Talk:Phillip Wilcher/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Moswento (talk · contribs) 12:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hello there! I'll have a look at this one in the next few days. About time someone did! Moswento ^talky 12:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Initial comments

Overall, this article has GA potential, but it also needs quite a bit of work to get there. As a result, I'm going to do my review in two parts: some initial general comments for improvement and then, if they are addressed, a more detailed review. I look forward to working with you to get this up to GA. Moswento ^talky 12:24, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing

• A recurring issue in this article is that the footnotes at the end of sentences do not always support the sentences in question. E.g. "Naomi Joy Thompson (8 April 1929 – 21 June 2005) and Leslie James Wilcher (born 16 January 1923)" is not found in footnotes 1, 2 or 3. "As of 2004, he resides in Concord and, due to his interest in composing classical music, he eschews technical devices and motorised vehicles" is not found in footnote 5. Please could you double check these.
  • Thanks for addressing this. I'm getting right to fix the accuaracy. Either there was some vandalism going on or this is the fault of the editor who expanded this shortly after I made this a GAN. I'll also let the expanding editor know about this. 和DITOREtails 22:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
  1. Most of the quoted section on Naomi and Leslie is found at ref [1] "An Unforgettable Joy", viz: "Naomi Joy Wilcher Remembered (April 8, 1929 - June 21, 2005)" or at ref [3] from World War Two Nominal Roll which gives Leslie's full name and date of birth. So which part is not supported here?
  2. His residence in Concord and eschewing technical devices is described in ref [4] Schwarz "Band of Brothers: Also-Rans". I must have put the wrong ref tab but this appears to have been correctly tabbed by EditorE.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
     • Thanks for addressing this. EditorE changed footnote 1 after I posted my review - previously most of the information was unsupported. Moswento ^talky 07:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
• Some of the sources are actually unnecessary, and therefore an unhelpful distraction. This applies to most of the APRA results.
  • This is again the fault of the Expanding editor. I'll tell him about this too. 和DITOREtails 22:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
  1. APRA refs provide Wilcher's full name, current ref [6]: APRA Daybreak; they support claim that Wilcher co-wrote early The Wiggles material, "Summer Dance", which became "Archie's Theme" (also supports Archie as being Wilcher's nickname). These refs have since been removed by EditorE. Ref [6] is also used to support claim that Wilcher composed "Daybreak" and that it was recorded by Ritter and Petito. Ref [10] supports claim that Wilcher wrote and played "Autumn Rain". Which of these are unnecessary?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
     • I didn't really have a problem with the 'Daybreak' reference being used to support Wilcher's middle name - in fact, I might suggest reinstating one of the APRA references immediately after his name to support this. However, the other APRA refs don't add much, with the exception of showing that "Daybreak" was recorded by Ritter and Petito. The two for "Summer Dance" and "Archie's Theme" only show that he wrote two pieces of music called "Summer Dance" and "Archie's Theme", which we can accept without a source. They do not support the fact that "Summer Dance" became "Archie's Theme" (in fact, on their own they would point in the opposite direction), and nor do they support the fact that Wilcher's nickname was "Archie". EditorE was correct to move these. The "Autumn Rain" reference is still unnecessary - why do we need a source to say that he wrote a song called Autumn Rain? The problem with over-sourcing in this way is that readers might go to the source expecting to find support for the "was published when he was 17, by J. Albert & Son.", and be disappointed. Moswento ^talky 07:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
     1. Okay.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Bias

• There seem to be competing views surrounding the Wiggles section of his career, but this isn't reflected in the article. This isn't "bias" as such, as you do not favour one side over the other, but it is still an issue. Two examples: 1) The sources used to support the fact that he "contributed the most musically to the debut album" are both the words of Wilcher himself. The quote from Greg Page, however, seems to give a more moderating view. 2) The article goes with Dianna O'Neill's version of Wilcher leaving the band, where Wilcher would give a slightly different view.
  1. I've reworded these, hopefully it addresses this issue.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
     • Thanks, I'll have a look when I do "Phase 2" of my review. Moswento ^talky 07:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Quotations

