Talk:Poets' Corner

Auden

What about W.H.Auden?--85.220.1.189 (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is a commemorative stone in Poet's Corner honouring the poets of WWI. Many of these names are absent from this page. I didn't take a picture of the stone but the internet ([[1], [2]) tells me the stone in question bears the names of Wilfred Owen, Robert Graves, Robert Nichols and Siegfried Sassoon (among others). The stone in question bears the quote "My subject is War and the pity of War. The poetry is in the pity." I'm adding the above names to the list. Nicklob (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I found a better link that lists all 16 WWI poets commemorated in Poet's Corner. [3] Nicklob (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• To answer the original question, I've now added W. H. Auden to the list, along with around 8 others (so far) that were missing. Carcharoth (talk) 01:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Title

It's at "Poets’ Corner", rather than "Poets' Corner". Just a small thing, but let's get it right. I'd move it myself, but the correct spelling is already a redirect. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Notes (reminder)

To remind myself:

• Consider separating out burials from interment of ashes
• Need to state which burials have monuments
• State which were Poet Laureate and similar roles (Oxford Professors of Poetry and Nobel Laureates)
• A few (not many) were not born in Britain - point out these exceptions.
• Cover the memorial and dedication ceremonies (such as here)
• Find missing dates, such as the one here for the Bronte sisters (together on one tablet), either in 1939 or in 1948 (after the war). See also here (search for 'Abbey'). Seems it was 1939, see here. Design was by Sir Charles Peers. "Tablet by Sir Charles Peers, 1939; unveiled, 1947", from Treasures of Westminster Abbey (Tony Trowles, 2008)

More thoughts to be added as needed. Carcharoth (talk) 01:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice work so far. My suggestions:

• Sortability of names is best done using {{sortname}}
• I think that giving details of each funeral is too ambitious; I would have thought that it will be hard to get details for all of them. Instead, you could have rename "notes on artistic career" as "notes", and give some brief details of funerals there where you have anything worth mentioning.

• Maybe give slightly more detail of career than just "poet"?

• I'd be inclined to have a joint list for burials and memorials, with a new column that enables the reader to sort burials from memorials. I can see the sense in keeping the war poets and the ballet people in different lists, though.
• "Circa" dates can be sorted with a preliminary {{hs}} to generate the date you want to sort by

No doubt more thoughts later! Bencherlite^Talk 14:23, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips on list sorting. As far as funerals go, I think it will actually be possible, as there is a lot out there about some of the funerals and (hopefully) something about most of them (though this will have to be restricted to the poets and writers buried here, not the other burials). I will definitely aim to do more with the details of what they were most famous for in the writing and poetic senses, but am aiming to complete and organise the list first. As for combining the burials and memorials, that may actually make sense as the booklet you pointed me towards lists all those commemorated and then states: (a) where buried (with "Poets Corner" for those buried there, and other locations in the Abbey for those buried elsewhere in the Abbey, and locations elsewhere for those buried elsewhere); and (b) date of memorial (with "gravestone only" or "no marker" for those without memorials). This makes sense because rather a lot of those with gravestones on the floor also have memorials nearby. Anyway, it should become clearer as the list gets filled out (it turns out the list was woefully incomplete, far more incomplete than I had realised). Carcharoth (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources for the article

Putting some notes here on the sources I'm using for the article.

• (1) Poets' Corner in Westminster Abbey (James Wilkinson, 2007, JW Publications [London, UK], ISBN 978-0-9552470-4-0, 48pp)
• (2) Poets' Corner in Westminster Abbey (Joel W. Athey, 1996, Nugent Printing [Pasadena, California, USA], ISBN 0-9650331-0-4, 63pp)
• (3) Treasures of Westminster Abbey (Tony Trowles, 2008, Scala Publishers [London, UK], ISBN 978-1-85759-454-6, 176pp)
• (4) Westminster Abbey, its architecture, history and monuments - Volume I (Helen Marshall Pratt, 1914, Duffield & Company [New York, USA], 471pp)

