Talk:Phosphoric acids and phosphates

This comment by Walkerma is copied from Talk:Phosphoric acid:

Looks like you're making good progress on your temp page, Henry. A couple of suggestions- (a) Don't forget the biochemical importance of the conjugate bases- there is a whole page on pyrophosphate, and if you search on "triphosphate" you find a lot of pages containing the word. (b) Could I suggest that phosphate esters DO belong on the page, but phosphite esters are at a different oxidation state and should be considered separately IMHO. I will be writing a page on phosphite esters later in the summer, with a view to writing up the Horner-Wadsworth-Emmons reaction that uses them. Keep up the good work, Walkerma 02:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I moved this temp page contents to the regular article page Phosphoric acids and Phosphates. I'm sorry about the delay, but it took me a while to make the main illustration for it.

Regarding remark a) above: I agree there is biological importance in the conjugate bases, including pyrophosphate and "triphosphate". There is a separate article on polyphosphates which can cover those in detail. Additionally, I plan to add a few remarks to the Phosphoric acids and Phosphates, but I don't plan to go on at length about these in this article since I believe they can be covered in other Wikipedia articles about phosphates. If someone like Walkerma wants to add mention or discussion on these biological phospates in the Phosphoric acids and Phosphates article nevertheless, go ahead and do it.

Early this morning, I briefly added a little more to this article on polyphosphates and phosphate esters, mentioning that there are various biochemically important phosphate esters, and mentioning ADP and ATP as examples. H Padleckas 08:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Regarding remark b) above: I just barely mentioned Phosphite esters in the Phosphoric acids and Phosphates article to compare them with phosphate esters and beyond defining them, I don't plan to go into much further detail about them. Are you (Walkerma) still planning to write a Phosphite ester article? Last time, it seemed the Phosphite ester link was red to me. No hurry though, although I may some day start a bare backbone stub about them, and leave it to you (Walkerma) to finish it. But in the meantime, I would like to write something for Orthophosphoric acid probably first. H Padleckas 09:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I look upon this page as a sort of unifying introductory or summary page for the various kinds of phosphoric acids and phosphates. There are links to individual articles about the different kinds of phosphates such as orthophosphoric acid, pyrophosphate, polyphosphate, etc. where these individual phosphates are covered in more detail. Generally, I'm trying to keep detailed information on a single phosphate form not relevant to the other phosphates (not even by way of comparison) out of this article and in the individual compound articles. H Padleckas 09:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this, Henry, this is a very nice "family" page that gives a good overview of this important class of compounds. We need to make sure it is linked from all appropriate places, such as Adenosine triphosphate, so it gets the use it deserves. I certainly haven't forgotten phosphite ester, in fact I have begun my reading on this topic, and it is still listed on the "to-do" section of my user page- I expect to put something up next month. Walkerma 03:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't overwork yourself. It's only Wikipedia. H Padleckas 08:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Note, a distinction needs to be made between the ester-type functionalities and the anhydride-type functionalities encompassed by the general "phosphate" nomenclature. For instance, the addition of the first phosphoryl group to an organic alcohol -- such as to the 5'-hydroxyl group of adenosine, in a dehydration reaction to form AMP) -- is the formation of an ester, R-O-PO3(2-), charge state at neutral pH in water, where R represents the adenosine portion. This product has usual "phosphate monoester" chemistry (structure, ionizability, reactivity and stability, etc.). The addition of the second and third phosphoryl groups to an ester such as AMP result in the formation of "anhydride" functionalities, e.g., for ADP, R-O-PO2(-)-O-PO3(2-), charges as above. This is a different type of product with very distinct chemical structure, reactivity and stability. That is, the term phosphate in "adenosine monophosphate" and in "adenosine diphosphate" are not referring to the same type of chemical structure at all, with regard to the "phosphate" portion. (For the writers to eventually clarify.) Prof D 98.193.10.59 (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Article name

Shouldn't this article be renamed Phosphoric acids and phosphates, to comply with the guidelines at Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words in titles?

