Talk:Pine County, Minnesota

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Removal of poorly sourced or made up history

@98.61.203.80: No reliable sources or simply no sources for tornado history.
I have also added the following test to your similar edits to the Pine City, Minnesota article.
What I can find this about this claim of a sunken circus train full of confederate's gold at Devil's Lake online about has been published in the Pine County News and only pointing it out as an myth/urban legand - not as a fact. Their last article was damning about it was by the editor of the Pine County News himself - "This sunken-circus-train-full-of-gold business has gone too dang far"

What is worse is the editor's statement of Wikipedia's involvement in spreading the claim.

"And that leads us to the thing, the reason I’m bringing all of this up. It was brought to my attention that an area publication reprinted a portion of the Pine County Wikipedia page that addresses this lost train in Devils Lake story. But that page (and that publication) didn’t stop at the story previously described, the story that has been circulating for decades in Pine City. No, the train in the Wikipedia article is now much more than an ordinary train – it’s a circus train, full of Confederate gold, being smuggled to a zoo in Canada before it derailed into our own Devils Lake."

It goes on...

"I will point out that this section of our Pine County Wikipedia page first appeared on Jan. 26, 2020, and appears to have been written on a mobile device. I think it’s pretty clear that someone was having some fun here, and decided to amp the legend up to a new level of absurdity."
The IP of the person who did this went on to be blocked multiple times for disruptive editing.

You will need more than a source from a newsletter that very few (if any) have access to review your astonishing claims. It, in itself, is not a reliable source for such a bold claim.WP:RELIABLE WP:VERIFY

BTW: you need to properly cite your source. PCHS could be any thing. Perhaps the Postal Carriers Historical Society?

Examples:
Number. Author AA. Title of article. Title of Newsletter. Year Month Day of publication;volume(issue):pages.
or
Number. Author AA. Title of article. Title of Newsletter [Internet]. Year Month Day of publication [cited Year Month Day];volume(issue):pages. Available from: http://xxxxx

Please cease disruptive editing I encourage you to review Wikipedia Guidelines to aid you in becoming being a better and more professional editor. Additional I encourage you to create a user account rather add unsubstantiated content to articles. If not, like the previous IP you will find that your IP may get blocked from editing as well. Myotus (talk) 04:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Tornado history? Taken straight from the following: http://www.usa.com/pine-county-mn-natural-disasters-extremes.htm If not appropriately attributed, my bad.

Apologies if the formatting was incorrect for this reference: PCHS = Pine County Historical Society, October 2021. This is how the paper describes itself on the masthead. They do not have an online repository of their newletters as far as I can tell. I do have physical photographs of the article in question, though I've recycled the physical copy.

There have been a great number of references to the train wreck in Devil's Lake, some attributing it to legend, others that have contributed significant background regarding the story.

On May 9 2014, Ron Keagle wrote 'The Legend of the Lost Train in Devil's Lake' found here: https://www.presspubs.com/pine_city/opinion/columns/the-legend-of-the-lost-train-in-devils-lake/article_9f42cbb8-d7b9-11e3-9d07-0019bb2963f4.html

On April 26 2010, Nathan Johnson published 'Pine City, Images in America'. On p.33 he references the story of the train that derailed into Devil's Lake, and specifically states that the story refers to a circus train. Published by Arcadia publishing: https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9780738577401

July 1 2010, an article in the Pine City Pioneer detailed a group of divers who attempted a search for the lost train. https://www.pinecountynews.com/search-for-a-sunken-train-in-devil-s-lake/article_6379fd5b-7977-5524-9765-8f076867e840.html

July 1 2016, another article in the Pine City Pioneer detailed a magnetometer grid search of the lake with what was described as 'evidence' of three train cars at the bottom of the lake. https://www.pinecountynews.com/news/team-plans-dive-to-hunt-legendary-lost-train-of-devils-lake/article_ec808c3c-3fc0-11e6-9f80-67c5fb44bbab.html

I am well aware of the editorial that you quote as your primary source of evidence. The former editor of the Pioneer can have fun with this topic if he likes, but the fact that you mischaracterized his editorial as an article that provided the 'damning' evidence needed to 'debunk' a story that has a significant number of people willing to go on the record and expend significant time and energy to back it up seems a bit hypocritical. As I'm sure you know, an editorial is an opinion piece whereas an article is expected to be unbiased and free from subjectivity.

Whether the train story is 100% true or lands somewhere between fact and legend, it is a part of the historical fabric of Pine City. The local brewery has named a barley wine after it, there are discussions about starting a summer festival to commemorate the event and there is renewed interest in searching the lake this coming summer.

However, it appears that no matter how much support I attach to this story, you are unwilling to allow for reference on the wikipedia page. Meanspirited? It would seem so. 98.61.203.80 (talk) 00:05, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

As far as Tornado history your source was weak - not terrible but weak, and yes you could work on doing a better job making citations. If you had done just a little more work, and gone to the government's own page that it cited - National Centers for Environmental Information Storm Events Database ROCK CREEK PINE CO.MN 06/17/2010. US Federal and State Government and most accredited university sites can be strong reliable sources.

As far as the train wreck...

Your quote"There have been a great number of references to the train wreck in Devil's Lake, some attributing it to legend, others that have contributed significant background regarding the story."

Ron Keagle's piece is an opinion piece not a news story and was labeled as such. Ron Keagle also has no authority on the matter other than that of folklorist. He does bring up one very interesting bit of information. He mentions he heard it first in Don Boxmeyer's column in the Pioneer Press "around 1990." I would be curious what Boxmeyer wrote about it. However, Boxmeyer was a columnist (and to some extent a folklorist himself) he was not reporting hard news for the paper.

