Talk:Philosophy/Dec06definitions

(A) Philosophy as Analysis and Investigation

Philosophy is the investigation and analysis of the basic principles which are the basis of all our knowledge and activity and are normally taken for granted. As a concept and as a subject it encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use today and can be profitably used regardless of where one's answers to specific philosophical questions lie.

Metaphysics is concerned with the nature of existence in the most fundamental sense. It attempts to answer the question as to what are the most fundamental attributes that all existing things share, if any, as well as fundamental questions concerning how they relate to one another. Epistemology is concerned with the nature of knowledge and how man can know things. As such certain aspects of the functioning of man's mind is included -- his rational faculty (particularly his conceptual capacity) and how it functions as well as his emotional nature. Ethics is concerned with the nature of values and in particular how this concept applies to man and his relationship to the external world and to other men. Politics is concerned with the behavior of men toward one another in the social context. Hence the first question of politics as a philosophical subject might be: how should men deal with one another in such a social context? Thus it can be seen that politics is really a sub-category of ethics since ethical criteria must be used in order to answer its questions. Aesthetics is concerned with man's artistic creations. It also involves choice, i.e., value criteria and as such can also be viewed as a sub-category of ethics.

There are a number of broad approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the traditions of people all over the world. One notable approach is that of Western philosophy, a school of thought originated by the Greeks and developed in the West (discussed above). Eastern philosophy is considered its counterpart since subjective non-rational criteria are largely used to evaluate and resolve issues. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy and epistemology.

Comments on "Philosophy as Analysis and Investigation"

Philosophy as a form of analysis is really quite a narrow category to include it under. Secondly, saying it refers to all knowledge only covers (badly) epsitemology (unless you want to calll ethics knowledge). Thirdly, we already have an article on Western philosophy and this opening should be general enough to apply to Eastern, African and Western philosophy. --Lucas

My purpose in reverting was to get the cleanup tags in place. I have put them back at the top, where they belong, to warn any unwary reader of what follows. This applies to the current introduction. E.g. "The easiest clue to indicate which of these philosophies is being referred to by the word philosophy is to note the language used." Slack, ungrammatical, no context &c. Dbuckner 10:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I thought it a good idea to put the tags just after what was currently being debated. And then perhaps shift the tags as the cleanup progresses throught he article.

I agree with Dbuckner on this "slack" comment, it should be removed or tidied up.--Lucas

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Why do you say 'Western philosophy' and 'Eastern philosophy'. Since the idea of a rational, non-subjective method is essential to 'Western philosophy', and since the very opposite applies to 'Eastern philosophy', how do they comprise 'the subject as a whole'? I've long fought two battles on this page 1. To distinguish clearly the discipline of 'academic' or 'western' philosophy from anything else 2. To have the name 'philosophy' applied to the 'academic' variety. (You don't have a department of Western philosophy, for example). Perhaps I should give up on (2) as a lost cause. In which case, we have an article entitled 'Western philosophy' or 'academic philosophy' or whatever, and delete all reference to Kant, Descartes &c from this page.Dbuckner 10:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

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Excellent work, User:JJL. Just please Sign your part(s). Unfortunately, I'm distracted by User:Dbuckner's interjections. Your overall generalization is truly EXCELLENT.You have my total support. Unfortunately, your work is being chopped up by these instant & distracting questioning interjections by Use:Dbuckner. Yours truly, Ludvikus 16:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

(B) Philosophy as hard to define

Philosophy is that which has almost as many definitions as there have been philosophers. No simple definition can do it justice. Uncontested however, is the etymology of the word.

The word philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and, -sophia, to be wise. It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.

In the contemporary English-speaking academic world it is often used implicitly to refer only to analytic philosophy and, on the other hand, in non-English speaking countries, it often refers implicitly only to continental philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy (confined largely to academia) is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy since both of these two areas talk of philosophy in general but are often only referring to that school. The easiest clue to indicate which of these philosophies is being referred to by the word philosophy is to note the language used. But modern usage of the term is much broader than this rather academic division.

Philosophy as a concept and a subject encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today.

Comments on "Philosophy as hard to define"

This would be preferable if the last paragraph were placed closer to the top, and the comments about the problems of definition were left as a caveat, not a lede. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This is problematic since what it declares is a difficulty of definition at the heart of philosophy, not as a caveat. A more positive lead may, as you suggest be better, however, the proposed last paragraph does not talk of philo-sophy, it declares it to "encompass all knowledge and all that can be known and the means of knowing."

