Talk:Plants used as herbs or spices

Copied from the previous "live" version of this page:

Please add to this... It is obviously but a bare beginning. If some ambitious soul can add a picture column, that might be good. And, obviously, it needs a *lot* more entries. Tamtrible (talk) 02:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Uses

The "uses" section is not intended to be an exhaustive list, there are usually only a few terms appropriate to use:

Culinary: it is used to flavor food products (don't include use in teas, except where it's also used to flavor other things)

Medicinal: it is intentionally used to create (or allegedly create) some health effect in users, usually in the form of some concentrate or extract (including teas).

Fragrance: it is used to add a pleasing scent to cosmetics or the like, and/or burned to create a pleasant smell

Ceremonial: it is used in some religious, magical, or other culturally significant ritual. Only count cases where it is in some way an important part of the ritual, rather than something fairly incidental (eg if a ritual commonly involves eating some food often but not always flavored with a particular herb or spice, that's a culinary use, not really a ritual one)

edit: I used "Ritual" without thinking, and I think that's 1. equally valid, and 2. shorter, so I'm going with it. Tamtrible (talk) 00:47, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

second edit: Try to only include "ritual" if it is used in some way that involves ingesting it, or rubbing it on the body, or inhaling it. Tamtrible (talk) 16:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

If you think there is some important use I have not included in this list, please mention it here and we can discuss adding it to the acceptable list of uses. Tamtrible (talk) 09:51, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Additional one, because it's a bit different from "culinary" *or* "medicinal":

Tea: it is used to make a hot beverage, by steeping it in water--only use for things often drunk as tea because people like the taste, rather than things drunk as tea almost always to achieve some medical effect.

and one more: dye: used primarily to color (rather than flavor) food or beverages (possibly also other things, but only include things on this list if they are used as a *food* dye) Tamtrible (talk) 05:26, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

To anyone else editing this page: please put the uses in order, as per the description on the main page. Eg if something is used culinarily, as a tea, and as a medicine, put them in that order, even if its primary use is as a (culinary) tea or as a medicine. Tamtrible (talk) 03:36, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Small additional clarification: only list something as "tea" if it is brewed by itself (or as the primary component in a blend) to make a tea, at least some of the time. Something used as a minor ingredient in a tea blend (eg jasmine in "jasmine tea", which typically has a base of actual tea) would count as "culinary". Tamtrible (talk) 06:49, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Should this be here?...

Tamtrible, Hi Tamtrible, this was deleted by consensus.[1] Moving back to mainspace would probably be seen as disruptive. I think you'd be better off trying to improve the content of List of culinary herbs and spices, such as adding references to reliable sources and possibly converting to table format to give more information. (t · c) buidhe 05:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I am... hesitant to, effectively, butt into a list I have never contributed before and replace it with something completely different. Also, this page 1. is focusing on the plants more than the resulting herbs and spices, and 2. does not only include *culinary* herbs and spices. You will note that I already have several that don't have "culinary" as one of their listed purposes, and there will be more to come. But I am not going to try to add it to mainspace until it is a *lot* more robust. Tamtrible (talk) 06:38, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Since this list is a WP:FORK of List of culinary herbs and spices, it cannot ever become an article - if it goes into mainspace, it's an illegal fork; and it can't stay as a draft forever doing nothing either. I suggest, Tamtrible, that you request its speedy deletion yourself, merging anything in it that you think you can defend against charges of not being suitably sourced (WP:RS) into that article before you do so. We can't have multiple parallel tracks of the same thing all over the place. Hope that's clear. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

It 1. does not only contain *culinary* herbs and spices (you will note, even with my limited knowledge, there are already several entries that do not have "culinary" as one of their purposes), and 2. is focused at least as much on the source plants as on their products. So I am going to keep working on it, for now. Tamtrible (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

What to include/not to include

Generally, only include things that are actually ingested as humans either as a (real or supposed) medical treatment, or a flavoring for food. You may also mention their *use* as a fragrance, or a ritual element, but generally it should not be on this list unless it or its (relatively simple) extracts actually go into human bodies at least some of the time.

