Talk:Philippa York

Recent changes

I have made the page a little more attractive (i think) and added Millar's Palmares. I also added some images I have of Robert riding.

--Chisa12345 21:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My recollection was that Millar was 2nd to Steve Lawrence in the British road race championships in 1978 (not first). The next year was a repeat 2 man breakaway but this time Millar got the better of Lawrence. When asked how he out sprinted the better sprinter he said something along the lines that he pummeled him before the finish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.188.138.158 (talk) 19:07, June 12, 2007

Hi,

The thing about none of Robert's teammates knowing about Robert's wedding or the fact he even had a gilrfriend is preposterous. Sylvie is actually Pascal Simon's sister in law so there were many, many articles in the French press (L'Equipe, Velo magazine) mentioning this as early as 1983... The whole cycling scene knew that Robert was dating Pascal's sister in law... Phil Anderson's comment is but a cheap joke that shouldn't be in the middle of a Wikipedia article.

Phillipa York

Would anyone mind if I deleted the "today known as Phillipa York" part? I don't think tabloids are the most reliable sources. I mean...as far as I know, bat boy doesn't exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.72.53.76 (talk) 04:49, July 9, 2007

In the book "In Search of Robert Millar" it is obvious that talk of Robert being a woman was taken out of context. Somebody created a false rumour and reporters mentioned it to former friends of Robert. At the time, they leapt to his defence by saying, IF it was true then they wouldn't care. This has since been used as evidence that he was a woman. It is known that Robert is not a woman and has been seen many times (since his so-called disappearance). He may have long hair and gained a little upper body fat for the Tae Kwon Do he now takes part in but that does not make him a woman. So all the Robert Millar haters can find someone else to put down. The only Phillipa in Robert's life is his DAUGHTER.

While the Daily Mail article itself seems to have been taken off the site, the photo of Robert Millar and the woman it is claimed that he has become remains on the Daily Mail website [1]. --Timtak (talk) 02:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

A very poor use of PhotoShop. There is a photo in the book that is said to have started the scurrilous rumours but it does not look a bit like that faked photo. The photo in the books shows Robert with long hair but having put some weight on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.Racklever (talk) 09:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

All a load of bollocks, dreamed up by some Spaniards to put down Robert for attempting to win La Vuelta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 21:51, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Latest news on transition to Philippa York http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/a-statement-from-cyclingnews-contributor-philippa-york/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.245.48.81 (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, Philippa York has never competed as a professional cyclist, and as such has never figured in the start or finish lists of any professional cycling competitions. The insistance of certain users to retroactiviely apply York's identity to the racing career of Robert Millar is, while surely well-intentioned, misleading and factually incorrect at best, and would appear to contradict York's own perspective on her transition:

"Asked how she has dealt in recent years with the fact that the world of cycling had one image of her and she had another, York says: “I can only deal with that by putting the Robert part of my life into one box and the life I live now into another.

“What I did before wasn’t done by the person I am now so it’s not a case of changing history. I think for most people looking at this from the outside that’s the easiest way for them to process it. That’s my opinion – others may disagree and that’s fine.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/06/philippa-york-gender-transition-cyclist-robert-millar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.4.33.5 (talk) 14:24, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Per MOS:GENDERID, for trans people we use the pronouns and other gendered words corresponding to the latest expressed gender identity throughout the article. Funcrunch (talk) 15:25, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

That seems to me to be a misreading of MOS:GENDERID. It states that the most up to date sources should be used. In this case the most up to date sources probably suggest the compartmentalisation above. It then goes on to say that the latest designation should be used when a person's gender identity might be questioned - I don't think anyone's questioning it in this case, they're explicitly acknowledging that there was a Robert era and now there's a different era. In any event the latter policy says "This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise" - surely the above represents "a preference otherwise"? 90.193.66.90 (talk) 22:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not at all happy with the way that this article handles Millar's transition to York. It reads as an awkwardly worded attempt to be respectful of Millar's choice to transition, while achieving the effect of making the transition the sole focus of the page, somewhat detracting from the achievements of Millar, and the latter choice to transition to York. York herself had stated that she see's her time as Millar as attributable to Millar. I think that in general the editorial policy towards trans issues would be more respectful if it made less of a big deal of then. EspressoDan (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

First winner

Millar was the first British winner of a classification in a major tour (Giro, Tour, Vuelta) and not the only winner. Malcolm Elliott won the points jersey in the tour of spain circa 1990. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barry Roubaix (talk • contribs) 11:53, July 12, 2007.