It repeats the word "know" or a cognate, three times; it is fairly clear the definer only speaks of epistemology (just one of the five main branches of western philosophy). "Encompass" also implies some kind of priority. Encompassing the "means of knowing" also sounds odd. --Lucas

"X is that which has almost as many definitions as there have been Xers" is true of many areas of inquiry. Look at the discussion about trying to define Mathematics for example. This is a self-indulgent description ("Our area of study is more esoteric than yours."). There are lots of definitions here. Yes, they are all incomplete...that's always going to be true. I strongly dislike the "philosophy is too hard for the likes of you to understand its definition" approach taken here. JJL 17:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the thrust of your post -- it's not so tough to give a tentative definition -- but at the same time, the philosophers really are across the board in ways that other fields aren't. The sheer number of disparate definitions is exactly the problem. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 18:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I agree it would be nice to have a tentative definition. Al I try to say is that, other than the etymology, there is no such general definition. We can of course talk of Western Phil and its 5 branches, this again is a narrowing and alreayd covered on the page for Western Phil. Whatever def is tentative I suggest it be able to at least apply to these 5 areas but also work for Eastern philosophy.

I don't know where you see a comparitive, "our area is more esoteric than yours". Truth of the matter is that it is different just like the others are different in their own way. Almost with each philosopher we get not only their texts but also a redefinition of what philosophy should be about: it is an under-labourer to Science for Locke, the Queen of them all for others; a vow to know thyself and the good-life, for some ancients, a synthesis and cocktail of previous thinkers for the historically inclined; Aught it interpret the world or change it?

By the way, which area of study, in your opinion, is in fact the most esoteric, would it happen to be the oldest?

Whatever difficulties other areas may have in defining themselves they at least have some agreed practice, (eg, the giving of a proof in Math is, maybe not 100% agreed, but, well agreed and is either accepted as sound or rejected).

--Lucas

Lucas, we seem to agree that etymology and the five branches are essential. (Dean mentions below that the role of the definition in actual usage should be clarified, and I don't argue with that.) We also agree that Western and Eastern philosophy should be included. I am ignorant of much of Eastern philosophy, but would have to know where and how Eastern works do not fall under the five branches (regardless of how each branch may be intertwined with the others).

Redundancy shouldn't be too much of a worry -- the purpose of the intro is to give the reader a quick idea of what's to come in the rest of the article.

And we shouldn't worry about relational matters as much as we have in the past. I think a lot of the disputes up until now have been concerning how philosophy fits with everything else: science, religion, language, psychology, etc. These matters have been deeply intertwined with negative discussions of "what philosophy is not". While important, and while they demand some kind of a treatment, we shouldn't let these topics distract us from the positive works of philosophers as philosophers. We might mention a few of the popular positions, but the disciplinary limits of philosophy is a topic that is more suitable for discussion elsewhere, such as at Metaphilosophy. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 16:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes etymology seems to thing that is least disputed. You say "Dean" mentions something below, I can't find this, anyhow the usage of the word "philosophy" at universities should be given, since it can be used to refer to philosophy generally, its history, or certain schools.

The five branches are Western and the problem we have here is that there is already a page called Western Philosophy. Do you have any idea when philosophy began to be seen in 5 branches. It seems impossible though to avoid some duplication since even the etymology is Greek and Western. But to say philosophy is such and such and merely give the Western point of view fails the article. Unless you suggest merging the two articles together.

In Eastern philosophy, in Taoism or Confusianism, for example, there is a kind of holism that does not suit these 5 branches, but there is also a tendency there to associate philosophy not with theology (as occured in the middle ages) but with the politics of how best to rule and bring happiness to the state. Of course the massive Eastern take up of Marxist thought would also be worth a mention in this overview article. As too, perhaps the influence of Indian and Chinese philosophy on the West during the Enlightenment and later. And perhaps the Persian one.

"relational matters" as you say, that is, how philosophy relates to the sciences and literature would be better covered in this article (where else could they be). We could mention for example how many sciences were originally philosophy later being called natural philosophy, then science. And how such relations are both western and eastern. As to the idea of a separate thing called metaphilosophy, I think this is some kind of joke, since most philosophers in history have a "meta" position on philosophy (eg, Aristotle philosophy only comes in times of leisure). It also means metaphysics would have to be called meta-meta-physics! I don't deny some philosophical positions have a metaphilosophical angle even if this involves re-introducing philosophy to certain sciences that were originally considered as philosophy, to for example, historical anthropology or sociology. --Lucas

a) Dean's comment is at the end of the page. b) I don't know when the five branches began, but it's a start. c) Again, duplication in this sense is irrelevant, and is even a good thing that is both expected and required in an intro to a general topic. d) We would be grateful for some sourced remarks on Eastern philosophy in the intro. But "holism", so stated, isn't especially unique to the East. I believe we discussed this previously. e) Don't blame me, I don't make up the names for these things. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 02:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, Bertrand Russell would've endorsed this option. "We may note one peculiar feature of philosophy. If someone ask (sic) the question what is mathematics, we can give him a dictionary definition, let us say the science of number, for the sake of argument. As far as it goes this is an uncontroversial statement... Definitions may be given in this way of any field where a body of definite knowledge exists. But philosophy cannot be so defined. Any definition is controversial and already embodies a philosophic attitude. The only way to find out what philosophy is, is to do philosophy." (Wisdom of the West, p.7) { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 03:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

(C) Philosophy as the study of being/knowledge/conduct

Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct. The word comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and -sophia, to be wise, and is commonly translated as "love of wisdom". In Western philosophy, the emphasis is on the rational investigation of truths and principles; in Eastern philosophy, there is greater emphasis on a more intuitive investigation. Philosophy is differentiated from science by an emphasis on first principles over empirical methods.