There are lots more books and sources out there that touch on aspects of Poets' Corner, or go into great details about Poets' Corner, but the above are what I am working with for now. Will describe below in more detail what these books contain. For anyone reading this (I will notify the editors recently active here), please do add more sources and help out, as there is a lot of potential here for both a set of lists and an article. Carcharoth (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• The Wilkinson booklet (2007) is mostly a chronological history of Poets' Corner, with nine chapters from the beginnings to the time the booklet was published. Lots of photos and interesting information and detailed descriptions. It also includes two very useful lists in the final pages: (a) 'Poets and writers in Poets' Corner' (107 names with burial location and memorial date and additional details where needed); and (b) 'Poets and writers elsewhere in the Abbey' (19 names, with burial and memorial details as before). There is also a list of 'Poets Laureate from 1617' (20 names and 5 names of those who declined). Centrefold spread has a labelled artist's depiction of Poets' Corner. No author details, but the acknowledgments include details of some of the sources used.
• The Athey book (1996) is mainly a selection of 22 of the most famous poets with excerpts from their writings, but has some history and opinions as well that can usefully be quoted here and that may not be in the other sources. The author description states he is a PhD who teaches Victorian literature at California State University. The photo sources are acknowledged, but no indication of the sources used for the text.
• The Trowles book (2008) is a monumental work that appears to comprehensively describe all the monuments and memorials and other 'treasures' in Westminster Abbey. The section relevant to this article (though the rest of the book can and should be used for many other articles as well) is the 'South Transept' section of chapter 5 'South Ambulatory and Transept'. This 'South Transept' section is pages 80-96. It includes photos and introductory text, but the main part of the text is the 'Monuments and Floorstones' section, which has 101 entries (some to more than one person), plus details of memorial windows and wall paintings, and a section of text at the end which names 31 other people with graves or memorials. On page 167, there is a floor plan of Poets' Corner and the surrounding area (the plan is titled 'South Ambulatory and Transept'), on which 192 separate memorials or monuments are marked (there are over 600 in the Abbey altogether), though not all those 192 are in Poets' Corner (the exact boundaries are not clear). The text is copyright Westminster Abbey Enterprises Ltd, and the author (Trowles) has been librarian at Westminster Abbey since 1998, so it is effectively an official guidebook with excellent author credentials (Trowles is also the compiler of the 2005 publication A Bibliography of Westminster Abbey, "a reference guide to more than 3000 publications about the institution and its history").
• The Pratt book (1914) is a more verbose work, going into some detail about the history of Poets' Corner up until around 1914. Written in the style of its times, it is fairly comprehensive, and gives details of many of the funerals as well. It is also has several pictures of Poets' Corner and its monuments in or before 1914. Poets' Corner is covered in chapter IX ('The South Transept, or Poets' Corner', pp 164-192) and chapter X ('The South Transept (continued)', pp 193-221). Around 57 pages (including photos) about Poets' Corner and its monuments, including some material not found elsewhere. Not sure of the credentials of the author, but the preface and the acknowledgments included that give some indication of the sources used (primarily, the book was written at the British Museum, consulting documents there).

Hopefully that gives an idea of the sources being used here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

To add to the above: The roll-call of Westminster Abbey, A. Murray Smith (1903), Historical memorials of Westminster Abbey, Arthur Penrhyn Stanley (1869) - with sources listed here, while here there is a floor plan of Poets' Corner as it appeared in 1869! Fascinating, especially the absence of some names and the presence of completely new ones not mentioned in any other sources!). Carcharoth (talk) 01:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Still to add

Using the Wilkinson booklet and cross-referencing with an offline list that combined the list from the Wikipedia article at the time and the people mentioned by Pratt, there are a further 28 "poets and writers" to add and a further 13 non-poets to add. After that, the entire list needs to be checked against the names listed in the Trowles book to double-check everything and to list any additional non-poets not yet included (M = memorial; G = grave).

Collapse for readability

Poets and writers Christopher Anstey - M Elizabeth Browning - M Caedmon - M Henry Francis Cary - G Richard Cumberland - G Thomas May - M (original grave removed) William Gifford - G F. W. Maitland - M Gilbert Murray - G Robert Stapylton - G (see here) Thomas Triplet - G Matthew Arnold - M John Keble - M Thomas Shadwell - M Francis Beaumont - G John Beaumont - G Robert Southey - M George Grote - G Connop Thirlwall - G Isaac Casaubon - G Isaac Barrow - G Richard Hakluyt - G James Thomson - M James Macpherson - G William Mason - M Michael Drayton - G John Phillips - M (see [4]) William Vincent - M Non-poets Hannah Pritchard - M (but only Pratt mentions her - Trowles has no mention of Pritchard or Vaughan, her maiden name, in the index or the Poets' Corner section, so unless her memorial is elsewhere in the Abbey, or has been removed totally, or she was omitted by Trowles - this is a puzzle) Eva Marie Veigel - G John Ernest Grabe - M James Wyatt - M John Campbell, 2nd Duke of Argyll - M Owen Tudor (1429-1501) - G Nicholas Litlington - G William Benson - G (listed as Boston by Trowles). From DNB: "He was buried in the abbey in the chapel of St. Blaize, but the inscription on his tomb has long been obliterated." (Benson, or BOSTON, William (d 1549), abbot and first dean of Westminster, by J. M. Rigg. Published 1885)Dsp13 (talk) 17:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Mary Steele - G (described by Pratt but not by Trowles) Granville Sharp - M Barton Booth - M Richard Busby - G Robert South - G