• I like the quotations in this article, they add a definite character, depth and interest. However, some of the quotations could be partially paraphrased and/or trimmed to enhance readability. This would include Wilcher's quote at the start of the 'Early life' section, and Greg Page's quote.
  1. I've trimmed the two quotes, hopefully I haven't lost too much character, depth or interest.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
     • Thanks again, I'll have a look when I continue my review. Moswento ^talky 07:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. 和DITOREtails 22:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Now that these have been addressed, I'll move on with my review, and post further comments below soon. Moswento ^talky 07:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Phase 2

Overalls

• Overall, this is now shaping up to be a "wiggly" good article. It's interesting, covering all of the main aspects of Wilcher's career. Most of the article is based on third-party reliable sources, with Wilcher's website being used to flesh out some non-controversial details. I have quite a few queries on the text, most of which are minor and shouldn't require much work or discussion. The section that needs the most work is the "Later career" section, which has all the right facts but currently lacks a good structure. I look forward to this review progressing, and I'm sure we'll finish up with a positive result. Good work! Moswento ^talky 11:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Is this now ready for me to have another look at? Moswento ^talky 09:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
    1. I'm okay, but I don't know about original nominator, Editor E.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• "age of 14-years-old" - "age of 14"
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "(ex-The Cockroaches)" - too much information for the lead? I would cut.
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "in July, to focus" - an unnecessary comma
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• The Rita Crew quote needs a citation even in the lead
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "radio stations, ABC-FM" - another unnecessary comma
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "of his interest of" - "interest in" or "passion for" etc.
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Family life

• "due to his interest in composing classical music" - this makes it sound as if he eschews technical devices because they are modern (although the quote does clarify it). I wonder if a stronger noun would carry the sense better, e.g. "due to his passion for composing..."
  •  Done Is "hobby" fine? 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Early years

• "Phillip Wilcher has described his childhood:" - I can't quite put my finger on it, but this seems an awkward way to start the section. Maybe an initial context would help? E.g. "Wilcher's interest in music began in childhood. He later reflected: "
  •  Done Changed 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "age of eight-years-old" - "age of eight". Likewise for "14-years-old" in the next paragraph
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "was recorded" - "was later recorded" - otherwise, the reader might expect a contemporary recording
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• ""For seven years Wilcher was a student of composer and musicologist" - As we (presumably) don't know the years of this relationship, it would be good to mention that this was soon after the publication of "Daybreak".
  •  Done 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "later he was Holford's associate for over twenty years." - what does "associate" mean? I couldn't see this in the sources
  •  Fixed 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Wiggle Time

• "early childhood music department" - the source describes it as "program" rather than a "department"
  •  Fixed 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• "which went on to become "Australia's foremost children's entertainment act"" - this makes this sentence a bit cumbersome. I wonder if it would be better to mention their success with the 2005 quote instead? E.g. " In 2005, when The Wiggles had become Australia's most successful children's act, he opined ..."
  1. Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "their first album, The Wiggles (July 1991)." - Due to the repetition of "The Wiggles", I wonder if "their self-titled debut album" would be better here? (or maybe "self-titled" is jargon? hmmm....)
  •  Fixed 和DITOREtails 12:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• Three consecutive sentences start with "Wilcher" - change one to "He" (probs the middle one)
  1. Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "nicknamed Archie due to his admiration of United States pianist, Liberace." - maybe I'm musically ignorant, but I don't get the connection between "Liberace" and "Archie"? I guess other readers might not either. Could you clarify?
  1. In Australian pronunciation "Archie" is a loose rhyme for Liberace, ie "Lib-er-ah-chie". Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "The Wiggles included another piece..." - maybe this would work better as the second sentence in the paragraph? E.g. "This included another piece he had composed..."
  •  Fixed 和DITOREtails 12:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "Wilcher left The Wiggles and according to the group's spokesperson" - two things: 1) the "and" doesn't quite work here. A full stop would probably be fine. 2) This makes it sound as if the statement was issued at the time, rather than a while later. E.g. "Amid later speculation, the group's spokesperson Dianna O'Neill described how he submitted a letter of resignation because he wanted to continue composing classical music."
  •  Fixed 和DITOREtails 12:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Later career