Elliott won the first stage of La Vuelta and had the points jersey for one stage. Elliott did not "win" the jersey ie. held it after the tour had ended. By your logic Barry Hoban was the first to "win" the green jersey in the Tour de France. No he did not. He held it. Mark Cavendish was the first to win the green jersey in the Tour de France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 10:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The first comment is corrct - Elliott won the points jersey in the 1989 Vuelta- see 1989 Vuelta a España. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Missing image?

There's a comment "Millar (right) with Laurent Fignon" at the top of the infobox which seems to imply an image that is no longer present. Can anyone please sort this out...?

--R J Sutherland 18:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Done Severo^TC 18:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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WP:NAMECHANGE WP:NAMECHANGES

Per that policy, the article should still be at the name under which the subject gained notability. If her journalistic career ever outreaches her cycling career in notability, a move is appropriate, otherwise it is the name by which she gained fame, rather than the name that she chooses to use now, that best serves readers. Kevin McE (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you meant some other policy as WP:NAMECHANGE refers to Wikipedia usernames. Regardless, this is a transgender woman and as with Caitlyn Jenner, who gained notability as an athlete under her previous name, the rename to Philippa York should be restored with a redirect from Robert Millar, her previous name. With the redirect and ample mentions of her previous name and identity in the article, there should be no confusion. Funcrunch (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree, we have done this in countless other instances where transgender people change from one gender to another, so it should be restored. This is Paul (talk) 19:43, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Apologies: I missed a letter from the policy that I linked to. It is WP:NAMECHANGES. Kevin McE (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

So given the above, and that everyone in cycling knows who Pippa York is, why is this article still titled Robert Millar? I propose changing the title to Pippa York in 24 hours. Any objections? Dan100 (Talk) 12:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC) Dan100 (Talk) 12:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Probably better to let someone uninvolved (i.e., who hasn't commented below) assess consensus and make any change. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 14:26, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus that reliable sources are predominantly using her new name, and that MOS:GENDERID applies as well.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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Robert Millar → Philippa York – I am proposing this move because the subject has undergone gender reassignment and recently announced that they wish to be known by a different name, i.e., that they wish to assume a female identity. The article was moved to Philippa York earlier today, but has since been moved back with WP:NAMECHANGE cited as the reason for doing so. As there is a precedent for moving these articles (see, for example, Stephanie Hirst, Chelsea Manning, Kellie Maloney and Caitlyn Jenner) then there should be no drama about moving this article as well. However, I'm making this request because of the move history. This is Paul (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar, as is standard across Wikipedia for biographies of trans people. Per MOS:GENDERID we need to give precedence to the most recent expressed gender identification. Funcrunch (talk) 21:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar. possible inclusion of Birthname in info box. Dimspace (talk) 22:54, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support moving back to Philippa York. MOS:GENDERID applies; information page cited in move revert does not. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 02:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Please explain why GENDERID, a subsection within the vocabulary section of the Manual of Style, applies to Article titles. The boilerplate above says "Please base arguments on article title policy": GENDERID is not part of that, NAMECHANGES is. Kevin McE (talk) 10:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

From MOS section on article titles: "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS...applies to all parts of an article, including the title." GENDERID provides explicit guidance for specific instances such as this one; the article title policy does not. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:09, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:GENDERID. EternalNomad (talk) 04:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NAMECHANGES (with apologies for having accidentally cited a different policy while meaning to refer to this one yesterday).

"Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, the COMMONNAME section of this page still applies": the COMMONNAME by which this individual is notable is still Millar.

"...but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced": it might be that in future a generous assessment of her journalism career will make a change suitable, although I for one doubt that, unless a lot of extra weight is given.

"If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, per COMMONNAME": I do not expect people writing about the history of stage racing in the 1980s to start applying the name York to the performances, nor do I expect York as a journalist to draw attention to herself rather that to the subjects of her articles.

"Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We do not know what terms or names will be used in the future, but only what is and has been in use, and is therefore familiar to our readers ": Millar is the name familiar to our readers.

