Talk:Pipa xing

Copyvio

@VocalIndia: The English translation was lovely, but unfortunately it was also a copyright violation and I had to remove it. I'm going to request a revdel. If - by any chance - you know someone on the wiki who can translate into English from 9th century Chinese, they could put up their own version. It's nice to have some poetry in an article about a poem. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 15:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear @Wikignome Wintergreen: Thank you for your pretty work, but I don’t think that is copyright violation. I found that the original creator content taken from Pipa, see that page's edit history for attribution (WP:CWW). If you copy from another article you have to attribute the source of the content as explained in WP:CWW. If you want to know more this matter, the senior editor Onel5969 will explain you. Thank you. I really respect to your ce works on Wikipedia. VocalIndia (talk) 16:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@VocalIndia: Then there are also copyright violations on that page, which I'll look into. The English translation was taken from this website and is copyrighted. Unless it's been released (in writing, sent to Wikipedia) by the translator, we can't have it here. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 16:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I still do not think. The lyrics of this poem are from thousands of years ago! These are satisfies under PD-Old license of Wikipedia. Even if it is a copyright violation, it may be a minor by copying by a few content. However the admin will decide this matter. VocalIndia (talk) 17:11, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the poem is old and not under copyright, but the translation is from 2002. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 17:15, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I also want to mentions @Hut 8.5:, an admin/copy vio cleaner who teaches me about copyright rules, and @Hzh:, a senior editor who has major contributions on Pipa. Dear Hut and Hzh I would appreciate if you could provide your opinion on above case. VocalIndia (talk) 17:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows to copy a few. Just copying a few lines (violation unlikely 24.8% on Copyvio Detector [1]) does not mean that "they are violating." Imv. VocalIndia (talk) 17:34, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where "a few" crosses the line into "too many." I read WP:CV and it doesn't mention exceptions. I know we can quote people at some length and attribute it to them without violating copyright, but I don't know how that applies here. I'll let someone more experienced decide; this is way outside my wheelhouse, I'm just a copy edit gnome. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 17:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, VocalIndia, and the compliment. I wouldn't call myself a senior editor, just try to help out where I can. Yes, while not a copyvio issue (this is most likely a WP:MIRROR issue, when you copy from another WP article, you must provide attribution, see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Hope this helps, and thanks for your contributions on WP. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Onel5969. It's not really about copying from another article on Wikipedia. It's about content from an outside source that was copied to another Wikipedia article, then recopied here from that article, which is when I noticed the issue. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 17:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. My dude Wikignomr also tagged copyvo on Pipa. Let's wait admin's opinion and decision. Cheers VocalIndia (talk) 18:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I think the original copier copied a few lyrics from this website from 2002, however just it is minor copy. He/She did not copy many sentences! VocalIndia (talk) 18:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

(<-- Ooh, I finally figured out how to do this zig zag thing) I think the relevant policy is this one, but after reading the page I'm still confused. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 18:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

That translation has been there for over 10 years, but I don't know who added it. Generally a brief quote is permissible, although it should be made clear that it is a quote from somewhere else. In this case, it may be a violation since it is not a quote. Anyway, it's not a big issue to remove it, it's a nice translation, it may not read as nice if I translate it myself, but I can give it a go. Students were pretty much required to study the poem at school in my time, I just need some time to think about how to translate it (I expect there would be some similarity with the deleted one given that it is based on the same poem, and there are only so many ways you can translate the words). Should anyone else want to query it, the other poem in the Pipa article is one I translated myself, it is probably an adequate translation (I can do translation of short passages, but longer passages I may struggle a bit). Hzh (talk) 19:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I got worried about the other translated poem in the pipa article, but when I took a closer look I saw it was... um... not quite as professionally polished? Still good, don't get me wrong, but not at the really excellent quality of the first one, so I figured it was probably done by One of Us. Thank you very much for offering to translate; it's a beautiful poem. I'll offer to help polish the result but you're free to not take me up on that (what do gnomes know about poetry?). Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 19:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

If I may be so bold, could you also translate the "famous line" that was formerly rendered in this article as, "the same people who have fallen from the end of the world, why do we have met before"? It was nonsensical and I tried to clean it up myself, but based on the translations I've looked up, I think I just mangled it in a different way. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 19:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

This a a well-known line, so there should be some translations around. I found one here - [2]. Personally I wouldn't translate it the way it is done in the book, 天涯 means horizon with the figurative meaning of "far away at the edge of the world", 沦落 means something like "fallen from grace" or "fallen into hard time" or "in reduced circumstances", so that translation of the first part would be something like "both of us wandered at the edge of the world, fallen from grace". The second part may be OK, something like "we don't need to be acquaintances to have this chance meeting". It might be better to look for a better translation in a book and use that - it should be OK to use a translation from books as a small quote. Otherwise I'll see if I can fix it later.

As the deleted poem, we'll wait and see what the decision is on the possible copyright violation. It is possible that using a small part of the translation could be OK as along as it is attributed, but it doesn't matter if it is regarded as COPYVIO, I've translated a few poems and ancient text before in WP articles. Hzh (talk) 21:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd rather use something in our own words, to be safe. Does this sound accurate? "Both wandering at the edge of the world, fallen from grace, it is no wonder that we strangers have met by chance." Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 21:42, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure. The writer is trying to reassure that pipa player, a stranger and a woman (therefore may be concerned about talking to men she doesn't know), that they have suffered the same fate and understand her even though they don't know each other. However, you can try to add something first, and I'll see if I can adjust it later (I probably need a think about how to phrase it). Hzh (talk) 22:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I'll make that a placeholder for now. And looking closer at the page history, I see that the copied bit wasn't added until later; the first version was this, which (I hope) isn't stolen from anywhere: "Thick strings splash like sudden rain, Fine strings vibrate softly like a whisper, Splashing and gently vibrating: a mishmash of strumming, Big and small pearls pinning down on a jade plate." Maybe you can use that as a starting point? Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 22:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks. This version sounds like a more accurate translation, the third line of the deleted one, "Chattering and pattering, pattering and chattering", is more of an impressionistic translation rather than the literal translation of the actual line, while "Splashing and gently vibrating: a mishmash of strumming" is somewhat closer to what's written. I'll think about how to write it. Hzh (talk) 22:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I've put the Chinese text and that original translation back on the page as another placeholder, since it's not too bad and better than nothing. I'll put it on the pipa page too. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 23:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Just as a note, the website/translation being mentioned appears to be under copyright so I have hidden the diffs per WP:RD1. Primefac (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I think we've worked it all out then. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 20:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)