• My general comment is that this section could do with a bit more structure. The first and last paragraphs read as disconnected statements about his career. My natural instinct would be to have one paragraph about his composing, perhaps beginning with a statement about him having "published over 100 piano-related works"; then have the second paragraph telling us about his style, as shown through Carrigan's CDs; then have a third paragraph about his other work, i.e. performing, APRA, magazine board member, public speaking. Other arrangements of this material might work, but at the moment it definitely needs tightening.
  1. I've had a go at reorganising this section, hopefully it is tighter.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• There are a few unnecessary commas in this section - both of the commas in "He has set poetry, by American librettist Jack Larson, to music", "Pianist, Jeanell Carrigan", "radio stations, ABC-FM"
  1. Done (by someone else).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "His works has" - I think you know the problem here ;)
  1. Yeah, "d'oh".shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• Rita Crews quote: The important part here is the last part, about Wilcher's style.
  1. Trimmed.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• It also doesn't work to introduce the quote with just a comma. Perhaps "Rita Crews, in a review of Shimmer (2004) for The Studio Quarterly Magazine, described Wilcher's style as [insert quote here]"?
  1. Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "while he was disappointed with the "very dull and dry" recording sound" - this doesn't seem necessary here, as we're talking about Wilcher's composition, rather than Carrigan's albums
  1. Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• ""there is an intimacy about Wilcher's style that defies criticism" - I wonder if this could be cut out as well.
  1. Removed the whole sentence.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• "According to the National Library of Australia's Trove search engine, as from May 2013, he has authored some 227 works." - This sentence is somewhat misleading, as some works appear twice. The statement about over "100" piano pieces is sufficient.
  1. Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Phase 3

Thanks for your replies to my comments so far. Sorry that I've overlooked this one for a few days - it slipped off my radar. Copying comments from below to make it easier for you...

• "nicknamed Archie due to his admiration of United States pianist, Liberace." - maybe I'm musically ignorant, but I don't get the connection between "Liberace" and "Archie"? I guess other readers might not either. Could you clarify?
  1. In Australian pronunciation "Archie" is a loose rhyme for Liberace, ie "Lib-er-ah-chie". Done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
     • The way you've phrased this isn't very clear. The phrase "using an imperfect rhyme" doesn't connect with anything in the sentence at the moment. I would prefer the phrasing you used in explaining it to me, perhaps relegated to a footnote to avoid cluttering the text. Moswento ^talky 13:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

• My general comment is that this section could do with a bit more structure. The first and last paragraphs read as disconnected statements about his career. My natural instinct would be to have one paragraph about his composing, perhaps beginning with a statement about him having "published over 100 piano-related works"; then have the second paragraph telling us about his style, as shown through Carrigan's CDs; then have a third paragraph about his other work, i.e. performing, APRA, magazine board member, public speaking. Other arrangements of this material might work, but at the moment it definitely needs tightening.
  1. I've had a go at reorganising this section, hopefully it is tighter.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
     • It's certainly tighter, but still quite difficult to read, because it jumps around between composing and performing. As I mentioned above, if you have one paragraph just about composing, and one paragraph about his performance and other work, with the album reviews in between, this will automatically tighten things up. Moswento ^talky 13:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

• While 2MBS-FM's Mike Smith found it was "a more openly romantic nature than in his earlier" - Firstly, the "While" is no needed here. Secondly, you need an "of" before the quote for it to flow in the text. Moswento ^talky 13:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

• 1. Phase 3, done.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:26, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
  • • Good stuff - not just phase 3 done, but the whole review done! The Green Symbol of Destiny has arrived! Keep up the good work both of you, Moswento ^talky 13:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)