"if the subject of an article has a name change, it is reasonable to consider the usage following the change in reliable, English language sources": I do not think that, beyond the flurry of interest this weekend, that reliable English language sources will contonue to talk about York much at all. Indeed, if they are respectful of her choice, they will probably have nothing to talk about in reference to her, any more so than we read articles about, rather than by, William Fotheringham or Daniel Benson.

MOS:Genderid is a subsection of the vocabulary section of the Manual of Style; WP:namechanges is part of the policy WP:Article titles. The boilerplate above determines the policy that is relevant. Kevin McE (talk) 10:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Is to change all the names in the article, from Millar to York, necessary? I mean, York did not run any Vuelta or Tour de France, while all his/her career was comlpeted as Robert Millar. And his name remains as "Millar" in all the Vuelta and Tour articles. Asturkian (talk) 12:14, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Now that is where MoS:Genderid is relevant, but this discussion is about the article title. Kevin McE (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

It says to use her gender where gender is necessary but is ambiguous about other names. Peter James (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Well, about the title I oppose, as you said, per WP:COMMONNAME. More than the 90% of the people would find this article by typing "Robert Millar" or by links from cycling articles. Asturkian (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support According to Wikipedia:Article titles, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". "Robert Millar" now seems to be inaccurate except in historical context. Peter James (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

The historical context is precisely where the subject has notability, not the present, and now abandoned is not the same as inaccurate. WP:NAMECHANGES suggests weighting in favour of the more recent in considering the balance of uses of the name in reliable sources, it does not prescribe totally ignoring historical use. As I suggest above, it is possible, but not (IMO) likely, that her notability as a reporter might one day justify moving the article, but it does not yet. Kevin McE (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support (as original mover) move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar, this reflects best and most consistent practice. No Swan So Fine (talk) 11:39, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia is over 16 years old and in that time, attitudes towards gender reassignment have continued to evolve. Recent practice on several other articles has been to rename, and this also follows common sense. We are not bound to slavishly follow WP:NAMECHANGES, and note that WP:COMMONNAME's use of the phrase that the most common name is "generally preferred". My suggestion is that this is a case where the 'generally' might not work. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support The subject of the article, while achieving fame under one name, has asked that they be referred to NOW by another name, a name that reflects their identity. We should respect that wish. I must say that the text today (11th July 2017) reads very well, very respectful, not hiding controversy, but giving depth. Well done Brunswicknic (talk) 13:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support While dealing with name changes like this without new mention of the subject might be a concern in the future, I think York has had plenty of coverage to support the name change: The Guardian, The Tndependent, The Telegraph, and BBC. I think that satisfies "If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." menaechmi (talk) 18:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's too soon at best. We follow usage in reliable sources, and I would not include sources to pieces about the name change. I see no evidence of any current reliable sources published about this person (besides the name change) which we can even follow. So, for now, we have go with older sources. The situation is very similar to that of Cat Stevens who changed his name for religious reasons rather than gender change, but the same underlying principles about following usage in reliable sources applies. I will add that it appears that the person who now goes by Philippa York is only notable for who she was as Robert Millar. --В²C ☎ 01:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Philippa York is, right at this very moment, on ITV 4 as a cycling expert because of her earlier career. Philippa York is Robert Millar; she is not notable for who she was as Robert Millar. She has undergone a gender change and wishes to be known by her new name. With various precedents for others who have done this, I see no reason why this page can't be moved (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar. DJDonegal (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Everyone who follows cycling knows who Philippa York is, and has complete respect for her decision. As mentioned above she's given interviews on television; there's no ambiguity or doubt over her name. The article should be titled correctly. Dan100 (Talk) 12:35, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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References to orientation

