Talk:Pinxton Castle

Some sources

http://www.ecastles.co.uk/pinxton.html, http://www.pinxtonparishcouncil.co.uk/a-history-of-pinxton.html, https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1010025?section=official-list-entry, https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-2300-1/dissemination/pdf/071/DAJ_v071_1951_068-069.pdf, http://www.ecastles.co.uk/index.html, https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=MDR5890&resourceID=1023, https://her.derbyshire.gov.uk/Monument/MDR5890, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Gwrt_Moated_Site, https://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/803.html, Doug Weller talk 12:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Wrong castle

@Moxy: I really appreciate your helping here, but that's another castle. See the photos on my talk page for instance..Doug Weller talk 13:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

lol omg Moxy🍁 14:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Just checking

Doug - apologies, living in a house that is being rebuilt around us, is preventing me from spending as much time on here as I might like. Just wanted to check you are ok with me messing around directly? I can certainly put notes here if you'd prefer. It's just with things like the NHLE citation template, it's quicker to do it, than to explain it! Let me know. KJP1 (talk) 09:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• The first oddity which strikes is that the Historic England (HE) listing report says details of the 1950s excavation carried out by the Pinxton Archaeological Society are lost, and yet you have them! Aren't they G. E. Monk's Report in the Derbyshire Archaeological Journal? As an aside, and if you could be bothered, HE are pretty good at making minor alterations to their reports. The great Peter Vardy sends them updates all the time, arising from his amazing listed building lists. But they can only make minor amends. As the listing is a statutory document, anything major requires approval from the Secretary of State (in name at least) and that is much harder to obtain. KJP1 (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  @KJP1 Getting back to this in earnest. See [1]. "he excavations by the Pinxton Archaeological Society were conducted from 1951-4. They were not of a scientific nature and comprised sporadic digging to find walling, which was then followed. The plans made, photographs and sketches have been mislaid or lost."

  I'm in touch with the county archaeologists and hope they can help. Descriptions are contradictory and we have Scheduled monuments in Bolsover which calls it a castle, which seems pretty dubious and is sourced to [2] which has a lot of speculation. Agh. Doug Weller talk 13:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• I love the "casual visit" by Mortimer Wheeler in the Derbyshire CC report. That is definitely worth a mention.
• As per Hen Gwrt Moated Site, I tend to start with a History and then give a Description. One can do it the other way around, but I've found that readers (at least FA reviewers) prefer the "who/when/why" followed by the "what".
• On the point of contradictions, Hen Gwrt also has this. All the old sources, Joseph Bradney's A History of Monmouthshire from the Coming of the Normans into Wales down to the Present Time etc., claim that the manor was the home of Dafydd Gam. But there's actually not a scrap of evidence to support this, and all the modern sources say it's rubbishy local lore. So, I tend to just report the historical view, but indicate that it is not supported by modern research.
• As at Hen, you may want a section on archaeological investogations at the site. This is the record of the 1918 survey carried out by W. Stevenson, [3]. He was very prolific, [4]. Could he be this guy, W. H. Stevenson? Doubtful? My go-to on such matters is User:Richard Nevell, who knows a very great deal more than I do about this period. It would be worth dropping him a note in any event, as he will almost certainly be aware of any specialist sources on the site.
• The sources are certainly strong enough to support an article. There is some repetition, as is common, the Gatehouse Gazetteer basically reproduces HE's listing record. The Heritage Gateway record is the same. I've no idea whether you intend to take the article through any of the approval stages (GA etc.), but note that, certainly at FA, there is a suspicion of "local sources", parish newsletters etc., as it is generally felt they don't meet the RS requirements for fact-checking/editorial oversight etc. In this case, the Pixton Parish History looks rather good and provides some useful background on the village. I'd certainly use it, but it may be challenged.
• A History of Pixton - another question about this, who wrote the Castle section? I'm sure it's not the "local worthy" W. G. Barrett referenced at the start of the History section. I think it's the W. W. 1959 report referenced in Derbyshire CC's record. He was presumably the man from the Ministry of Works (United Kingdom), HE's predecessor. He is delightfully scathing about the Pixton Arch. Soc.s efforts!