Don't list things that are almost always eaten in relatively large quantities, rather than in small quantities as a flavoring for something else. That is, don't list things that are almost entirely salad greens, or grains, or vegetables, or other bulk ingredients, rather than strongly flavored minor components to other foods

Don't list things (which are not culinary herbs) from which some medicine is derived, unless it is also used more or less directly as herbal medicine--that is, either consumed whole, or used as a tea, alcohol extract, or the like.

Try to avoid listing herbal medicine for which there is not at least *plausible* pharmacology (that is, either known clinical effect, however mild, or the presence of some compound that has or appears to have some real effect on the human body). You can list a culinary herb's use as medicine if it is frequently used as such without plausible pharmacology, but don't list a plant which is only used as "medicine" with basically no evidence that it actually does anything useful.

Don't include things that are not plants, or at least of closely related taxa (I don't know if there are any seaweeds, for example, which count as herbs)

Currently, I'm basically just using the Wikipedia page for a given herb/spice/plant as the arbiter of whether it is used as a culinary herb or spice, a medicinal herb, or any of the other types of use I'm tallying. If you use any other source, please link it appropriately. Tamtrible (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Another thing to exclude. Don't include fruit (in the culinary sense, eg apples), unless the part used is something not normally eaten as a fruit (eg leaves, peel). Likewise, only include vegetables if it is a part (like the leafy part of celery) normally excluded when the item is eaten as a vegetable. Salad greens are... a bit tricky in that respect, use your own judgement. Tamtrible (talk) 02:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Ready for prime time...

It's not perfect yet, but I think this is robust enough, and different enough from the page it is an alleged fork of, to take to mainspace. Tamtrible (talk) 07:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Tamtrible! In future, the submission template goes on the draft itself, not the talk page. I've moved it for you this time. — Bilorv (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Hopefully I won't have to do this again... Tamtrible (talk) 07:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Title change? as per discussion on the help desk...

Quoted from the help desk comment:

@Tamtrible Wouldn't the article be better if called plants used as herbs or spices as with plants used as musical instruments? Someone looking for the new article would be unlikely to type "Table of...." into the search box. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull: I see it has already been moved, but looking at the content, this should clearly be moved to "list of..." That it is physically represented as a table does not mean this is "really" a list article. Don't worry about people typing "list of" or "table of", it's going to turn up in the search in any event. Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Maury Markowitz I agree with you that it's a list-type article but the OP seemed to want to distinguish it from list of culinary herbs and spices and my comment related to my view that Table of... was a bad idea. Maybe list of plants used as herbs or spices would be a better title but that's probably a discussion for a different venue. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:16, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

'ma copy this discussion into the talk page of said article. Valid discussion, that's probably the best place for it. Tamtrible (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The main options are "table of plants used as herbs or spices", "list of plants used as herbs or spices", or just "plants used as herbs or spices". I have no strong opinion. Anyone else? Tamtrible (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Should this be included or not?

as I go through the "plants used in herbalism" list, I'm running across some that I'm not sure if I should include or not. Figured I'd list 'em here, with a brief description of my thoughts, so someone else can maybe comment.

Nelumbo nucifera aka lotus. It's primarily used as a vegetable (basically every part of it seems to be edible), but it's also made into tea and used as an herbal medicine. Dried fruit is used as a tea-type beverage often enough that I decided it would be silly to list culinary fruits on this list as teas (unless the part used is something not typically eaten as a fruit), but vegetables are less commonly made into teas or equivalent beverages. Also, there's no evidence presented (at least, that I see) that any part of the lotus actually has any medicinal effect beyond being a relatively healthy food source.

Passiflora incarnata aka passionflower. Just don't have the brains right now to properly evaluate the validity of the "herbal medicine" claims about it.

Peganum harmala aka wild rue. Same issue, I probably shouldn't have tried to do this right now.

Piscidia piscipula aka Jamaican dogwood. Sounds like it's pretty toxic, is anyone actually using it as a direct herbal medicine (eg drinking it as tea) rather than using it as a source for purified compounds? Tamtrible (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I would think that the decision to include or not in this list should be based on info available from reliable sources, otherwise it can be considered WP:OR. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)