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Talk:Race and ethnicity in the NBA

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

  This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hudaifah11.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:56, 18 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

  This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 10 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Arturo0910.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:56, 18 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

First Asian-born player

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Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
  Resolved
 – Fixed

Wang Zhizhi is not the first Asian-born player, Tom Meschery is the first Asian-born player. — MT (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, can change to first Chinese player.—Bagumba (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

NBL/ABA pioneers

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Latest comment: 12 years ago23 comments5 people in discussion
MOVE:

The article was moved from Players of color in the NBA to Race and ethnicity in the NBA by Gobonobo (talk · contribs) per the consensus below. Cunard (talk) 11:36, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Interesting topic for an article. It might be worth noting that there were a number of black players in the old NBL; check out the book They Cleared the Lane, among other sources. (I don't know if any specific guy is considered the first black player in the NBL; several came into the league at once.)

Also, there was a Cuban guy in the ABA, Al Cueto. (I don't know if he would count as a "person of color", though.) Zagalejo^^^ 04:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I can see a potential problem here; Latinos/Hispanics aren't necessarily "people of color"; many would consider themselves white. Maybe we should retitle the article Demographics of the NBA, or something like that. Zagalejo^^^ 04:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Anyone whose race is not "white" is a person of color. The broad numbers are based off of the study which makes the "person of color" designation, and individual mention of players is based on sources calling them something other than white. I think we are fine as long as we aren't doing WP:OR and relying on pictures of people's physical appearances. —Bagumba (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Well, my point is that someone can be Latino and fully white. (See White Hispanic and Latino Americans). I'm kind of curious which players the study considered "Latino". I went looking through the original report, but didn't see their criteria. Andres Nocioni could be considered Latino, but I don't think he'd identify himself as a person of color. (I'm not just basing it off his appearance; he has talked about his Italian heritage in interviews.) Zagalejo^^^ 18:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
NBL seems tangential—its actually confusing what part of "history" the NBA chooses to inherit based on the merged leagues. Still, sources are consistent with describing which blacks broke the NBA color barrier, and it does not "inherit" from the NBL as far as I have seen.—Bagumba (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
I just thought it might provide some interesting background info. Zagalejo^^^ 18:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Topic: I started noticing all this information when working on Jeremy Lin and Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game, and it seemed like it should be placed into a central location. I can see it growing with dedicated sections on blacks, Latinos, and Asians in the NBA. As for rename proposal, I'm not sure if there will be enough to write about white player's history. If needed, another option is to create a broader article that includes this one summary style as opposed to rename.—Bagumba (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
My main concern about the title is that classifying Latinos as "people of color" is somewhat problematic. We shouldn't just say that certain sources do so-and-so, because it is widely known that this is a complicated issue. (There was a lot of confusion about it during the last Census, for example.) We wouldn't necessarily have to have a whole section on white players. Zagalejo^^^ 18:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
In the ideal world, everyone is equal and this article is of no interest. That world does not exist (yet). "Minority" seems to have been replaced by "persons of color". While far from perfect, I think it's generally accepted. There's objections to use of "black" for reducing people to the color of their skin (when a lot of blacks are far from that actual color), yet it's a generally accepted term. There's objections to lumping multiple cultures under "Asian", yet it's also generally accepted. My point is that race, while a taboo subject of sorts, is the subject of multiple sources, even in the NBA. Almost any term used will have some objections, and we will need to use the most commonly used, neutral terms. We could just call this Demographics of the NBA, but it would dilute the fact that the article deals with race and not education, income levels, sexual preference, religion, etc. A weak "other stuff" argument is that its not IMO as xenophobic as List of foreign NBA players. Isnt everyone besides Native Americans in the United States foreign? I'm open to further suggestions, but I object to being more politically correct than is generally accepted if the alternative title is less precise.—Bagumba (talk) 19:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
It's not really about political correctness, though. It's a commonly-known fact that Latinos can be any race. "Latino" is a completely different kind of classification from "white", "black", "Asian", etc; it primarily refers to a shared language. (Some Latinos do consider their race to be "Latino", but not all.) Zagalejo^^^ 23:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
I see your point; race and ethnicity are often intermixed. To be more specific, "person of color" has become a euphemism in the US for non-Hispanic whites, or what was previously called "minorities". It doesn't seem Lapchick's study makes that fine distinction, as it has "white"–which I assume are non-Hispanic whites—and "Latino" categories. So while "Latinos" may or may not consider themselves "white", they are "persons of color" from the perspective of being historically disadvantaged in the US. While I see your concern, its a commonly accepted, if not slightly flawed term ... like anything dealing with race/ethnicity. The other alternative is to not mention Butch Lee, and leave the article for now to deal with blacks and Asians.—Bagumba (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
I too felt that Latino isn't really a "person of color" but I see your point. Are Race in the NBA, or Minorities in the NBA better titles? If Minorities in the NBA is the title, we can probably include LGBT players (not that I know of any, but if they exist, then they are minorities too).—Chris!c/t 20:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
"Minority", I believe, is an out of favor term these days. "Race" has the same problem for Latinos, as they are an ethnicity and not a race. LGBT seems unrelated to race/ethnicity, aside from them being subject to discrimination.—Bagumba (talk) 21:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Ok, if Latinos are an ethnicity, then what about Race and ethnicity in the NBA? I just feel that "person of color" is not a clear term since Latinos are like whites. And when you say color, people just think of color. People outside of US may not know why Latinos, who look white, is considered "person of color". Note also that Race and ethnicity in the United States Census not People of color in the United States Census.—Chris!c/t 21:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
I could support "Race and ethnicity in the NBA". (For the record, there has been at least one LGBT player: John Amaechi. I don't think we need to get into that in this article, though.) Zagalejo^^^ 09:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
So are there any objection to the renaming of this article?—Chris!c/t 01:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I'm going on vacation, so I'll stay out of this for now. I should have known anything to deal with race/ethnicity would be difficult to word :-) I'll note that there is a DYK outstanding that I forgot about too, if anyone is interested in pushing it through.—Bagumba (talk) 03:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • It appears to me that the correct name would be "Racial and ethnic minorities in the National Basketball Association". The term "race and ethnicity" doesn't apply very well, because "race" includes "white" and "ethnicity" can include categories like "Italian". I don't like the term "persons of color" -- to me, it is not a new term, but rather the kind of locution that prominent racists used back in my childhood when they were trying to be polite and couldn't use their usual language. "Minority" seems OK; in the United States, African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Asian Americans, etc., are all still considered "minorities"; as white/non-Hispanics are still in the majority. --Orlady (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
"Minority" is deemed a negative term, as People of color frames it as a "subordinate connotation". "People of color" is generally considered acceptable, although similar to the older term "colored people", which is not viewed positively.—Bagumba (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
Support moving to either Race and ethnicity in the NBA or Racial and ethnic minorities in the NBA. After all, white is a color as well. Gobōnobo + c 07:46, 14 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I'm back. I'm ok with current title as an extension of common usage of People of color. Otherwise, I can support "Race and ethnicity in the NBA".—Bagumba (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I like Race and ethnicity in the NBA best.—Chris!c/t 02:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
I've moved this page to Race and ethnicity in the NBA and revised the lead. Gobōnobo + c 07:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Statistics