KJP1's suggestions are spot on. I don't have much more insight, but that won't stop me waffling on.

The Archaeology Data Service has a scan of Stevenson's article: Stevenson, William (1918). "Pinxton Castle". The Derbyshire Archaeological Journal. 40: 78–84. doi:10.5284/1065737.

You probably already spotted that if you were looking at the Gatehouse Gazetteer, but I only checked the list after looking the PDF up myself.

The article lists him as William Stevenson, but I couldn't find anything more about him in that volume of the journal. He could be W. H. Stevenson but the Pinxton article doesn't appear in the bibliography by Harald Kleinschmidt. Omissions happen of course, and it's plausible but not conclusive either way.

The National Heritage List for England entry probably needs modifying since there is the short note on the 1950s excavations. It doesn't cover all the work as there were plans for the next year, and Heritage Gateway indicates that it was the detailed records that were lost.

Heritage Gateway mentions a geophysical survey in 1997 but gives no further detail. It doesn't appear on the Archaeology Data Service's website, and the 1994 investigations appear to have produced little of note (a desk based assessment followed by fieldwalking and trenching). The Pinxton and Normanton History Society has a Facebook page so I've messaged them in case they know about the geophys.

The earthworks show up reasonably well on Lidar which is available under an Open Government Licence. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that a Lidar image from one of those layers is already on Commons.—Odysseus1479 00:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Odysseus1479 and this article would be the first to use it. Excellent! KJP1 (talk) 06:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm about 95% sure that the William Stevenson who wrote about Pinxton is William Stevenson (Q51683442). His obituary says he lived in Alfreton from 1906 to 1921 and "dedicating the remainder of his years to his archaeological studies and to literary work, both antiquarian and technical". Alfreton is about four miles from Pinxton. Unfortunately I didn't spot an obituary in the Derbyshire Archaeology Journal which might clear this up so it's not a nailed on certainty but it's pretty likely.

And this William Stevenson is the father of W. H. Stevenson, so not far off first time round! Richard Nevell (talk) 23:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Richard Nevell - Good spot! I thought our W. H. Stevenson sounded a bit more like an archival historian than an archaeologist, but it’s interesting that I likely wasn’t so far out. Thanks greatly for your additional comments. I’m sure there is now enough as the basis for an interesting article. KJP1 (talk) 23:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1@Richard Nevell@Odysseus1479 Thanks. First, sure, mess around if you want. I haven't read all of the above but I have a paper copy of the Stevenson article I was able to purchase. I hope tomorrow or Friday I can read the above as carefully as it deserves. I really can't thank you all enough. Doug Weller talk 16:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I just notice the dates - I'm amazed I haven't looked at this for so long, sorry. I'll try to find a contact for Peter Vardy and ask about any updates. Doug Weller talk 16:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Richard Nevell You say the National Heritage List for England entry probably needs modifying since there is the short note on the 1950s excavations - but who would do that? I don't know why I didn't think of the Pinxton and South Normanton Historical Society FB page. I've even posted to that in the past. I looked for the archaeological society but that's defunct so far as I can tell. Doug Weller talk 18:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the Castle section of the History of Pinxton in part the same as these? With the two Monk articles and the 1918 Stevenson article as sources. Doug Weller talk 19:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm hoping to get a video taken last month. Found someone on the FaceBook page who posted one. Doug Weller talk 19:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to keep an eye on this if that's ok. Don't want to take the wind from Doug Weller's sails but I'll help as I can. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  @DIYeditor Finally getting past my writer's block or whatever held me up. Doug Weller talk 13:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  Great. Will continue to watch this page. —DIYeditor (talk) 10:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

