Talk:Pittsburgh railroad strike of 1877

Physical setting

@Parkwells:, May as well start talking here. Hard to follow conversation via hidden markup and edit summaries.

Yes, a description of the physical setting would be helpful. McCabe often mentions vague geography like "the hill". I assume he is referring to middle hill. Unfortunately there are no topographical maps of the city on Wikimedia. The closest map I can find time-wise is from 1885 It isn't topographical, but it does show the railways, and I wonder if some image editing might not be able to highlight areas like the railway yards, maybe an approximation of middle hill, maybe 22nd street as it is a reference point for the extent of the fire on the morning of the 22nd. TimothyJosephWood 12:52, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Also, if you can find anything, McCabe constantly uses Millvale Station as a reference point. So far I haven't found anything to indicated exactly where that was. TimothyJosephWood 14:08, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, was just trying to jot down some ideas as I saw them; will use this page. This 1902 image shows the railyards on the south side of the Allegheny (to the right) and in relation to the rivers and downtown.

Pittsburgh in 1902. Lithograph by Thaddeus Mortimer Fowler.

They had been developed there as it was flatland and relatively empty as railroads were constructed into the city. Worker housing was developed south of the yards. Can't remember the name of the hill behind this area; the Duquesne Incline is located to the west I think.Parkwells (talk) 14:24, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Pretty sure the hill is Middle Hill. Also I am dropping public domain images as I find them to the Wikimedia category for this article. Just FYI. TimothyJosephWood 14:28, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Also you can use the |200px| modifier in the File: syntax to resize images. So for example, adding |100px| will make the image quite small. Generally widths greater than |550px| shouldn't be used as they muck up users on mobile devices. Again, just FYI. TimothyJosephWood 14:33, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Example
Size at 100px Size at 550px

Thanks for advice. Found the image at the Pittsburgh article and just copied it.Parkwells (talk) 14:47, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that if you find a source that were published prior to 1923 and the author died prior to 1946, then the work is in the public domain and we can use any illustrations. Since this topic is so old, there seems to be a lot of sources that meet this criteria. TimothyJosephWood 15:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

See the Harper's Weekly Aug. 11 article (External links) - several powerful illustrations, from which batch the two in the article come.Parkwells (talk) 02:11, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Damages, deaths, whatever that section ends up being called

I inserted a note there. Feel free to do similarly. No need to hide text right now. The construction template at the top of the page gives some leeway in mucking up the article in the interest of improving it.TimothyJosephWood 15:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

It looks as if it will be difficult to come up with accurate numbers for casualties unless a later historian was successful with records. Most of the dead seem to be strikers and families (the first 20 killed were described as men, women and children, including 3 children). Three National Guard were described as killed on their way out of the city, but much is undifferentiated.Parkwells (talk) 18:56, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

McCabe says at least three of the roundhouse soldiers were killed. I'm getting a bit tired of him as a sources and ready to move on to another. But he's been good. Also I got probably ten pics from it on commons. TimothyJosephWood 10:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Claremont

See List of Pittsburgh neighborhoods. Was Claremont renamed? TimothyJosephWood 15:59, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find Claremont at all; the link that looked like a neighborhood was dead; I've found a reference to a Clermont Crag in the mountains. So who knows what McCabe was referring to. Harper's Weekly said the troops removed to Sharpsburg (which is about 5 miles NE of Pittsburgh north of the Allegheny River. This sounds right - makes more sense than Sharpsburg, MD.)Parkwells (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I have posted on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pittsburgh. Maybe someone there can point us in the right direction. TimothyJosephWood 19:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

See response here. TimothyJosephWood 11:48, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

(Note to self for later)

McCabe blames the people of Pittsburgh for the riot. Pages 109-111. TimothyJosephWood 16:50, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

If you check the Harper's Weekly article (8/11/1877) in External links, you will see that McCabe copied sections verbatim in his account - about the crowd and looting. (Did he cite them?) Maybe we should quote it directly rather than through him. Parkwells (talk) 18:05, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

May not be a bad idea. My original plan was to do an examination/exposition/cause/whatever section similar to that on Scration (although admittedly, the one over there could probably use some work). McCabe is pretty heavily (overwhelmingly) relied upon right now, but that was really just to give structure for adding other sources. TimothyJosephWood 18:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

• Another [1]

Possible alternative names

• Railroad riot instead of railway (McCabe, p. 121) TimothyJosephWood 12:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
• Great railroad strike

Sheriff

According to this, apparently the sheriff was killed at some point. Need a more specific source. TimothyJosephWood 19:14, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

No photos of the monuments in Pittsburgh

Under the heading Commemorations, the article mentions several monuments to the strike. However, there are no photos of any of these. I hope somebody in Pittsburgh can take some photos and upload them for use in this article. Pete unseth (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Hey Pete unseth. That gets tricky, because the US does not have freedom of panorama that covers things like monuments and statues. For example, for the image of the historical marker on Baltimore railroad strike of 1877, I actually had to email the Maryland Historical Society and get their permission to use it. GMG^talk 19:23, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't believe such laws were meant to prevent photos of such objects that are not artistic but are meant to be seen, meant to be a source of learning for all.Pete unseth (talk) 17:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Source check via script

@GreenMeansGo:

