Talk:Pink and White Terraces

Period photos welcome

If this place was destroyed in 1886 and there were photos taken before the destruction, the should be public domain (by means of expiration) by any standard and freely "grab-able" for this article. --Bobak 21:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To build on this, I see this work having possible concerns to be addressed in the US and NZ. In the US and photo published before 1923 is in the Public Domain[1], thus any photo of this natural wonder would likely be legal for use in the United States. According to New Zealand's Ministry of Economic Development, Copyright terms in NZ are less harsh than the US: life of author +50. Unless someone took a photo of this and lived to be unbelievably old, these photos would also fall into the public domain (use this exercise: a person in NZ takes the photo in 1886 at age 20. The person lives to be 80, dying in 1946, now add 50 yrs and we have 1996). --Bobak 23:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The whole History before the eruption section

Is very long - I have just tidied a few errors in the Dieffenbach bit and do wonder why most of this is here and not the Dieffenbach page - one whole paragraph is simply about Dieffenbach as a person rather than any relation to the Terraces. However I couldn't bring myself to even consider deleting it. Possibly what it needs is for this and other bits of this section to be moved to other more appropriate pages. Andrewgprout (talk) 06:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The intention of seemingly long history inserts is because a lot of Post eruption history has been documented incorrectly and is incorrect.I spent 10 years working on the enlightenment of the truth and am dissapointed to see there are others with the wrong intentions changing input.(Herbyfitz (talk) 21:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC))

Please discuss anything you believe has been removed that can be verified by reliable references None of the post eruption details have been edited. It is my understanding that Wikipedia is not the place to put forward your own research - referencing your own website does not count as reliable references I'm afraid. Most of the changes have involved removing the worst of this unreferenced or misinterpreted ideas and by moving details to the new Seymour_Mills_Spencer, or other existing pages such as Alfred_Warbrick. There is much that can be done to improve these other pages rather than trying to shoehorn this information into the Pink and White Terraces page. I can assure you that any change made by me has been made with the best of intentions to improve this article. Andrewgprout (talk) 05:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Diffenbach

"One of the first Europeans to visit the Rotomahana area was Johan Karl Ernst Dieffenbach. He visited Rotomahana and the Terraces while on a mission for the New Zealand Shipping Company."

My change of New Zealand Shipping Company to The New Zealand Company has been reverted. The wikipedia page for Diffenbach and the following reference both support the NZ company as his employer.

"In 1839 he sailed to New Zealand in the Tory as surgeon and naturalist for the New Zealand Company. In the course of surveying the country for the Company, Dieffenbach made extensive journeys into the interior of the North Island, exploring Tongariro, Taupo, Waikato, and Whaingaroa, and he made the first successful climb of Mount Egmont. He also visited the Chatham Islands." http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/dieffenbach-ernst/1

So I am changing back as this is clearly in error. Andrewgprout (talk) 08:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thankyou for your prompt reply Andrew.

There is much to discuss can we do this on my talk page. regards (Herbyfitz (talk) 04:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC))

Replaced

most of this as most of it is not about the terraces -some of it may be useful and appropriate for other pages but not here.

History before eruption 824AD Ferdinand von Hochstetter estimated that the precipitation phase of the terraces began very close to 1036 years before his visit in 1860. His calculations were based on precipitation rates measured on site at this time against stable flow rates. He mentions reference to comparisons with The Great Geyser in Iceland.

1839-1841 One of the first Europeans to visit the Rotomahana area was Johann Karl Ernst Dieffenbach. He visited Rotomahana and the Terraces while on a mission for the New Zealand Company. Dieffenbach and his assistant Symonds travelled from New Plymouth via Mount Egmont (Taranaki) and Ruapehu and then around the shores of Lake Taupo. They then travelled north, partly following the Waikato River then east towards Kakaramea (Rainbow Mountain), reaching Rotomahana Lake late one evening. They camped overnight at the mouth of the Haumi Stream.

Dieffenbach left geological notes that gave clues as to why the lake levels varied. Because there were Pohutakawa trees around the lake, he speculated that the sea level had been much higher at some stage. It is more likely that the trees grew taller and propagated faster than the volcanic fallout accumulated. It has been observed that this species of tree has adapted to the changing environment over a long period of time.

He inspired wider interest in the Pink and White Terraces with his publications. When he had completed his short stay at Rotomahana, they continued north via Lake Tarawera and the Te Ngae Mission Station to Rotorua. Dieffenbach was employed by the New Zealand Company for this excursion, and also traveled extensively throughout the North Island, making notes on flora and fauna, which can be seen in his biography at the Alexander Turnbull Library.