  @DIYeditor@KJP1@Odysseus1479@Richard Nevell I'm stuck on using, as I was advised to do, [5] as my source for the current view, specifically for the description. It's hard to get enough description into the article and avoid copyvio. Thanks Doug Weller talk 16:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  Doug - really sorry. I did notice your earlier ping, but the builders are a bit troublesome just now! I shall take a look tomorrow. It can indeed be tricky to take, say, the Historic England listing, and render it into non-copyvio prose, particularly as they can be stuffed with technical terms. I’ll see what I can suggest. KJP1 (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  @KJP1 Thanks, that's great. Doug Weller talk 08:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  @KJP1 Thanks. Went there today while my car was getting its annual safety test. Bad idea. Struggled to get over a bar protecting the steps (the stile was too much for me), coming back barely was able and scratched my leg. Couldn't find the easy access I did in April because of all the bush so went the hard way, over I don't know what, but really not very safe for someone 81 with Parkinson's. Couldn't see much as the area where I was was full of trees. On this lidar image[6] I came in from the north. See this map[7] - off the small roundabout there are the stairs I mention. April I was able to get access from the southwest - see the red dashes marking a trial but I couldn't find the entrance. I may try again with my wife. I'm not sure where the motte actually is, I'll print out the lidar and look at the description again. I wonder if it would be possible and legal to mark up the lidar? Doug Weller talk 12:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Doug Weller: I don’t think there would be any copyright issues, assuming appropriate attribution per the OGL. WP:OR might be more of a concern, depending on the clarity & thoroughess of the available verbal descriptions. The coördinates of the Geograph photos may help. At any rate I’d be happy to collaborate on some type of site plan, whether or not it includes the Lidar image.—Odysseus1479 19:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Odysseus1479 That would be great. Geograph photos? I think I photographed the motte today (found the right entrance) (and in April). There are already photos on Commons but I need to figure out how to add mine in the right format. It would be good to have a gallery identifying the photos. Doug Weller talk 19:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  The pictures in your UT thread archived at User talk:Doug Weller/Archive 66#My draft User:Doug Weller/Pinxton Castle provide coördinates that may be possible to correlate with the site descriptions. Three of the four have distinct camera and object locations. (ISTR your saying the vegetation has been cut back, so newer photos might well show more that those, which are from 2006 & ’12.) If your camera saves images in JPEG format, they can be uploaded to Commons as is.—Odysseus1479 20:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Odysseus1479 They are. I’ll upload them today if I’m ok. Damn chemo infusion right now is unexpectedly uncomfortable. Doug Weller talk 11:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Odysseus1479 I've created a category for Pinxton Castle on Commons and added it to some images I found plus one I took yesterday. I've got 12 on my computer some of which are duplicates and am unsure which to upload and how to name them. Is there a way I can put them say in Google documents so that you can see them and advise me? Or an other easy way? Email may be too much for you, I've got a silly amount of broadband. And of course easier to see if they are in one file somehow, like Documents. Doug Weller talk 15:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  I’ve de-orphaned the Commons cat. (I was debating whether or not to include it in Ruins in Derbyshire, but since there’s so little above ground I opted for Archaeological Sites.) I’ll email to discuss logistical details.—Odysseus1479 21:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  I've put two of the images on the page. I don't necessarily think what I did should be the "last word", however. There are layout issues that can be quibbled with, and I realize one might want to add more images in the form of a gallery, instead of the way I did it. One thing that would potentially help with layout would be to make the map that's at the bottom of the infobox smaller; I couldn't figure out how to do that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Doug - first, take a bit more care of yourself, your stile-vaulting days are behind you! Even with the assistance of Mrs Weller. Do you leap-frog over her, a la Colditz? She must be very understanding. Second, I've had a first stab at fleshing out the Description. I have heavily editing/filleted the HE entry as I think they go in for rather more detail than is suitable for our articles. It certainly needs more work, but see what you think. As I indicated in the edit summary, if you don't like it, or the IB, just revert - I won't be in the least offended. I shall take the "In use" template off now and you can have a bash. I'll return to it later today of tomorrow. KJP1 (talk) 13:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Well Doug - as ever, there is more that could be done, but personally, I think it's good to go as a Start Class article. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

p.s., only when I looked closely at the map, did I realise its proximity to Annesley Woodhouse, the Nottinghamshire village where my grandfather was born. Small world. KJP1 (talk) 08:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1 So it is. Unless there's a good reason not to, I'll leave this talk page, just adding a proper talk header and wikiprojects, etc. In a few hours. You and @Tryptofish have been marvellous. Glad my is/are error was caught, amazed I did that! Doug Weller talk 12:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1 We visited a safer way, with the dogs. I think the photo I took, dogs and all, was the motte. Doug Weller talk 13:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

More sources

Field walking 1993 [8] located fringes Sherwood Forest, Castles and landscapes : an archaeological survey of Yorkshire and the East Midlands PhD, I have copy, p252 Doug Weller talk 10:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Any ideas for a dyk hook?

