belge de Musicologie / Belgisch Tijdschrift voor Muziekwetenschap 14, Nos. 1/4 (1960): 56–71.
• Vanhulst, Henri. "A Fragment of a Lost Lutebook Printed by Phalese (Louvain, c1575)". Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis 40, No. 2 (1990): 57–80.
• Verbeke, Demmy, and Michiel Verweij. "Notes on Christophorus and Iohannes Vladeraccus". Humanistica Lovaniensia 54 (2005), pp. 365–69.
• Weigand, George A. "The Cittern Repertoire". Early Music 1, No. 2 (April 1973): 81–83.

I get 715 hits on JSTOR for the French form. About half are French-language items, most of the rest are in English. These items are from the first three pages of twenty-nine (75 entries of the 715).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Where did I state I wanted a competition ? Paklao (talk) 01:27, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

You offered evidence in support of the Latinised form of the name being predominant in English-language sources, but without any data on the relative frequency of use of the French form. It seemed only fair to present the other side of the case.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

But not fair to accuse me of something I was not guilty of Paklao (talk) 03:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh, yes? And what was that?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with the Latinized name. Can't we ask for a consensus? I suppose there are too few people interested... Nick Michael (talk) 09:30, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

In case it is not already clear, I, too, am not in favor of using the Latinized form of the name, principally on the guideline at WP:COMMONNAME. Despite User:Paklao's claims, it is plain that English-language sources most often use the French form of the name, so the article title should be reverted to that form. Given that there seems to be just the three of us involved, all that is necessary to achieve consensus is for Paklao to concede this point. Failing that, we can formally propose the reversion and see if that attracts more opinions.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Paklao appears to be a careful editor, but looking at his/her edit history (her/his User Talk page has been blanked) I don't get the impression s/he will join us on this point. I think most musicians/musicologists would agree that the French form is more appropriate here, and I would certainly propose the reversion, if I knew how to go about it... Nick Michael (talk) 08:33, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The procedure is found at WP:RM#CM, but let us first ask User:Paklao to reconsider, since that would be the easiest option. If Paklao continues to insist on the Latinized name, then we can go ahead with a (potentially tiresome) debate.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• There are enough citations to demonstrate that both versions are in common use, so my suggestion would be to leave things how they are rather than seek disruptive confrontations with productive editors. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2019 (UTC)