Talk:Philippine Idol/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Top 12 Finalists Articles

Just to inform everyone that I'll be starting to create own wikipedia articles for the top 12 finalists just like those in the American Idol and Canadian Idol shows. I will be using the Philippine Idol Offical Website contestant bios as basis for each article. I am willing to create all of them though I am requesting anyone kind enough to help me finish the work. Hope to finish it before the formal round of the finals start which is on Saturday. The Green Archer 15:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Howard already said above that there should be no articles about the contestants until the final 2. Did you tell him about your intentions? - 上村七美 | talk 15:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't informed him yet, though I have made 6 of the 12 articles already, just tell me when to stop. I started it since I figured that the contestants names were in red link text, not in plain text, indicating the creation of articles. The Green Archer 16:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you better stop now and tell what you have done to Howard first. You may only continue if you have his consent. He already this before:

“ Just like what was done at the Pinoy Big Brother housemates, no articles should be created. Any new articles created will be redirected here. Probably the final 2 contestants will have one. ”

- 上村七美 | talk 16:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Actaully I'd be willing to allow their creation since several other Idol programs have their individual contestants articles. I dunno if other Wikipedians may allow it, but we can cite American Idol as an example. You may also inform the Idols wikiproject (the link is at the banner above. ^^^^). --Howard the Duck 03:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So all the 12 finalists now have their own article. Can anyone here upload pics for each of them? - Yael

Pics coming from the website aren't allowed in Wikipedia as they won't fit {{promotional}}. Either somebody screencaps from their TVs or takes photos at the venue and releases them via the GFDL or place them at the public domain. I will list any uploaded pic from the website at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images.

Also, I've created Category:Philippine Idol contestants. Be sure to add this when anybody edits the article. And the article needs to be edited for NPOV and to lessen its fancruftiness.

If someone nominates any of the new articles for deletion, I will not hesitate to say delete, but the nomination won't come from me, as of now. --Howard the Duck 14:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it okay if I upload some screencaps of the finalists on their respective articles? I'm planning on doing that this weekend.Starczamora 14:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's OK. Just tag it with {{tv-screenshot}}. User:OrphanBot can be sneaky, you know. --Howard the Duck 15:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I already placed a modified pic for each of the article. Though, Starczamora, feel free to change them if you think your screencaps are better. - The Green Archer

I'm now seriously thinking of redirect all of the contestant articles here. They are all known for the program, and seriously, the articles look like a copy-paste from the original website, let's just link the official website pages instead. --Howard the Duck 15:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey there. I've restarted the article for Mau Marcelo. --Mercurio 03:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Table/Chart For Finals

I think we need to make a elimination chart/table starting this upcoming finals week. I was thinking about emulating the one in the Rockstar Supernova wiki page (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Star:_Supernova#Elimination_chart) except remove the Encore Performance and Special Performance which leaves us with the Bottom Three and Eliminated Contestant. I think this table is systematic enough for the Philippine Idol article. Is there anyone here skilled enough to make or modify such table/chart for our Philippine Idol page? --The Green Archer

Are you really Green Archer? You're logged as an IP. With the table, we'd just be expanding the table found at "Results summary", at par with American Idol (Season 2). --Howard the Duck 16:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Results Table

Legend

Boys

Girls

Bottom Three

Eliminated

Theme:		OPM	TBA	TBA	TBA
Date:		9/30	10/6	10/13	10/20
Place	Contestant	Result
	Drae Ybañez
	Gian Magdangal
	Jan Nieto
	Ken Dingle
	Mig Mendoza
	Reymond Sajor
	Apple Chiu
	Arms Cruz
	Jeli Mateo
	Mau Marcelo
	Pow Chavez
	Stef Lazaro

MADE BY THE GREEN ARCHER

It took me long enough to finish the table above. You guys think it's okay? If yes, we can copy-paste this in the main article right? -- The Green Archer

This looks OK to me Starczamora 18:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, we should follow the American Idol (previous black and white format) table, not the Rock Star table.

Other comments:

• Dividing into boys and girls is immaterial now; unless Philippine Idol ruled that elimination is by sex.
• Themes instead of week number will stretch the table. This will look bad on monitors with 800x600 resolutions.

--Howard the Duck 05:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone align the table to center mode in the main article? - JR

I suggest we'd keep at left aligned. This is an encyclopedia article, not a fancy fansite.