Just back from chemo, my arm feels bruised and despite great sleep last night tired. It would be nice to get this to dyk but my only experience there is arguing against fringe dyks dealing with archaeology. Doug Weller talk 14:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn’t seem to readily lend itself to a hook:

• DYK that Pinxton Castle may be an early example of a fixer-upper with its Norman motte-and-bailey castle repurposed as a medieval manor house? [Source - HE listing]
• DYK that Sir Mortimer Wheeler visited Pinxton Castle to look at potsherds? [Source - HE Pastscapes entry]
• DYK that Pinxton Castle may have been home to a Sherwood Forest ranger? [as above]

That’s the best I can presently come up with. KJP1 (talk) 17:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

p.s. Could the “unusual” nature of the moat being within the perimeter, rather than forming part of it, give us something? But it’s a pretty specialist feature. KJP1 (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

That’s the first thing I thought of, and I don’t think it’s very esoteric: in popular imagination the stereotypical or ‘storybook’ castle, unless sited on a crag or hilltop, is surrounded by a moat and accessed by a drawbridge. (Something like Bodiam Castle with conical roofs on the towers.) So I think DYK that at Pinxton Castle, the moat was inside the walls? could raise a non-specialist eyebrow or two.—Odysseus1479 18:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish..? Sounds ok to me. Doug Weller talk 19:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

So, something like:

• DYK that the moat at Pinxton Castle stands within the perimeter walls, rather than surrounding them?

I’m sure one of you could make it a bit snappier! KJP1 (talk) 19:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think the placing of the moat is the right way to go. (I had suggested DYK at Doug's talk, and I'd be happy to help with the process. If Doug would rather not deal with the quid pro quo review, I'm willing to do it.) Here is my suggested snap-ify:

• ... that the moat around Pinxton Castle was inside the perimeter walls, rather than outside?

--Tryptofish (talk) 22:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish missed this. I’d like that but I’m not sure what you mean by doing the reviews. Shall I nominate it tomorrow ? Doug Weller talk 20:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

By review, I mean WP:QPQ. But if you make the DYK nomination yourself, and if this is your first nomination, that requirement is waived. I was offering to do the nomination, but if you'd like to do it yourself, that would be very good. Please feel free to go ahead with that, if you want. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish@Odysseus1479@KJP1 DYK has a field for additional authors. Happy to share the "glory"! Doug Weller talk 09:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll go with whatever is the group decision, but I think it would be nice for you to have the spotlight to yourself. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hey man im josh talk 17:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the moat around Pinxton Castle was inside the perimeter walls, rather than outside?

• Source: [9] "The site at Pinxton is fairly unusual in that the moat is located inside a larger fortified enclosure."

• Reviewed:

Created by Doug Weller (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Doug Weller talk 10:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC).

• Hi Doug Weller, nice article, review follows: article moved to mainspace on 3 July and exceeds minimum length; article is well written and cited inline throughout to reliable sources; I didn't spot any overly close paraphrasing and text taken from the source has been appropriately quoted; hook fact is interesting, mentioned in the article and checks out to source cited; no QPQ required. Looks fine to me - Dumelow (talk) 11:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Huge backlog. I'm afraid I haven't added other authors but I probably still can. Just wanted to make sure it was nominated in time. Doug Weller talk 10:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

My images are now on Commons

[10] Doug Weller talk 13:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for help with the photos.

I’m really pleased and lucky to have visited the site in April after it was cleared and on a good day. Doug Weller talk 19:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Information from one of the county archaeologists about my photos

"Most of those seem to show the moat and enclosed manorial site within. The mound (potential motte) is visible on numbers 1 and 17. The HER record suggests there may have been a fishpond ‘in the northern part of the wood’ and the historic mapping shows a depression towards the NE corner (possibly on the LiDAR too) which could be – I’m not sure whether this appears in any of the photos." Doug Weller talk 15:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

They meant 7, which we are using. Doug Weller talk 16:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)