The above should be integrated into the main lists. Carcharoth (talk) 04:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Most, if not all, of these do not (yet) appear in Westminster Abbey Burials and Memorials, but perhoaps they needn't. I have addded a tag at South Transcept there pointing to this as main article. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Ultimately, I think the burials and memorials in this list will need merging, and the difference made clear in a column for that purpose (along with a column for where those not buried here are buried). But for now I'm going to annotate the above to indicate which are burials (in Poets' Corner) and which are memorials. Carcharoth (talk) 22:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

We might also want to check for the Category: Burials at Westminster Abbey for each person added as we go along, even if they don't yet appear in Westminster Abbey Burials and Memorials? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

For those buried, yes, but not those with monuments that are buried elsewhere. Checking the article text should be done at the same time as checking the category is there. A separate category for those buried elsewhere, but with a memorial at Westminster Abbey, might be needed. Carcharoth (talk) 09:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

New additions

Sandboxing new additions here before moving over.

Memorials moved over. Carcharoth (talk) 12:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Burials moved over. Carcharoth (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Done. Carcharoth (talk) 09:49, 20 March 2010 (UTC) and 16:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Pritchard and Steele monuments

There is a minor mystery surrounding the memorials to Hannah Pritchard and Mary Steele. Both are mentioned by Pratt (1914): [5], [6]. Steele is probably one of the unmarked gravestones, but Pritchard had a monument, as is clearly stated here as well. But the current guides to Poets' Corner don't mention it, and I haven't found it the last few times I was there. The Pritchard memorial is also mentioned in this book: "Mrs. Pritchard was honoured by a memorial near Shakespeare's statue, upon which the poet-laureate of the day wrote a florid inscription. She began her professional career after Booth's death, but lived long enough to tread the same boards as Garrick, whose grave is just below; she predeceased the younger actor by ten years." But from that description, it should be easy to find (orientating myself with the Shakespeare statue and the Garrick grave). More on the Pritchard memorial here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

according to Hannah Pritchard's ODNB entry, her memorial was later moved to the Abbey's triforium. Dsp13 (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Final cross-checks

Will now go through the Trowles book and note here which entries are not yet in this list, which are on this list due to being later than 2008, and which are only mentioned in other sources (and naming those sources). Carcharoth (talk) 16:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably obscure

i.e. no article is likely, just list somewhere in the text if they are a gravestone, but if they are a major monument, then list in the tables, but consider how this is best done.

• Robert Hauley (died 1378), knight killed here
• John Shakel (died 1396), knight captured here
• Edward Wetenhall (c.1660-1733), physician
• Edward Wetenhall (1636-1713), bishop [article might be possible]
• Sir Edward Atkyns (1587-1669) and family (two sons and one other) [we have article on Robert Atkyns (c.1621-1710) , but not the others]
• Elizabeth, Lady Lechmere and Sir Thomas Robinson (1700-1777), architect and arts patron [we have article on Lord Lechmere (1675-1727), but not his wife]
• Mary Hope (died 1767)
• John Roberts (c.1712-1772), politician
• Samuel Barton (died 1715)
• Samuel Bolton (died 1668), clergyman, son of Samuel Bolton (1606-1654).

I'm not sure the one is son of the other. See [7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsp13 (talk • contribs)

You are right. I misread our Samuel Bolton (1606-1654) article. That actually says (referring to DNB) that he was the son of Robert Bolton (1572-1631). Could you confirm that and see if there is anything in the current ODNB? Carcharoth (talk) 09:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This Samuel Bolton was vicar of St Peter le Poer [8] and was President of Sion College. The ODNB says the son of Robert Bolton died 1669, which can be an Old Style/New Style dating difference. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Peter Birch (c.1652-1710), clergyman.[9]
• Martha Birch (c.1653-1703), possibly related to Peter Birch
• William Loe (died 1645)

  clergyman. In DNB and ODNB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsp13 (talk • contribs)

• Thomas Chaffinch (1600-1666)
• George Riddell (died 1783) and stepmother Sarah (died 1817)
• Barbara Simpson (died 1795)
• Hannah and George, wife and son of the Dean, William Vincent