Also, after seeing the article the table was replaced without consensus. I'll be reverting it until consensus is reached that we used The Green Archer's table. --Howard the Duck 06:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've removed excessive colors in the table. Nanami changed the eliminated into red (in which I agree), I changed the bottom three color into orange, and cut down on the weeks (we are not sure of future events, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and changed themes into week number, imagine if the theme was "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire songs", that'll streeeeeeeeeeecth the table (that's why I'd like the previous table, we can use line breaks just in case). --Howard the Duck 06:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Bottom three

there were no bottom three on Week 1. What should we do? I think we should keep the blue notes on the three called because they were announced as the bottom three at the time of the telecast. --Howard the Duck 09:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone placed the reason that it was a "random decision" but it was a copyvio so I edited it. It was from the Manila Bulletin website. (I wondered why the Philippine Star never covered anything about the show.) - 上村七美 | talk 10:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the MB othe only one reporting this. even though, I still think the "bottom 3" should still be colored blue. --Howard the Duck 10:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the Inquirer will take note of that in the coming days. The Inquirer always covers the show; it so happened MB picked it up first. - 上村七美 | talk 10:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I'll wait for PDI. --Howard the Duck 11:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Another source: http://www.malaya.com.ph/oct05/ente1.htm - Malaya Newspaper, October 5, 2006 Issue

"Director for Creative and Entertainment Production Perci Intalan also clarified that the three girls who stayed on stage – Arms Cruz, Jelli Mateo and Maureen Marcelo – were not the bottom three. "We were not allowed to announce who the bottom three were because the votes will be carried over next week and it might affect the voting if people know who the bottom three were."

So, I think with sufficient sources,we can already conclude that there is no bottom three in the first week. The Green Archer 09:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, how about adding asterisks to the "bottom three" for week one to indicate that they were announced as the bottom 3? --Howard the Duck 14:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

R&B/Soul Week Complete Song Listing

I just planned to post this just for quick reference when we edit the article later at night after the show airs. Anyways, the song choices are already confirmed.

APPLE - Natural Woman (Aretha Franklin)

DRAE - You’re Still A Young Man (Tower of Power)

REYMOND - I’d Rather (Luther Vandross)

MAU - Crazy In Love (Beyonce Knowles)

JELI - Always Be My Baby (Mariah Carey)

JAN - Could It Be I’m Falling In Love (The Spinners)

ARMS - Respect (Aretha Franklin)

GIAN - I Feel Good (James Brown)

STEF - Proud Mary (Tina Turner)

KEN - What’s Going On (Marvin Gaye)

POW - You Got It Bad (Usher)

MIGUEL - Let’s Stay Together (Al Green)

Sources:

http://philippineidol2006.blogspot.com/2006/10/complete-soul-and-r-n-b-week-song.html http://www.abc.com.ph/forums/viewthread.php?tid=920

The Green Archer 09:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Theme 3: Metropop Songs

just got home from watching the show live!!!I was eavesdropping from the staff of the show,

NEXT week will be METROPOP WEEK!!! And i heard MAU's song will be a POWERFUL ONE...I know the title, but i'll keep it for confirmation first...hehehe

and i learned that during the first round, it wasn't MAU nor ARMS in the bottom, and the one with the lowest votes is...BRACE YOURSELVES...G_I_A_N!!!

Unbelievable, thank God they postponed it, however, i wasn't happy to see STEF and DRAE go because they were two of the best performers last nyt...It should have been JEli or Miguel...

But still, support MAU!!! -Khakheko

An Interesting Read

See: http://www.abc.com.ph/forums/viewthread.php?tid=1027 - Dr. John28

Unless a major daily picks this up, this will just be a rumor. --Howard the Duck 10:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though isn't the writer of the article ABC 5 newscaster Jove Francisco credible enough? He himself wrote the article in his blog. - Dr. John28

He's just a newscaster. I learned in my class while pursuing my journalism degree in UST that you should ask someone in the higher stratus first, even the network itself or the producers. So I agree with Howard. - 上村七美 | talk 12:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

And this like a press release, the thing is it is signed. It's like Mike Enriquez writing a piece about Atlantika. Also, the message board as a reliable source of information is suspect, that's why I'm waiting for a major daily to break this story. --Howard the Duck 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2006/10/11/ENTR2006101176707.html, it should be added in the controversies section, in my opinion. - The Green Archer

Metropop Week Complete Song Listing

It's already confirmed. For quick reference when editing:

Apple Chiu - Sometimes You Just Know (Jaya Ramsey)

Arms Cruz - Anak (Freddie Aguilar)

Gian Magdangal- Give Me A Chance (Ric Segreto)

Jan Nieto - Umagang Kay Ganda (New Minstrels)