When Dieffenbach completed his employment by the New Zealand Company he was forced to leave the country. His studies in the North Island were completed after he left New Zealand. When he attempted to re-enter New Zealand to continue his studies in the South Island he was refused entry.

1845-1870=== The Reverend Seymour Mills Spencer and his wife Ellen followed an ambition to carry out the role of missionary work in New Zealand. They were American and trained for missionary work in England. Spencer was posted to New Zealand to work under the missionary Thomas Chapman at the recently formed Te Ngae branch of the Church of England Mission. He was to take over the newly formed Taupo branch but due to scandal over Spencer's purported advances toward a Māori girl, the couple moved to Lake Tarawera. There they formed the first missionary post at Lake Tarawera; working with the local Māori they built a European-styled community called Te Wairoa. Spencer visited Rotomahana and Te Ariki many times during his 35 year term there. His work with the local Māori helped develop the area, and he was also instrumental in assisting explorers and traders in the vicinity. Seymour was reinstated to the church in 1850.

Te Wairoa became the starting point for tourists wishing to cross Lake Tarawera to the Rotomahana tourist attractions via canoe.

28–30 April 1859=== Ferdinand von Hochstetter carried out a geographic and geological survey of Rotomahana Lake and area at the request of the New Zealand Government. His Geographic and Geological survey was prepared in just three days on the lake but gave enough data to form the first map of the area.

Hamil: The White Terraces (lithograph, 1860)

This map, although not favoured by early scholars, has proven to be more accurate than several later attempts, although, as with other maps of the lake, the height above sea level was significantly incorrect in many locations. The relevant heights between lake levels and mountain peaks were in proportion, but varied as distance between reference points increased. Hochstetter was aware of this problem with using an aneroid device, and he advised several times in his original book Geology of New Zealand that the heights above sea level that he quoted were only as far he could measure due to variation in barometric preasures.

Hochstetter's studies and reports on terrace structuring in the Waipa and Rotorua areas reveal how the Terraces were formed, and he also made comments on the commercial possibilities of Rotomahana.

24 February 1860=== Alfred Patchet Warbrick was born near the lower pools of The White Terraces. His father, Albert Warbrick, a trader from Tauranga, had married Nga-Karauma, a Māori chief's daughter. Warbrick had been associated with the Pink and White Terraces from an early age, assisting Kate Middlemass who guided tourists and gave him his first bath in the lower White Terrace pools. He became a skilled boat builder and was involved in whale boat building before and after the 10 June 1886 eruption.

Being on the top of Maunga Makatiti on the night of the eruption, he had the best view of the eruption and sequence of eruption events. Warbrick was actively involved in rescuing many people affected by the eruption.

Warbrick later challenged Stephenson Percy Smith's declaration that the Pink and White terraces had been destroyed: and he held this view till his dying day.

Alfred Warbrick spent 45 years exploring and serving as a government guide in what was then referred to as the Wai-a-riki ("small water") country, never giving up on the hope that someone would listen to him, and encourage the Government of the day to uncover the Terraces and reinstate this eighth wonder of the world. He did manage to have a investigation authorised by the government. The investigation was carried out by Percy Smith who without proper justification again dismissed Warbrick's claim.

1872-1873=== Stephenson Percy Smith gave the impression that the mountain top was rough but showed no sign of volcanic vents in 1873 when he reported on his findings.

March 1881=== Dr. G. Seelhorst climbed Wahanga dome and the northern end of Ruawhai dome in search of a presumed falling star followed by reports of glowing and smoke from an area behind Wahanga. This ties in with reports of the first explosion at about 2:15 in the morning of the 10th June 1886, and lends credibility to the claim that Wahanga erupted first as suggested by Alfred Warbrick. Alfred Warbrick viewed the same event at the same time from the top of the adjacent hills.

1880 to 1886=== Sophia Hinerangi, sometimes known as Te Paea (Tepaea), became recognised as the principal tourist guide of the Pink and White Terraces and guided the tourists in the whaling boats from Te Wairoa to Te Ariki near Lake Rotomahana. Sophia took over as principal guide from the older Kate Middlemass in the early 1880s. Both guides are well documented for their involvement in guiding tourists to the Terraces. Kate Middlemass was instrumental in guiding Seelhorst to the alleged fallen star.Sophia Hinerangi was also the last guide to take tourists to the Terraces before the eruption. Sophia observed the pre eruption violence in the thermal wonderland and the disturbances to lake tarawera water levels days before the eruption.

