Talk:Phoenix Park Murders

Responsibility

The sentence:

Responsibility for the assassinations was claimed by a small republican organisation called Irish National Invincibles and they were apparently to resign from parliament in protest at what he called "these vile murders", an offer turned down by the British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone.

needs clarification

teneriff (talk) 01:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I've edited the sentence, and will address references first chance I get.--Domer48 (talk) 09:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Page move was not non-controversial

Changing the article title from Murders to Killings should be reversed. Calling the incident Murders does not contravene WP:NPOV, they were deliberate killings whatever one's view of the politics, and that is how they have always been referred to. The move should have been requested via the talk page as per WP:RM#CM. GooglerW (talk) 12:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

The word murder implies it was immoral. Wikipedia doesn't make ethical judgements. Also the words "deliberate killing" are not synonymous with murder. Most people in Ireland would think of the killings as justified. Apollo The Logician (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

The changes made to the article name and eg categories within it are themselves asserting controversial judgments in WP, as is the non-neutral claim about what 'most people in Ireland' think. That is why the page move should have been discussed/requested before implementation as per policy I have cited. GooglerW (talk) 09:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

One editor opposing, who doesn't understand Wikipedia policy is not controversy.18:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Page should be moved back pending a proper WP:RM request. Tim! (talk) 17:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree. Page should be moved back. Murder does not imply a moral position, simply legality. Nigej (talk) 20:03, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree it should be at killings as the most neutral. In this specific political context, the "legality" and legitimacy of the British state in Ireland was disputed by the Irish republicans who carried out the action. We don't for example describe the operations of the French Resistance against the occupying forces of the Third Reich as murder. These men were certainly killed so the phrase "killings" is neutral from both sides of the argument. Claíomh Solais (talk) 00:54, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Two major book sources for this article, cited in the References and Bibliography, are titled: "The Phoenix Park Murders...." I have not seen a justification based on WP policy for not following those sources in naming this article. DonFB (talk) 01:43, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Title of article

The title of the article should be sorted out. As has already been mentioned on this page, both references, in the first sentence of the article, refer to books about "Phoenix Park Murders", not "Phoenix Park Killings". I would change the name back myself but I'm not sure how to do it correctly. Hohenloh ⁺ 20:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

The event was always known as the Phoenix Park Murders. In the contect of 1880s Ireland, it was murder and not just "killing". Definitions get changes for political reasons over time, but comparing (above) to the French Resistance is completely wrong, as under international law the France of 1942 was not a part of the German Reich. In 1882 Ireland was a part of the UK.78.16.6.84 (talk) 09:03, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

The controversial title change was made in January in contravention of WP:RM#CM and the balance of discussion since confirms it should be reversed.GooglerW (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

If anyone wants the title to be changed, then you must open an WP:RM. Spleodrach (talk) 18:09, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

I have moved the article back to Phoenix Park Murders. Moving to "Pheonix Park Killings" indeed is controversial and requests an RM. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)