Possible articles

• Sir Richard Coxe (died 1623), royal taster and steward [article might be possible] Details from Westminster Abbey website
• William Heather (1563-1627), musician [article might be possible] Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry
• William Burnaby (1673-1706) [article might be possible] Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry

List in main tables

• Sir Robert Moray (1603-1673), Scottish statesman and scientist [birth year in article is different]
• Stephen Hales (1677-1761), priest and scientist
• Sir John Pringle (1707-1782), military doctor [dates different in article]
• Sir Robert Taylor (1714-1788), sculptor and architect
• Sir Archibald Campbell (1739-1791), colonial governor (plus his nephew)
• James Stuart Mackenzie (1719-1800), Scottish politician
• William Twisse (c.1577-1646), clergyman, grave removed at same time as May
• Stephen Marshall (c.1594-1655), clergyman, grave removed at same time as May
• William Strong (died 1654), clergyman, grave removed at same time as May
• Archibald Campbell Tait (1811-1882), Archbishop of Canterbury
• William Caxton (died 1492), printer (on external wall of Abbey)
• John Reith (1889-1971), 1st Director-General of BBC (on external wall of Abbey)
• William Outram (c.1626-1679), clergyman
• Anthony Horneck (1641-1697), clergyman
• Richard Lucas (c.1648-1715), clergyman
• John Heylyn (1685-1759), clergyman
• William Spottiswoode (1825-1883), mathematician and physicist

Other features

Probably best to just mention in the text.

• Wall paintings of St Thomas and St Christopher
• Biblical poets window depicts King David and St John the Evangelist
• Rose window is in memory of Hugh Lupus Grosvenor, 1st Duke of Westminster (1825-1899)

Later additions

Already listed (along with mention of Elizabeth Gaskell and now Ted Hughes).

• Royal Ballet, four names (added 2009, after the Trowles book was published)

Sources differ

• Hannah Pritchard (1711-1768), actress (not mentioned by Trowles, mentioned by Pratt and others)
• Mary Steele (1678-1718), letter writer and wife of Richard Steele, who had connections with Joseph Addison (not mentioned by Trowles, mentioned by Pratt)
• Richard Hakluyt (c.1552-1616), author (no marker, not mentioned in Trowles, but is listed in Wilkinson)
• Robert Stapylton (c.1607-1669), poet (no mention in Trowles, Wilkinson says he is buried in Poets' Corner and listed on the Cowley gravestone, but there is no Stapylton listed there - other sources say he is buried "near the vestry door of Westminster Abbey", so depending on where that is and how accurate that is, might need to be moved).

With links first, then will remove redlinks for obscure people with no articles, leaving redlinks for those who might one day have an article. Carcharoth (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Robert Stapylton's in the ODNB as Stapylton [Stapleton], Sir Robert (1607x9?–1669), translator and playwright by L. G. Kelly, and also in the first edition of the DNB as 'Stapleton or STAPYLTON, SIR Robert (d 1669)' by Thompson Cooper.Dsp13 (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Westminster Abbey website pages

Pages on the Westminster Abbey website related to people in Poets' Corner (and the entire South Transept), many of which have pictures of the memorials, plus poets and writers buried elsewhere in the Abbey:

• Robert Adam
• Joseph Addison
• Atkyns family
• Robert Ayton
• Aphra Behn
• William Blake
• Mary Eleanor Bowes
• Robert Browning
• Frances Burney
• Robert Burns
• Richard Busby
• William Camden
• Lewis Carroll
• William and Margaret Cavendish
• Geoffrey Chaucer
• Thomas Chiffinch
• Richard Coxe
• Charles Dickens
• David Garrick
• John Gay
• Adam Lindsay Gordon
• George Grote
• George Frederic Handel
• Thomas Hardy
• Henry Irving
• Samuel Johnson
• Ben Jonson
• John Keats
• Rudyard Kipling
• Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
• Edward Bulwer Lytton
• Thomas Babington Macauley
• Thomas May
• John Milton
• WWI poets
• Thomas Parr
• John Pringle
• Nicholas Rowe
• William Shakespeare
• Granville Sharp
• Percy Bysshe Shelley
• Richard Sheridan
• Henry Spelman
• Edmund Spenser
• William Spottiswood
• Alfred Tennyson
• Thomas Triplet

So for each entry it should be possible to list: (a) Reference to Trowles; (b) Reference to Wilkinson; (c) Reference to Pratt; (d) Reference to Westminster Abbey website. Other possible sources include: Westminster Abbey: a short history and description of the church and conventual buildings with notes on the monuments (Charles Hiatt, 1902) and Westminster Abbey (A. Murray Smith, 1906 edition - first published 1904). Of course, there are over 251 hits on the Internet Archive for books on Westminster Abbey, so some care is needed to only use reliable PD sources. Carcharoth (talk) 01:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Couple more