1884=== In 1884 a surveyor named Charles Clayton was surveying for work in the Kawerau area and described the top of Wahanga dome as volcanic with several depressions, one being approximately 200 feet deep. This is proven true by recent semifluid magma flows consolidating on top of older scoria in the same area. Stephenson Percy Smith was involved in a pre-eruption survey of Mount Tarawera which was never finalised.

Later revelations were to prove that both were correct although Clayton's report showed that Smith had not investigated the top of Wahanga to the same degree as Clayton. It is known that there were caves on the south west edge of Wahanga and that the symmetry of the Wahanga peak was upset by the 1886 rift.

08:58, 24 June 2012‎ User:Andrewgprout

Replaced: discussion

• The history of European discovery and knowledge of these terraces and of the volcano which later apparently destroyed them, seems to me to be relevant. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks - I agree that the history of the Pink and white Terraces is important and that the history of Lake Rotomahana, Mt Tarawera, and Te Wairoa and its inhabtants especially the tourist guides are very worthy of mentioning in the article. To that end, I propose to make the following changes.

REMOVE paragraph 824AD

Ferdinand von Hochstetter estimated that the precipitation phase of the terraces began very close to 1036 years before his visit in 1860. His calculations were based on precipitation rates measured on site at this time against stable flow rates. He mentions reference to comparisons with The Great Geyser in Iceland.[2]

This has already been incorporated in the formation paragraph above - the only bit missing is the Iceland sentence. That can be included if anyone thinks it is necessary.

1839-1841 The Ernst Diffenbach bit.

Remove the information about his journey before getting to the Lake Rotomahana area and all of it after.

One of the first Europeans to visit the Rotomahana area was Johann Karl Ernst Dieffenbach. He visited Rotomahana and the Terraces while on a mission for the New Zealand Company.[4] Dieffenbach and his assistant Symonds travelled from New Plymouth via Mount Egmont (Taranaki) and Ruapehu and then around the shores of Lake Taupo. They then travelled north, partly following the Waikato River then east towards Kakaramea (Rainbow Mountain), reaching Rotomahana Lake late one evening. They camped overnight at the mouth of the Haumi Stream.

to

One of the first Europeans to visit the Rotomahana area was Ernst Dieffenbach. He visited Rotomahana and the Terraces while on a survey for the New Zealand Company.[4] reaching Rotomahana Lake late one evening and camping overnight at the mouth of the Haumi Stream.

Tidy up the geographical notes bit - remove own research that does not really make sense.

Dieffenbach left geological notes that gave clues as to why the lake levels varied. Because there were Pohutakawa trees around the lake, he speculated that the sea level had been much higher at some stage. It is more likely that the trees grew taller and propagated faster than the volcanic fallout accumulated. It has been observed that this species of tree has adapted to the changing environment over a long period of time.[3]

To

Dieffenbach left geological notes that gave clues as to why the lake levels varied. Because there were Pohutakawa trees around the lake, he speculated that the sea level had been much higher at some stage.

Remove all of the personal details of Dieffenbach's employment and immigration troubles - He saw the terraces once, he may be a big figure in formative NZ history but he is not a big figure here.

He inspired wider interest in the Pink and White Terraces with his publications. (says who)?? When he had completed his short stay at Rotomahana, they continued north via Lake Tarawera and the Te Ngae Mission Station to Rotorua. Dieffenbach was employed by the New Zealand Company for this excursion, and also traveled extensively throughout the North Island, making notes on flora and fauna, which can be seen in his biography at the Alexander Turnbull Library.

When Dieffenbach completed his employment by the New Zealand Company he was forced to leave the country. His studies in the North Island were completed after he left New Zealand. When he attempted to re-enter New Zealand to continue his studies in the South Island he was refused entry.[5]

That'll do to start with. Andrewgprout (talk) 05:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I have made the above changesAndrewgprout (talk) 07:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I note that my changes have been reverted without discussion. I'm disappointed by this lack of discussion. As I detailed above I fail to see any relevance in the information I had removed to the actual topic of the article. Andrewgprout (talk) 18:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Hochstetter Iceland and the 824 date

The 824 date is someones original research - 1860 Hochstetter's visit - 1036 = 824. This would almost be OK if the 1036 years was not a quote about someone else's (Forbes) age of the great Geyser in Iceland NOT the terraces. Hochstetter stated that the terraces were thousands of years old - This information is in the formation section, which the deleted section partially repeated anyhow. The quoted work is available on google books. Andrewgprout (talk) 09:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Alfred Warbrick

This is another person listed in the history part of this article who had some, but in reality very minor association with the terraces. And needs completely rewritten

It appears that although Warbrick did tell historian James Cowan that he was born at the terraces and had his first bath there, Te Ara says evidence does not really support this. His parents lived at Matata and later Tauranga. Alfred himself went to school in Auckland and then was apprenticed to a boat builder in Auckland. He did not move to the Tarawera area until until about 1885 - so about a year before the destruction of the terraces. Not the "from an early age" currently in the Article.