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Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Does anyone have a statistical source to back up or dispute Larry Bird's statement? Cmguy777 (talk) 21:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Article currently says that in 2011, 78% of league was black. Is there something else specifically you are looking for?—Bagumba (talk) 01:22, 24 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Black is not the same as African-American

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Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The whole article does not consider the issue of foreign players. The article uses the words "black" and "African-American" synonymously, but there are several players in the league who are black and not African-American but Afro-European or African. Or does the whole article refer to US-Players? If not, is a player like Nenê (Afro-Brasilian) listed as black or as latin?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.218.213.238 (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2016‎ (UTC)Reply

The TIDES report seems to use Black and African-American interchangeably, so I agree that "Black" is probably less confusing to use. Per the report, someone like Nene would seem to have been categorized based on self identity: "Those who identified themselves as African-Americans or Black comprised ..." (2015 TIDES report, p. 2).—Bagumba (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

mixed

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Do all mixed players count as blacks? I have seen a lot of players that look multiracial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.91.126.99 (talk) 13:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Ethnicity?

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Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

As far as I can tell, the article as it stands does not talk about ethnicity at all, only race. Given the known broad genetic diversity among Black people (greater than that between races, as commonly pointed out in refutations of "race realists"), this seems like a massive oversight. As it stands, the title is misleading and content lacking and not particularly interesting. 76.64.32.178 (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

FYI, the title background is above at #NBL/ABA pioneers—Bagumba (talk) 01:09, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Reasons?...

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Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Notably absent from the article is any discussion of WHY these striking disparities exist...

WHY are Blacks so massively over-represented in the NBA? Why are Whites so under-represented, and Asians even more so?

Is this primarily due to cultural differences? Primarily due to innate biological differences? (i.e. greater prevalence of whatever physical traits make for good basketball players in some racial groups than in others) Some combination?...

The article talks about the racial history of the NBA, but omits any discussion of the reasons for the current massive disparities, which is odd, considering that most discourse of race in the NBA talks a lot about WHY such disparities exist. -2003:CA:8713:1000:A59D:8DC2:C5DC:9794 (talk) 14:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Can we add statistics back to the start?

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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Can someone find and add statistics back to the start of the NBA? Thank you! Misty MH (talk) 04:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Add topic
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