• Inconsistent use of Location parameter (6 with; 17 without);
• Lloyd, John P. (2009). "The Strike Wave of 1877". Missing ISBN;
• Report of the Committee Appointed to Investigate the Railroad Riots in July, 1877, Harrisburg:Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;
• Dacus, Joseph (1877). Pub. too early for ISBN, perhaps needs |orig-year=; Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;
• McCabe, James Dabney; Martin, Edward Winslow. Missing Publisher; Missing Year/Date;
• Klein, Phillip; Hoogenboom, Ari (1980). Missing ISBN;
• Commons, John; Saposs, David; Sumner, Helen; Mittelman, Edward; Henry, Hoagland; John, Andrews; Selig, Perlman; Don, Lescohier; Elizabeth, Brandeis; Philip, Taft (1921). History of Labour in the United States: Nationalisation (1860–1877) Upheaval and reorganisation (since 1876). Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC; Also suggest using |display-authors= set to 3;
• Quinn, David (July 15, 2014). Missing ISBN;

Skrabec, Quentin (2012). The 100 Most Significant Events in American Business: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 81. Inconsistent Location (6 with; 12 without); Missing ISBN;

• Beik, Mildred (2005). Missing ISBN;
• Couvares, Francis (30 June 1984). Missing ISBN;
• Currarino, Rosanne (12 January 2011). Missing ISBN;
• Archdeacon, Thomas (1 March 1984). Becoming American. Missing ISBN;
• Locomotive Engineers Journal, Volume 54. Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. 1920. p. 1920. Inconsistent Location (6 with; 17 without); Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. doi or OCLC; the year and the page number are the same? that's a coincidence. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Fixed the location and the ISBN issues. As the alternate identifiers for publications too old for ISBN, I really have no idea whatsoever how to go about finding them. GMG^talk 04:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pittsburgh railroad strike of 1877/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ed! (talk · contribs) 02:43, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Looking at this one. —Ed!^(talk) 02:43, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria) (see here for this contributor's history of GA reviews)

1. It is reasonably well written:

   • Background is an empty section. Did you intend to make it a top level headline and then the section below it to be a subhead?

    Done GMG^talk 03:51, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

   • "Approximately 18,000 businesses failed between 1873 and 1875" -- Across the US I assume, and not just in Pittsburgh?

    Done GMG^talk 04:39, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

   • "In 1877, there was a prevailing feeling in Pittsburgh that the city was suffering at the mercy of unfair pricing from the Pennsylvania Railroad. The railroad was blamed for costing the city its preeminence..." watch for weasel words here. Who had the feeling? The workers? The public? Who blamed the railroad? The politicians? The media?

   Maybe done as best I can. The source summarized simply "Pittsburgh felt" without further qualification as far as the demographic or the industry. GMG^talk 04:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

See The Great Strikes of 1877 (David Omar Stowell) p4. Stowell is good on the non-labor causes of resentment of the railroads; wrote a whole book on it, which, unfortunately for this article, was centered on Upstate. Anmccaff (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

The Remaking of Pittsburgh: Class and Culture in an Industrializing City by Francis G. Couvares also seems to make some useful content for this. Anmccaff (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

1. • "one crew, led by Conductor Ryan" -- Is Ryan a surname? A first name?

   Similarly just following the source here, which says only "Conductor Ryan". GMG^talk 04:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

   • "The Lieutenant Governor, through General Pearson," -- Any first name on him?

    Done GMG^talk 05:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

   • "Sherriff" "Lieutenant Governor" and "General" are not proper nouns, so shouldn't be capitalized unless they're directly before a name.

    Done GMG^talk 05:58, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

   • Consistency: Seeing several "AM" and "am" references with respect to time.

    Done GMG^talk 06:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable:

   • Ref needed: "Governor John Hartranft, en route to California at the time, was notified of the situation and turned back toward Pennsylvania. With freight movement stopped, the economy of the entire region was brought nearly to a standstill."
   • Ref needed: "The halt in freight and passenger traffic in the region caused widespread economic and supply problems."
   • Ref needed: "On September 23, 1997 a historical marker was placed at the corner of 28th Street and Liberty in Pittsburgh, commemorating the location of the July 21, 1877 shootings in connection with the strike and ensuing riots."

    Done GMG^talk 06:39, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage:

   Plenty of wider context in the article.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy:

   Pass No problems there.

5. It is stable:

   Pass No problems there.

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:

   Pass Images appear to comply with copyright.

7. Other:

   • Dab links, dup links, external links tools show no problems.
   • Copyvio tools shows a yellow light, but I suspect it's catching the quotes in the article, which are properly cited.
   • Source Spotcheck Ref 14, Ref 18 and Ref 22 all line up with what is quoted in the article.

On Hold Pending some fixes. 03:38, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

OK, the article looks good to me now, passing GA. —Ed!^(talk) 01:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Additional comments by Lingzhi

To check as many errors as possible in the references and/or notes, I recommend using User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck in conjunction with two other scripts. You can install them as follows:

• First, copy/paste importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); to Special:MyPage/common.js .
• On the same page and below that script add importScript('User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck.js');. Save that page.
• Finally go to to Special:MyPage/common.css and add .citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */.

When you've added all those, go to an article to check for various messages in its notes and references. (You may need to clear your browser's cache first). The output of User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck is not foolproof and can be verbose. Use common sense when interpreting output (especially with respect to sorting errors). Reading the explanatory page will help more than a little. The least urgent message of all is probably Missing archive link; archiving weblinks is good practice but lack of archiving will probably not be mentioned in any content review. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:33, 16 February 2018 (UTC)