Warbrick is interesting because he marked a change from the terrace based guides of old to a new breed (and iwi) of guides showing the post eruption landscape. Some mention of this change should probably be made, plus Alfred's conviction that the terraces had not been completely destroyed in retrospect may be precient.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/2w7/1

Andrewgprout (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Alfred Warbrick gives a accurate account of the happenings of the eruption and his involvement and this is recorded by James Cowan, in Adventures in Geyserland. Wellington 1934.

The only error I can see is a date discrepancy on his journey from Makatiti to Rotorua.

R Keams version was a copy from this book and a lot of the reference given in this matter is now outdated. Please revert this change as it is not helpfull.Be carefull with quotes from Te ara. Herbyfitz (talk) 00:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - can you please explain a little further what is unhelpful. The born in the terraces bit is highly questionable and I don't think should be in this article. However I can see no reason it should not be (with appropriate cautions) mentioned in the Alfred Warbrick article. I plan on doing this but my time is limited.

The fact that Alfred saw Mt Tarawera erupt is interesting and is covered within the article, he did not however see the terraces destroyed from his position north of lake Tarawera so I'm not sure what else should or can be said (regarding the Pink and White terraces) without a degree of original research creeping in.

Te Ara references are appropriate references to cite in Wikipedia, these are written by expert professional historians and are thoroughly checked. If you think a reference is questionable, find a reference for the contradicting view and include that view in the article.

The article in Te Arawa is misleading and out of date. The Autobiography by Alfred Warbrick is accurate. There are several in accuracies in the european versions of this era. By the way his wife (Iripu) was with Patiti till he died. please ajust your ferernce to Warbrick as it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herbyfitz (talk • contribs) 02:51, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Andrewgprout (talk) 08:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

The riddle of the pohutukawa trees

Regarding -- Dieffenbach left geological notes that gave clues as to why the lake levels varied. Because there were Pohutakawa trees around the lake, he speculated that the sea level had been much higher at some stage. It is more likely that the trees grew taller and propagated faster than the volcanic fallout accumulated. It has been observed that this species of tree has adapted to the changing environment over a long period of time.[3]

I have checked Dieffenbach's original book on this because I just couldn't work out what was trying to be said. What Dieffenbach did say related to lake Tarawera specifically and what that meant to the formation of the whole centre of the North Island.

Pohutukawa trees usually only grow by the sea, within about 1km, except on some lakes in the Rotorua district. Dieffenbach was surprised to see Pohutukawa trees inland and wondered if this meant that the land the lakes were on had once been at sea level and the lakes had been formed when a branch of the sea and been uplifted. This in hindsight is not the situation but was good thinking. However it really has nothing to do with the P&W terraces. The "trees growing taller" bit, etc in the second sentence is just some ones own pet theory which does not appear to relate to what Dieffenbach was suggesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewgprout (talk • contribs) 04:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)Andrewgprout (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

There are at least 11 species of Metrosideros/ excelsa.The species flourishing around lake Tarawera is Kermadecensis and there is a clear indication that they exist in areas where there has been thermal activity and survive by racing thermal layers.Herbyfitz (talk) 03:04, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

March 1881

I am confused by what the "presumed falling star" is and who G Seelhorst is. This section is not referenced and I can find no reference to the star or Mr Seelhorst in any primary or secondary source. I am inclined to delete this if no proper reference is provided Andrewgprout (talk) 08:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC).