Academics distinguish between analytic philosophy and continental philosophy within Western philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy. In fact, modern usage of the term is much broader than this academic division would indicate. In its broadest meaning, Philosophy encompasses all of human knowledge and all that may be known, including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today; sometimes the former two are taken together and the latter two are taken as being under ethics, with logic added as the third basic category.

There are many approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the philosophical tradition being followed, but the major threads are those of Western philosophy and Eastern philosophy. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy.

Comments on "Philosophy as the study of being/knowledge/conduct"

A Philosophy is... introduction is appropriate for those not yet familiar with Western vs. Eastern and analytic vs. continental divisions. This intro. states the general subject matter and etymology up-front, as well as the major E-W division. JJL 15:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

To quote the first sentence of this intro, it says, "Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct." This I believe is taken from an online dictionary. That aside I think that it is far to self assured. First thing to admit about philosophy is an ignorance and that there are really no easy anwsers. In detail the term of this intro: "investigate", sounds like detective work and ignores the interpretive and political aspects; "truths and principles" already assumes there are such things; "being, knowlege, and conduct", a list like this can only be partial, how manys ideas are left out, one could equally add, eg, society, essences, metaphysics, history, justice, life etc., etc.. "Conduct" sounds very odd, the conduct of what? Do you mean ethics or morals? --Lucas

Look at: mathematics, sociology, psychology, physics, Literature, etc....all these fields/areas have an entry that starts "X is..." and philosophy should be no different. It's an intellectual conceit to think that mathematics--which predates philosophy--can be summed up briefly but philosophy cannot. The fact that a simple definition is inadequate is why there's a whole article. But, the current intro. is out-of-step with the rest of the similar entries on WP.

For 'investigation', one can write 'study' instead. 'Conduct' is meant to refer broadly to concerns of ethics/politics/etc. The rest of the article can expand on those ideas. JJL 17:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it strange that you want to equate all these different items: [mathematics]], sociology, psychology, physics, Literature. Is it an intellectual conceit to equate everything? Let editors their make their own discussion about how to define the area. As mentioned above Math may be easiar to define since its practice is pretty uniform and it is taught even to 5 year olds. The earth is also older than philosophy, reems of books have not been written trying to define it though. Anyhow, if it is uniformity you like, the current consensu into begins "philosophy is" and so is with wiki guidlines on this. Nor did you resolve any of the issues raised above on this intro. Also I do not like the way it refers to Eastern philosophy as irrational. The 18th century idea of philosophy as the "rational pursuit of knowledge etc." sounds like a quote the first ever Encyclopédie.

I am suggesting that these major areas of knowledge should be treated in a somewhat similar way. I find your habit of reflexively reversing any argument directed your way--as your facetious use of 'conceit' here, or claiming your reversion has 'consensu'--tiring. As to Eastern philosophy...edit the intro. to phrase it differently. I have modified it in response to this concern already. Do you disagree that that appraoch is more intuitive/subjective? JJL 01:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

This is clear, but what I ask is why you want to treat them all the same? They are as different as chalk and cheese: Sociology, Literature, Philosophy, you almost span the complete diversity. To equate all these things does seem to me to be a conceit of yours.

I think it is not a conceit, but honest, to say up front that philosophy is not easily defined. Perhaps one particular school might agree on some wording but this is not even the Western philosophy page, this is philosophy overall. This intro as the "study of the truths of conduct" and "rational investigation of principles" would suit better a definition of philosophy to be given by someone the 18th century. It ignores the entire 20th Century and all of Ancient and medieval times, it ignores Existentialism, it even ignores Hegel, Wittgenstein, Eastern, Quine etc.

Nor do I see anyone other than you supporting this intro, hence my remark on consensus. Again unlike the other entries you have not responded to criticisms made above.

By suggesting the West is rational and East intuitive you are trying to draw fine lines when it requires a broad opening. Let Western and Eastern define themselves in their own subsections.

--Lucas

Moving the more specific discussion of E vs. W downward is fine by me. As to the similarities between math. (say) and phil., that isn't at all the point; the WP entries for major areas of (academic) knowledge should have some consistency--a style issue. Those entries are similar in nature and intent. But, as with anal./cont., you seem to be very focused on the differences. An opening paragraph is the time for statement that says what something is, not what it is not. If phil. can't be adequately explained, why have an entry for it?