Nathan Johnson - While I respect local history and understand its limitations for getting published especially in smaller and rural communities, it can be useful for filling in non-controversial backgrounds of communities. However, bold hard-to-believe stories such as a lost circus train wreck with Confenderate gold need much more reliable and authoritative sources of information especially when placed in a timeline as fact. Looking up Nathan Johnson's background it appears he is an amateur historian not a historian with training in theory and methodologies with advanced degrees in history. Arcadia Publishing, is a publisher of local histories, but the books they publish lack rigorous fact checking and critical reviews. Again this might be okay for minor and non-controversial backgrounds of a community. However, if a history gets challenged and it no reliable sources can be found to back up that history then it cannot be keep in the article.

July 1 2010, an article in the Pine City Pioneer - Some one searching for the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot making the news does not mean there is a monster in the lake or a beast in the woods. It just means they have surplus time/money and an opinion or belief.

July 1 2016, article in the Pine City Pioneer detailed a group of divers who attempted a search for the lost train. - And in the article in the Nov 18, 2016 Pine City Pioneer is titled "Latest dive turns up empty for ‘lost train’ hunters." The man who did the search and speculation is not a trained archeologist he runs a towing auto shop. Again, I love the passion of amateur historians but with this type of claim, there needs to be much better evidence.

Your comment on the Editor of the Pine County News himself - Yes it is an opinion, but it is the opinion of the editor of the newspaper, which is a significant opinion in the matter. He is the editor and local journalist in area. He is not the town's auto mechanic. To quote Douglas Adams: “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

What we have here without solid evidence is a hoax at worst and folklore at best - it does not land somewhere between fact and legend, as there are no facts to support it. The reason we have archives is to prove that the past happened. There are no records of a train existing, this in a time period where records of train wreaks are kept rather fastidiously. It may appear that this is a recent creation, created as a publicity stunt. What is the earliest published account of this event? I can find nothing before the 2000s.

Sadly Pine County's own history on the Wikipedia page is only a mire two paragraphs long with it only modist discussing its creation story. It is as if Pine County stopped changing after 1872. No mention of development, when it was electrified, what happened during the World Wars, the Spanish flu and the Great Depression. Zero on the history logging industry. Those histories are data that could actually benefit the county's page. Most of Pine County's cities have only one paragraph or no history written at all. Pine County's 33 townships' histories are even worse, with nearly all not having any history. Instead so much is wasted on a vanity project to put what amounts to getting a story unsupported by any facts about a derailed Circus train caring Confederate gold on the page.

As far as your statement: "However, it appears that no matter how much support I attach to this story, you are unwilling to allow for reference on the wikipedia page. Meanspirited? It would seem so."

Please read Wikipedia's article on Assuming good faith it is a fundamental core principle on Wikipedia. It is the assumption that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith.

Again, I recommend that you create a user account and read Wikipedia's list of policies. I would also encourage you to look at the American Folklore Society's website: What is Folklore? Folklore is an academic discipline in itself and very interesting. Myotus (talk) 06:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The source that you've referenced is an unimpeachable authority and his opinions should be treated as fact, but authors of pieces with whom you disagree 'have no authority' on this matter. Seems fair - this reflects much of the editorial attitude in the world in which we now live. This wikipedia page is 'your truth' at this point.

If local folklore is prohibited from entry into wikipedia articles, I would suggest that you spend some of your wiki-editing energies in a few other areas:

Loch Ness, Scotland - The page for the monster specifically states that it is a creature in Scottish folklore. How is it possible that this unsubstantiated story is allowed to exist on the page for the geographical feature of Loch Ness itself?

Bermuda - An incredibly well-sourced and detailed wikipedia page. However, it references directly to the Bermuda Triangle and speaks of the 'legend' of the events associated with the area. Interestingly, in the talk section of the Bermuda Triangle there are no suggestions to remove the page or delete any unsupported statements. The debate seems to be whether this should be considered a conspiracy theory, a legend or an urban legend. How is this not flagged for 'folklore' as you suggest for the train in Devil's Lake?

Bemidji, Minnesota - I see that the Wikipedia page for Bemidji has a photograph of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox. If I click on that link, I get to the page for their statues. Clicking on the link to Paul Bunyan within that page lets me into the page for the 'man' himself. If I didn't know better, I'd think that Wikipedia allowed a page for a guy that was completely made up! It's almost like he is a mythical creation used in folk stories. Wait a second - there's even a section debating his authenticity. Interesting that a disputed story can have a place in Wikipedia where the merits can be discussed rather than just have it deleted by one wiki editor.

Bimini - This beautiful chain of islands in the Bahamas also has a nice wikipedia page. In the History section, there is a write up of Ponce de Leon's search for the Fountain of Youth. Like our intrepid train searchers, he did not find the fountain. In fact, it seems possible that the Fountain never even existed... However, his search for the fountain was written up in the Bimini page and is referenced in the page for the State of Florida as well.

Folklore? Myth? Does it belong in wikipedia? I guess I will leave it up to Myotus to tell me because it sure seems like contradictions abound. 98.61.203.80 (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I just received a copy of the 2021 October Pine County Historical Society newsletter you cited. There is no mention of the event. Myotus (talk) 17:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Can't help but notice that the document you linked is the December copy of the newsletter. Get a copy of the October version and you will find the article. 98.61.203.80 (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, local forklore as you have noticed is not banded from Wikipedia. But A). It must be presented as that folklore and not truth. B). It must be notable, which has not yet been shown or established. Myotus (talk) 17:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)