Talk:Plast

Requested move

• Ukrainian Plast → Plast — most common usage of the term, matches with the original Ukrainian article, and the current Plast disambig page has been renamed as a disambig page. — Chris 22:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Nightstallion (?) 08:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

attention tag

Scout should always be capitalized in this sense in English, and postal abbreviations for states need to be spelled out. Chris 00:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Done by User:vsevolod4 08 October 2006, although it should be noted that in Ukrainian language, proper nouns do not take capitals.

translation tag

A tag requesting translation from the Ukrainian article was removed on 08 October 2006 by User:vsevolod4 after extensive addition of translated material.

Vovkulaky merge

Stale

Proposed merge of Vovkulaky:

• support: as best I can see, Vovkulaky is a local group of Plast --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
• oppose: it is similar to Orden Khrestonostsiv and not a local group.-Phips (talk) 14:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Based on what? 50 members does not seem to suggest independent notability. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is not at all clear that this is a separate national Scouting organization; it appears that it is a local Scouting group of Plast. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It is one of the international "kureni" (sometimes referred to as "fraternities" or "sororities") and so a part of Plast.

It is not another Scouting organization.

These are group for Older Scouts (18-30) and Senior Scouts (30+).

But it is not a local Scouting group, because it is international.

It is a kureni like the Orden Khrestonostsiv, Chervona Kalyna,Chornomortsi.

The Orden Khrestonostsiv is really very similar to Vovkulaky. So why should the one have an article and the other not?-Phips (talk) 19:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• You're right, until we have well-written articles on all of them, we should create a Fraternities of Plast or something similar and combine them. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 00:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

One major issue is that terms such as "ulad", "oboznyy" and the like are not translated. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Chris. The term is kurin and in plural is Kurins. Taken from Plast.org. There they use the term Plast fraternities/sororities for groups such as the Orden Khrestonostsiv or Chervona Kalyna. http://www.plast.org/info/Ukrainian%20Scouting-PlastOrganization.htm

Maybe we should ask our Ukrainian Scout friend Yarko for help.-Phips (talk) 11:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Haven't seen Yarko around for a while, but there seems to be a lot of stuff at uk:Портал:Пластунство Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 15:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I will write him an e-mail.-Phips (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, thank you for inviting me to this discussion. Secondly, we should keep articles about Vovkulaky, Orden Khrestonostsiv, Lisovi Chorty etc. Because of complicated Ukrainian history, Ukrainian scouting, represented by Plast, from 1943-44 years developed in foreign countries. That's why Plastuny has it's organizations in few countries. One more thing about Plast structure. Plast is divided by age into 4 groups - Ulads. The youngest Ulads are similar to many scouting organizations - Novaky/Novachky (cub scouts and brownies, 6-12 years) and Yunaky/Yunachky (scouts and guides, 12-18). After 18-th birthday Plastuny has a choice -

a) finish scout education and leave his youth troop and whole organization
or
b) join Starshi Plastuny/Plastunky's troop (like Vovkulaky, Chervona Kalyna etc.) or stay in organization like 'free member' without any belong to any troop.
So, all that Vovkulaky, Orden Khrestonostsiv, Lisovi Chorty fraternities are just Plast troops for scouts older 18 (something like rover scouts). And the last thing - why are they are not international. As I mentioned, after WW2 Ukrainian scouting were developing abroad. Some Plastuny got to camps for DP-persons in Germany and decided ti live in West Germany, some moved to USA, Canada, Australia or Argentina. But they kept being scouts (remember, "Once a scout, forever a scout"? :)), founded Plast and Plast troops in their cities. And, of course, our immigrants stayed members of Vovkulaky or lisovi Chorty. Formally they belonged to Plast organizations in various countries, but stayed in touch with each other, organizing meetings for their members or Jamborees for all plastuny.
When SU felt and Ukraine got Independence Plast renewed his work. And some plastuns came back and "recruited" new members for their rover scout's troops. Well, is everything clear? :) --Yarko (talk) 07:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

@Yarko: I used international to stress out that they operate in different countries within Plast.-Phips (talk) 10:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yarko, can you help write more in the Vovkulaky article, to reflect this importance? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've sent a letter to Vovkulaky and their members from Canada promised either expand the article or send me just simple text. I belong to Lisovi Chorty kutin', so I have no idea what's going on in Vovkulaky kurin' :) --Yarko (talk) 08:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Vovkulaky is an international organization. I'm just curious - how would an organization that has members on 4 continents be considered "a local scouting group of Plast"? Dudes, relax - it's a work in progress, and it will grow. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm just curious - how would an organization that has only 50 members be considered notable? There's no "relax", notability has yet to be proven. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello, this article is about a group within a group. Vovkulaky have a 50 year history in Plast, most of the leaders of Plast in Ukraine today are Vovkulaky, most of the leaders of Plast in Canada are Vovkulaky, many of the leaders of Plast in the US are Vovkulaky, many of the leaders of Plast in Germany are Vovkulaky. It is a group rich in tradition and history. Unfortunately, real life sometimes does not permit one to add as much as one would like. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is just not clear as to its relationship to Plast and any other groups. If it is not clear to Chris and myself—who both have experience in Scouting outside the U.S.—then it is not going to be clear to the average reader. If the relationships and notability cannot be established in a short period, then it should be merged until it can grow in place and be split off again. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:14, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello, two points. First, again, there are only 24 hours in a day and unfortunately real world business is more important than Wikipedia. Even though there are many Vovkulaky in the world, every one has different strengths and therefore is engaged in different activities. I will expand the article as soon as I have the time.

Second, I think that the average reader will understand that this is an article about a group of Plastuny (Ukrainian Scouts). This article does not try to explain the relationship between Vovkulaky and Plast, Scouts International, or Scouting in general. There are lots of articles about the topics of Plast, Scouts International, and scouting in general. This is not one of them - it is about the Vovkulaky, and, humbly, a work in progress. Horlo (talk) 08:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• response okay, you've had three months of 24 hours. Time to merge this. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

For somebody who doesn't have time to improve this presently-feeble article, you're sure spending a lot of time yakking here. 50 counts as "many"? This article should explain the relationship between Vovkulaky and Plast, precisely because it is about the Vovkulaky, and does not explain why they are important. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)