Ben 19:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been so changed. H Padleckas (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Phosphorus acid

I have just recategorised phosphorus acid from a stub to a disambiguation page, but wondered if it should actually be a redirect to (for example) this page. My inorganic chemistry is a bit too rusty to know if "Phosphorus acid" is valid or a mis-understanding of chemical nomenclature.Que (talk) 23:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I take that back, it should probably be a disambig page, but perhaps a little more helpful to people who are not sure what they are looking for. I wouldn't know which of those entries to choose from.Que (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The IUPAC name

If the IUPAC name is "phosphoric acid" meaning orthophosphoric acid, then the comment that "even some chemists" call it that is totally backwards. Or should we assume that chemists attempt to NOT comply with IUPAC nomenclature? Both this article and the orthop. one have this surprized tone that chemists actually use the IUPAC name. Wow!71.31.153.56 (talk) 06:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

In many cases, chemists use common names for chemical compounds more often than IUPAC names, especially outside of formal scientific publications. H Padleckas (talk) 15:38, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but a challenge ...

I too admire the work put into this page, but have to challenge the writers in these areas, (i) in terms of referencing, pointing out that the first 3 of the 4 references are not worthy, in terms of relative importance among all publications on the subject, and in terms of their ideas relative to the preponderance of scientific opinion, to appear in any encyclopedia article (fourth reference, bravo), and likewise the same is true for the only "further reading" citation; (ii) the article skims over the fact that one most often means phosphoric acid esters when discussing "phosphates", thereby missing an opportunity to explain a basic aspect of phosphoryl group and ester importance and chemistry, and (iii) that the article does not yet address what are, ostensibly, the most important classes of phosphoric acid (phosphate) esters to human activity, mono- and diesters composed indirectly from phosphoric acid, and from organic alcohols (primarily saccharides; respectively, e.g., in sugar "phosphates" like glucose-6-phosphate, etc., and the polynucleotides of RNA and DNA)—the former critical in all biological chemistry / metabolism and cellular signaling, and the latter in biological information transfer. (The critical enzyme and drug target class of the "kinases" are nothing other than phosphoryl group transfer catalysts producing various types of such esters.) In omitting information/sections, the article misses an essential chemical unity of nature, vis-a-vis the role of P(III) and P(IV) oxyacid derivatives in inorganic and organic/living systems (see, for instance, Figure 3.53 in "Nucleic Acids in Chemistry and Biology," 2006, GM Blackburn, MJ Gair, LD Loakes, and DM Williams eds., 3rd Ed., Cambridge: RSC Publishing). Prof D 98.193.10.59 (talk) 00:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Monomeric Metaphosphate HPO3 or HO-PO2

I am pretty sure that there is good evidence for the transient existence of HO-PO2 during the p-chem studies of some precursors and also as an intermediate in some phosphate biochemistry. See, for example, Lowe, G.; Sproat, B. S. J. Chem. Soc., Chem. Commun. 1978, 783– 785. Cullis, P. M.; Iagrossi, A.; Rous, A. J. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1986, 108, 7869– 7870. (I can't access those journals at this time, but I think those are relevant papers.) Thermal retro-hetero-Diels-Alder of oxsphosphinanes (6-membered ~C-C=C-C-P(O)(OH)-O~ ring) is one example reaction that is supposed to release detectable gas phase HO-PO2 plus C=C-C=C .

Or is the current consensus that monomeric metaphosphate does not exist? AdderUser (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Merge discussion

Currently, Wikipedia has three pages Phosphoric acids and phosphates, Phosphorus acid, and Polyphosphate, about oxyacids and oxyanions of phosphorus. I feel that three is more than necessary, but I am unsure which to merge into or split among which. Please provide feedback pertaining to whether the other pages should be merged into this page, this page should be split to the other pages, or something else. Care to differ or discuss with me? The N^th User 23:25, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Polyphosphate is about the biological roles of phosphate, Phosphoric acids and phosphates is broader, and Phosphorus acid is broader once more. My feeling is that the current structure is reasonable, with each of the pages linked. The two articles articles with the narrower scope each appear to be independently, so I think that its reasonable to leave as is; so, opposing the merge. Klbrain (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Phosphorus acid which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)