Jeli Mateo - Isang Mundo, Isang Awit (Leah Navarro)

Ken Dingle - Magsimula Ka (Leo Valdes)

Mau Marcelo - Ako Ang Nasawi, Ako Ang Nagwagi (Dulce)

Mig Mendoza - Suwerte Suwerte Lang (Joel Navarro)

Pow Chavez - Till I Met You (Kuh Ledesma)

Reymond Sajor - Be My Lady (Pedritto Montaire)

- The Green Archer—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.183.225 (talk • contribs)

If you really are The Green Archer, please log in. We may never recognize you with your anon IP edits. - 上村七美 | talk 15:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Are you really him? Please sign in if you post again. Impersonation is bad. --Howard the Duck 15:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It really is me, just lazy to log in because my keyboard is malfunctioning, and takes too long, sorry. The Green Archer 15:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Next time when you log on, check the "Remember me" option so the next time you're here, you'll automatically be logged in. Only works in our respective computers. - 上村七美 | talk 16:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It really is me, just lazy to log in because my keyboard is malfunctioning, and takes too long, sorry. The Green Archer 15:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Logging in has many benefits, like seeing your watchlists and boosting your edit count. --Howard the Duck 16:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Philippine Idol Userbox

Did you know that Philippine Idol has a userbox? The code is {{User Idol series|Philippine}}. So far, I'm the only one who has this on the userpage. Care to put one? - 上村七美 | talk 03:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice find, I'll put one in my userpage as well. The Green Archer 06:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

This should be moved into the userspace before an admin spots this as per the German userbox soulution. --Howard the Duck

Chart

Which is better?

Weekly theme

• Top 12 (9/30) - Original Pilipino Music songs dedicated to special someones
• Top 12 (10/7) - Soul / R&B
• Top 10 (10/14) - Songs from the Metropop Song Festival

Guest judges

Results summary

Legend

Safe

Bottom 2/3/4

Eliminated

Week number:		*1	2
Performance date:		9/30	10/7
Elimination date:		10/1	10/8
Place	Contestant	Result
	Jan Kurt Nieto	Safe	Safe
	Ken Dingle	Safe	Safe
	Miguel Mendoza	Safe	Safe
	Reymond Sajor	Safe	Safe
	Apple Chiu	Safe	Safe
	Jeli Mateo	Safe*	Safe
	Arms Cruz	Safe*	Safe
	Mau Marcelo	Safe*	Safe
	Gian Magdangal	Safe	Btm 4
	Pow Chavez	Safe	Btm 4
11th	Drae Ybañez	Safe	Elim
12th	Stef Lazaro	Safe	Elim

Notes:
Week 1: No contestants were eliminated on Week 1, due to disrupted telephone and mobile phone services in many areas in Luzon caused by Typhoon Milenyo. In that weekend's results show, the finalists still went through the scare of the familiar elimination routine. Agoncillo randomly chose Mau Marcelo, Jeli Mateo and Armarie Cruz as the "bottom three" before announcing that no one will be eliminated. The reason he did so was because there were no official results at all to be announced to the public, according to sources from the network; the votes were not yet counted at the time.

Director for Creative and Entertainment Production Perci Intalan also clarified that the three girls who stayed on stage were not the bottom three. Intalan said, "We were not allowed to announce who the bottom three were because the votes will be carried over next week and it might affect the voting if people know who the bottom three were."

Week 2: As consolation for the previous week, when no one was eliminated, two contenders were eliminated in the same week.

Results summary

Date	Theme	Guest judge(s)
September 30	Original Pilipino Music		No eliminations
Date	Theme	Guest judge(s)	Bottom four
October 7	Soul and R&B		Stef Lazaro	Drae Ybañez	Pow Chavez	Gian Magdangal
Date	Theme	Guest judge(s)	Bottom three
October 14	Metropop Song Festival	Hajji Alejandro	TBD	TBD	TBD

--Howard the Duck 14:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I prefer to choose the first one and keep it as it is. Honestly, I have trouble analyzing the second table. The Green Archer 13:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

After pointing that out, and with several elimination nights where no eliminations occurred, table 1 maybe better. But the other Idol series use the black and gray format; I'd recommend we change all of them (not all utilize very detailed results - other just list the dates of elimination). --Howard the Duck 14:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Pinoy Rock Week Complete Song Listing

This is confirmed, for easy editing of the article:

• Harana - Parokya ni Edgar (MIGUEL)

• Wag na Wag Mong Sasabihin - Kitchie Nadal (APPLE)