I would definitely like to hear others' opinions on the matter. JJL 15:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, philosophy is not only academic. The academic use of the word is covered in the intro but at a later paragraph, the academic usage that refers usually to either analytic continental is relevant at that point. Since philosophy is not only academic, it is a choice to follow some academic style of "philosophy is". If you consider it only as academic discipline, to which academy are you refering? Western? Continental? Analytic? Since your definition may only represent one.

My issue anyhow is not with "philosophy is" but what comes next. Here I find you definition constricting for an opening line. Only later in the article should we narrow it down.

As to others opinion, the "philosophy as hard to define" seems marginally more agreed upon since no one else seems to agree with this one. However, I'd prefer we could agree on something rather than just get a random vote. With this in mind please try to respond to the criticisms as I hope I have to yours. --Lucas

Again, in my opinion,EXCELLENT work, User:JJL!!! Unfortunately, your being chopped up by the Boetians. I'd like you to collect your writing together, and submit it as the COMPROMISE introduction. I will then be willing to FINE-TUNE IT. But I am so HAPPY to have discovered a WIKIPEDIAN like you who is CLEARLY WELL VERSED in the Western Intellectual Tradition!!! And if you are not - YOU CERTAINLY HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB OF SUMMARIZING IT. Ludvikus 16:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

(D) Philosophy as a Western intellectual subject, an defined by encyclopedias as X

Philosophy is a subject in the Western intellectual tradition. A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquire from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy. Its two combining forms come down to us from the ancient Greek word, "Φιλοσοφία;" these are philo-, or phil-; and -sophy. The former is tracible to the transliterated Greek philos, originally meaning dear, or friendly, but translating as loving, or having an affinity for. The latter is tracible to sophia, or sophos, originally meaning wisdom, but translating as knowledge, wisdom, or science. And it is from this analysis that that the common conclusion is deduced - that philosophy is the love of wisdom.

According to the Grolier Encyclopedia (1957), "When the word philosophy was first used by the Greeks, it meant simply the search for knowledge or science. Soon after, through the influence of Socrates, Plato, and later, Aristotle, it took on the additional meaning of the search for wisdom or the best life." According to the New Americanized Encyclopaedia Britannica (1904), "A specific sense of the word first meets us in Plato, who defines the philosopher as one who apprehends the essence or reality of things in opposition to the man who dwells in appearance and the shows of sense. Logic, ethics, and physics, psychology, theory of knowledge, and metaphysics are all fused together by Plato in a semi-religious synthesis. It is not till we come to Aristotle that we find a demarkation of the different philosophic disciplines corresponding, in the main, to that still current."

Comments on "Philosophy as a Western intellectual subject, and defined by encyclopedias as X"

I find this fourth option for an intro, like the editor above, as the worst of the four optins so far. I will list my reasons for this and it is not merely negative. First philosophy is not a western subject anymore than it is eastern, geography is not something it concerns itself with much, in any case there is already a page Western Philosophy and unless you suggest a merge of the two pages, this statement is off the mark and dismisses the other editors above, who only seem to agree so far on etymology and not that it is a subject of western intellectuals.

I find the second sentence, "A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquired from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy.", to be very awkwardly constructed. Previously what was there was just that etymological meaning was the least disputed and agreed by all editors as a good place to start.

References to Goliers 1957 famously inaccurate encyclopedia and to the Americanised one are poor places to go for authentic information, they seem to ignore many philosophers and give a very biased account of the subject. They say philosophy was science before Plato! This is such an odd thing to say, and is contradicted by the second encylopedia. Many of the pre-socratics weere mystics and the like not scientists, it mixes up centuries. The second encyclopedia quoted above is clearly biased (unlike history) toward Aristotle, the author perhaps being scientifically minded.

Further trying to track down an origin for philosophy as you do by refering only to Plato and Aristotle in the introduction is a mistaken view of what it means, it loses itself in an etymological discussion which was already been given and that should be brief.

The intro should be as inclusive as possible, that means not ignoring people like Wittgenstein or Russell or Hume, nor Hegel or Heidegger nor Lau-Tzu or Confucius.

Most importantly wiki is not a meta-encyclopedia, we don't just reproduce what the dusty old ones said, there are scholars and experts directly online who know more about it than these archaic compilers. --Lucas

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Lucas, clearly, substitutes his opinions, and philosophical view, in brief, his own, personal philosophical view and preferences, in place of the Masters, and the recognized authorities. The ad hominum against Golier is absurd. What Golier says is by far suprior to these a-historical diatribes and ramblings in ignorance - I mean this literally - the above clearly demonstrates ignorance of writings on philosophy,or its history in the world!!! Ludvikus 16:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

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