The story of the Falling star can be referenced in R keam's Tarawera, The star was never proved as such but the location where it was supposed to have landed is where the first signs of the eruption occured in 1886. Sealhorst investigated the incident and came up with zero results.The details of his climb suggest that if he was looking for thermal activity he may have taken a different approach. eg he was looking for burnt areas of bush.Herbyfitz (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Update 2024

I'm intending to update the 'Reappearance' section, to add references and take account of recent developments. You can find my proposed edit in my sandbox. Feedback welcomed! -- Jmc (talk) 19:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Glad to see the article getting some work! I've taken a very quick look and have a couple of broad thoughts. Firstly, I'm never a huge fan of the "In x year, this happened" format for paragraphs when I see it in articles, so I wonder whether it could be grouped more into general prose rather than a blow-by-blow account? I also wonder whether it'd be worthwhile expanding a bit more on the initial search for them and the history around that, as the first line feels a bit out of place before it immediately jumps to 2016. Turnagra (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Turnagra Thanks for your positive comments and suggestions. I'm pleased to get such prompt feedback since things seemed to have become quite moribund around here. I take both your points. I haven't wanted to make a radical restructure at this point, so i've stuck with the chronological approach of the current section. However, a more general approach could be of value - I imagine it might centre on the quest to establish the actual location of the terraces, both pre- and post-eruption. As for the abrupt jump from the first line to 2016, I'll work on expanding it to give a smoother segue.

--- Jmc (talk) 21:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I've edited my proposed updated 'Reappearance' section to take account of Turnagra's helpful feedback. Absent any further feedback, I'll now port it from my sandbox to the article itself. -- Jmc (talk) 21:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Bunn

Why is this person's self-published research so highly cited here?

• doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.32015.25765 - Self-published via ResearchGate
• doi:10.20935/AL5204 Self-published via Academia.edu
• doi:10.22541/essoar.171828450.06137345 - An unreviewed preprint
• doi:10.54517/st.v4i1.2174 - A predatory journal
• ISBN 979-8620348718 Self-published.

Plus several citations to Frontiers journals, which are rather dubious. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@Headbomb Thanks for taking these issues to Talk. Let's take them one by one.

Firstly, you say that "Lupine publishers is clearly a predatory publisher". What is your evidence for this?

-- Jmc (talk) 19:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Google is your friend. Or see Beall's list if you need an easily browsable list. Or Flaky Academic Journals. Take your pick. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:58, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@Headbomb Thanks for that.

Next issue: you ask "Why is this person's self-published research so highly cited here?" (I think you mean 'frequently'.) The reason is simply that Bunn has been of late the most active researcher in this field. -- Jmc (talk) 20:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

By consistently publishing in terrible journals, most of them predatory? Sounds like a fringe theorist that can't publish in regular journals. de Ronde et al. conclude against Bunn for a reason. This is WP:UNDUE content. 21:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC) Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Would tend to agree. Bunn's background as a self-described "polymath" who was "engaged in writing motorcycle engineering treatises, a biography and a military aviation unit history" doesn't necessarily mean his theories/work are flawed, but also means we should be careful about included self-published work without appropriate context. Particularly where Bunn appears to have a commercial interest in promoting his theories, i.e. through his company which apparently wants to excavate the terraces. At the moment the article favours Bunn's location theories and rejects other theories, which definitely seems WP:UNDUE. I T B F 💬 03:29, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Some of the preceding comments seem a tad OTT. The full picture is rather more nuanced:

1. "... consistently publishing in terrible journals ... a fringe theorist that can't publish in regular journals" :
   Bunn has been published in reputable journals: Journal of the Royal Society of New Zealand, Journal of New Zealand Studies.
2. "... the article favours Bunn's location theories and rejects other theories" :
   Due weight is given to researchers with differing theories as to location; the article itself rejects none. See pars 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 10.
3. "... Bunn appears to have a commercial interest in promoting his theories, i.e. through his company which apparently wants to excavate the terraces" :
   The evidence shows that the excavation project proposed by the social enterprise (non-commercial) company founded by Bunn (but to be operated by the Tūhourangi and Ngati Rangitihi Arawa hapū) was suspended in 2014.

Still, I grant that some of the references are in need of more reliable sources. I will provide those for references 36, 37 and 38, and do welcome discussion of the reliability of any other source.
-- Jmc (talk) 22:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I've now attended to the disputed references and consequently intend to remove the Unreliable sources tag. -- Jmc (talk) 19:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposed subhead change: 'Reappearance' > 'Location'

Although I authored the subhead 'Reappearance', I've never been happy with it, since the terraces in fact have never reappeared in the state in which they disappeared - or indeed in any state at all. What has taken place in the decades following their disappearance are attempts to locate them. The actual location of the terraces has been a matter of conjecture and determined research, as recounted in the 'Reappearance' section. Therefore, i propose that 'Location' (with its double meaning!) would be a more appropriate subhead. Comments welcomed! -- Jmc (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)