This is absolutely not a judgemental or critical comment, but shouldn't the gender references to Philippa be masculine when discussing the period before her transition? Obscurasky (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was thinking as well: he was a male rider and called "Robert Millar" at the time, riding with only other males, hence! Extremely sexy (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I am of the same opinion. I was rather shocked at first when I came back to read this biography having last read it when it was about Robert Millar. It is very confusing to read the cycling career of a legend of the mens' cycling sport being referred to as 'York' and 'she'. I am very happy that Millar has now found her true identity as a woman but it makes the biography very confusing by re-writing the whole entry as a woman when the achievements are in men's sport. It reads as though a woman has done all these achievements and so one assumes it is in women's sport or that a woman has achieved these results in men's sport. I understand that any criticism of this radical change leaves the critic wide open to being called all sorts of names. If the entry is to make any sense to a reader who looked up 'Robert Millar' and didn't know about the gender change (announced around 2017 but started 2007 and possibly earlier than 2000) then they would be very confused. A woman would not be allowed to race in men's professional cycle racing. At the time of the events the person was born a man and christened Robert Millar. If the new world order is so powerful that this is the way history has to be re-written then the opening paragraph has to be more upfront and state explicitly that Philippa was born a man and that 'her' cycling career was as a man and that he had gender reassignment and became a woman long after this career was over. I understand the forces who have made these rigid changes but I ask you, if the Queen was to reassign herself to a man would every history book have to be re-written as the 'King', 'he', and 'his'?

To most of the people who come to Philippa's biography it is Robert Millar's cycling exploits they wish to read about and to read 'she' for one of Britain's greatest male cyclists who was known the world over as 'King of the mountains' just seems wrong. What the biography doesn't mention is that 'she' was born a man, lived as a man, competed as a man, married a woman and had a son with her. Philippa was not just 'formerly known as Robert Millar', she was a man and nowhere in the entry does it mention the gender reassignment to explain why 'he' is now a 'she'. In 2002 he was working with the Scottish Commonwealth Games squad and after a training ride he pulled off his shirt and obviously did not have women's breasts so perhaps the cycling part could be written as Millar and the later life as a woman.

Philippa's cycling achievements must still be recorded as 'Robert Millar' because no woman could be on the men's results records, hence the 1984 Tour de France King of the mountains is still 'Robert Millar'.

Finally, this blog entry I have referenced was written by a fellow Scot, cyclist and friend of Philippa's, please take time to have a look at it and the photos and realise that this piece of cycling literary history would be ruined if the 'correctness' rules of Wikipedia was applied to it:. Andrew ranfurly (talk) 22:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

References

I totally agree with this comment. Also saying "she" had a girlfriend and married her in the 1980's is nonsensical as well, since of course two women couldn't marry back then. To me it would much better for the past to be in the name and gender of Robert Millar, with maybe part of the article mentioning he was struggling with his identity, if there are sources for that, then the more contemporary part of the article can be written with his/her new name and gender. Aesma (talk) 07:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Likewise, I support the comments above. Aspects of the article as it currently exists are clearly nonsensical and make a mockery of any claims that the article provides a sensible, factual record of the subject in question. It is entirely possible to discuss the two identities in a clear and unambiguous manner as can be seen by the series of articles written by David Walsh in the Times. These are unfortunately behind a paywall but the fact that he has written them referring to Pippa for the present person and Robert as the racer of old, all with Pippa as his passenger, should demonstrate that such a format is acceptable.Stroness (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

References

I have come across this official Wikipedia policy for such situations. I'm not sure I completely agree, but it states the current format is correct and therefore the article should not be changed - although it could do with a tidy up I think. MOS:GENDERID Obscurasky (talk) 09:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Gender changing operation

When exactly did (s)he change from a male to a female: in or before last year, being 2017? Extremely sexy (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

It is not possible to change one's gender, because that attribute is encoded in the chromosomes and so every single cell in the human body would have to be manipulated to castrate a male into a female or augment a female to grow a member and become a weaponed man. The lgbtqpra movement is merely trying to handwave around that obstacle, but that are being shot down in more and more countries, e.g. here in Hungary it was recently written into the constitution straight that father is a chromosomal male and mother is a chromosomal female and George Soros' CEU university preaching "gender = social sex" ideology was summarily booted from the country. 94.21.160.121 (talk) 17:32, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

The actions of a far-right government in Hungary are of zero relevance here. You are not being helpful.Effy Midwinter (talk) 23:12, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Surname

How could (s)he change this from "Millar" into "York", in doing so completely erasing the past? Extremely sexy (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

"In the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, citizens and residents have the freedom to change their names with relative ease. In theory, anyone who is at least 16 and resident in the United Kingdom can call themselves whatever they wish." (From Name change#United Kingdom). Blurryman (talk) 22:09, 29 July 2018 (UTC)