• Ligaya - Eraserheads (KEN)

• Makita Kang Muli - Spongecola (ARMS)

• Paglisan - Color It Red (JELI)

• Pare Ko - Eraserheads (GIAN)

• So Slow - Freestyle (MAU)

• Tuloy Pa Rin - Neocolors (JAN)

• Forevermore - Side A/Regine Velasquez (POW)

The Green Archer 13:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

To say that Freestyle is rock is like saying Britney is gangsta hahaha. --Howard the Duck 14:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

List of songs sung

Can we move those to the individual contestants' articles, while replacing them with an episode summary? We can use the official website. --Howard the Duck 14:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The American Idol articles don't do that. So, no, I don't think so. It should be better if the first season has its own article. - 上村七美 | talk 14:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The Carrie Underwood article used to have that, where all of the songs Carrie sang went into her article. Then we could have a summary on how the episode went, like what Mr. C said on Gian's performance, and on how Mamita teased Ryan, etc.

And splitting off the article into the season one would be difficult - which would be retained here and which would be added to the new article when they're basically identical. I'd rather see an article about Heart's program. --Howard the Duck 14:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"Song of My Life" Week Complete Song Listing

It's confirmed. For easy editing of the article:

• MAU - I Will Always Love You (Whitney Houston)
• JELI - You Don't Know Me (Ray Charles/Diana Krall)
• JAN - Kailangan Kita (Gary Valenciano)
• MIGUEL - Sandra (Barry Manilow)
• ARMS - If I Believed (Patti Austin)
• APPLE - Someone To Watch Over Me (Ella Fitzgerald/George Gershwin)
• POW - For Once In My Life (Stevie Wonder/Spiral Starecase)
• KEN - Get Here (Oleta Adams)
• GIAN - Superstar (The Carpenters)

The Green Archer 15:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

We might as well removed Piolo there, and it's Spiral Starecase. --Howard the Duck 15:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't blame me, I just copied/pasted it from a source, hahaha. The Green Archer 15:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Better yet, we have to explain what "Song of My Life" is to the other readers. - 上村七美 | talk 10:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Take note on the corrections I made on the song list. I added and deleted some artists of the songs. Give special attention to the deletion of Piolo Pascual's name since your doubting his music talents, LOL. The Green Archer 12:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Lets mention who sang it first (the orig version). --Howard the Duck 12:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Position of Images/Pictures

Can we reposition the images/pictures in the main article because some of them are blocked by the hidden list or better yet we can remove some of the images which are not really needed? The Green Archer 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Lets just remove the hidden parts. It's a CSS hack, and the information there deserves to be seen, not hidden. --Howard the Duck 07:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Dance Music Week Song Listing

So far here are the confirmed songs:

MAU - "Shy Guy" (Diana King)

APPLE - "Lady Marmalade" (Patti Labelle)

GIAN - "Rock DJ" (Robbie Williams)

POW - "Got To Be Real" (Cheryl Lynn)

KEN - "Signed, Sealed, Delivered (I'm Yours)" (Stevie Wonder)

JAN - "Livin' La Vida Loca" (Ricky Martin)

Note:

According to my source, Miguel has yet to choose a song to this very moment that's why his song choice is not yet listed here. Trust me, I did my research. The Green Archer 15:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop making unsourced bios

Everyone, please stop making unsourced biographical articles about contestants on this show. We have to be extra careful with biographies of living people and the articles I've seen so far tend to be full of unsourced original research, which is absolutely not acceptable. See also WP:BIO standards for inclusion- just having been on television hardly qualifies. We can mention names of contestants in the main article- there's no need to split them out unless we have so much sourced information on them that it's no longer appropriate for the main article. By long tradition and consensus, people who are only significant for their involvement in one particular event should generally be mentioned in the article about that event, not a biographical article of their own. Friday (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You may redirect them here, if you want. --Howard the Duck 02:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I did on a few, but they were reverted. They've now been turned into Philippine Idol contestants which I'm not sure is an improvement, but it might make this content easier to manage having it in one place. I don't see that putting several unsourced bios into one article helps much, tho - the basic problems still remains. Friday (talk) 17:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll redirect them here myself. --Howard the Duck 02:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Movie Theme and Musical Theme Complete Song Listings

Confirmed songs: (The first one is their choice for the movie theme while the second one is for the musical/broadway)

MAU

- "Diamonds are Forever" (Shirley Bassey)

- "I’m Telling You" (Jennifer Holiday)

POW

- "So Far So Good" (Thornley)

- "I’d Give My Life For You" (Lea Salonga)

GIAN

- "Sana Ikaw na Nga" (Basil Valdez)

- "Greased Lightning" (John Travolta)

MIGUEL

- "Growing Up" (Gary Valenciano)

- "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" (Elton John)

JAN

- "Bakit Ngayon Ka Lang" (Ogie Alcasid)

- "Corner of the Sky" (Diana Ross)

The Green Archer 09:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Contestants' Table/Chart names

i dont think we need to put the whole name of the contestants on the chart. We should just put their nicknames just like the one on the American idol article. They just put the nickname of the contestant and the last name after it. The table of the PI contestants look messed up because of the long names that they put and the quotation marks. awesomeness 01:08, November 27 2006 (UTC)

I made the text size smaller now. --Howard the Duck 07:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Week 9

No one was at the bottom 2? I knew they're separated into 2 groups. Then the next time I'd channel surf, Miguel was eliminated. What happened? --Howard the Duck 05:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Kakaibang Idol Erratum?

Hi! I don't know how to go about this but to the editors, please change that part in Kakaibang Idol where it says something about someone singing Lara Fabian's version of "Broken Vow." It was clearly Josh Groban's version. "Tell he HIS name I want to know the way HE looks at [and?] where you go" is the male version. It's a little bit disturbing to read that part because the writer seems to assert that he is right and the (male) singer didn't know what he was doing! Thanks a lot and more power. - Charlie Brown —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.54.130.68 (talk • contribs) 09:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

The final arbiter for this is what PI told us what version he sang. --Howard the Duck 09:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Tell me HIS name I want to know the way HE looks and where he goes..." is by Lara Fabian, and it was Lara singing about a man (Josh Groban's version was about a woman, get it?). A man singing about a woman and a woman singing about a man, that's what Josh and Lara are, respectively. Charlie Brown seems to be asserting that he is right although he really doesn't know what he's talking about... Leoisiah (talk) 06:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Grand Finals Complete Song Listing

These songs are confirmed. Lets copy-paste them to the article after the show airs.

JAN

- "Sway" (Michael Buble) (JUDGES CHOICE)

- "Evergreen" (Westlife) (SONY BMG CHOICE)

- "Say That You Love Me" (Martin Nievera) (PERSONAL CHOICE)

GIAN

- "Volare (English:Fly)" (Domenico Modugno) (JUDGES CHOICE)

- "Flying Without Wings" (Westlife) (SONY BMG CHOICE)

- "The Impossible Dream" (Luther Vandross) (PERSONAL CHOICE)

MAU

- "Balut" (Pilita Corrales) (JUDGES CHOICE)

- "On My Own" (Whitney Houston) (SONY BMG CHOICE)

- "Love Takes Time" (Mariah Carey) (PERSONAL CHOICE)

The Green Archer 08:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd just want to emphasize, we're at Finals week 11, so that'll be the label we'll be using. --Howard the Duck 12:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

List of Week 11 results night guest performers:

1. Aiza Seguerra
2. Gary Valenciano
3. Hajji Alejandro --Howard the Duck 14:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Season 1 page

So.. how is this page going to look like now? Should we follow the American Idol page where you put SEASON 1.. then put the winner's picture under it with some infos about stuff? We should make a page for just the Philippine Idol season 1 and transfer the SEASON 1 stuff on that profile.. anglupet08 07:42, December 10 2006 (UTC)

Not yet. Until ABC announces they'll have a second season, season will still be here. Otherwise, we'll have the same thing on two pages. --Howard the Duck 03:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, since the GMA franchise is a lot different than the original, there should be separate Pinoy Idol article and a Philippine Idol articles. I'd be merging season 1 here and creating a new one. --Howard the Duck 14:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, go ahead. Then we'll try to figure out how to modify the Idol franchise pages that link to Philippine Idol, especially the template. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 15:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The template can easily be changed. As for other pages, I suggest not to change them if they're referring to the 2006 program. --Howard the Duck 15:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Mau Marcelo page

whoever is doing mau's page, pls add some stuff about her life on the profile.. YOu'll find infos here -->> http://www.philippineidol.com/features/features1206_4.html

anglupet08 3:43 pm

Creation of Jan Nieto page

Since Jan Nieto is already introduced in GMA as part of SOP, maybe we could make a wikipedia about him. Starczamora 13:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Featured article?

Is this article qualified enough to become a featured article? The length can be explainable since splitting the semifinalists and finalists (which I tried) proved to be impractical. Starczamora 08:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)