From here (if you ignore the bottom bit marked "south aisle of choir", which is confusing and contains names listed by Trowles in the 'Quire and Crossing') and look at the names listed in the South Transept proper, there are some new names:

• John Ireland (1761-1842), Dean of Westminster (grave in South Transept, as shown in the Stanley floor plan of 1869; mentioned in Trowles but under the monument which is in the Nave).
• John Henderson (died 1785, aged 38), actor (mentioned here by Stanley, but not by Trowles) - more on Henderson here, here, and here.

The point here is that some of the graves in the South Transept are not mentioned by Trowles in that chapter, but only referenced in the text about the memorial (which may be elsewhere in the Abbey). In passing, the author of that 1869 book, Dean Stanley (Arthur Penrhyn Stanley) was a major historian of the Abbey, writing many 19th century works on its history, and has a monument elsewhere in the Abbey, so that is worth mentioning. Carcharoth (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Glad you found Dean Ireland, a little something that I wrote! Have you seen that Ted Hughes is get a place in with the other poets? Bencherlite^Talk 21:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I did see that. I was Googling something else about Poets' Corner and I was surprised to see that news story pop up! I was wondering if someone would add it here or mention it before I got home. I'll go add it now. Carcharoth (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC) You know, if I'd known this was going to happen, I'd have made the article look prettier! :-)

DNB on John Henderson: "In the ‘Catalogue Raisonné of the Mathews Gallery of Pictures’ (1833), now in the Garrick Club, it is stated that he was ‘poisoned accidentally by his wife, who never knew the cause of his death.’ He was buried in Westminster Abbey, in the south cross, on 3 Dec. 1785. His pall-bearers were Steevens, Malone, Murphy, Hoole, Whitefoord, and the Hon. John Byng. Kemble, Macklin, Yates, and most of the best-known actors were present. His wife, Jane Figgins of Chippenham, whom he married on 13 Jan. 1779, was buried in Poets' Corner in the same edifice on 3 March 1819." Dsp13 (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Some relevant things

John Phillips (poet) under "Memorials" is definitely John Philips (see the DNB biography linked from the article); and there is an image available there. I have created the Robert Stapylton and Edward Wetenhall articles. Various other redlinks from above can also be filled in, though in one case at least the article would be an orphan. I'll note further creations as I get to them. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks (to both of you, Dsp13 and Charles)! Carcharoth (talk) 10:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

links to "[year] in poetry" and "[year] in literature" pages

Any objections to adding links to "[year] in poetry" or "[year] in literature" pages with an explanation at the top of each table? I'd be happy to do it myself. The links should be hidden (like this: 1798). In many literary awards pages (example) and bibliography sections or pages for authors (example) this is done with an explanation at the top of the list, usually "Each year links to its corresponding '[year] in poetry' or '[year] in literature' article." I'm not sure if there are any cases where it's uncertain whether or not a writer is best known for his or her poetry or prose, but if so, the default should be to link to the "[year] in literature" page. The advantage for this article is that readers can see what other authors were born or died around the same time. The "[year] in" pages should also mention memorials/interments in the Poets' Corner. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC) An alternate way of linking is to link to "[year] in the United Kingdom" or "[year] in Great Britain", since nearly all of those memorialized are British (exceptions: Henry Wadsworth Longfellow and Jenny Lind). -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow is buried in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There is a bust of Longfellow in Westminster Abbey (http://www.westminster-abbey.org/our-history/people/henry-wadsworth-longfellow). BlueMist (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Numbers of burials and people memorialised

I removed this recent addition: "To date, 53 people have been interred at Poets' Corner and 86 people memorialised.". The reason being that the list is not complete (see the talk sections above) and the number has varied. Some memorials have been moved over the centuries of the Abbey's history, some histories mention memorials of which no trace seems to remain now, and the precise definition of the area now known as Poets' Corner has varied. If someone wants to put numbers in, it should either be a total of the ones we list (i.e. "the lists below name y burials and x people"), or should refer to a source that has done a proper survey of the history and explains their methodology and definitions and can be dated (i.e. "as of DATE this SOURCE gives these numbers"). Carcharoth (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Fully agree that numbers cannot be relied upon in this context. This is certainly also true of the Abbey as a whole. A total of the persons listed might be a useful summary, but that's as far as we can go. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

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David Frost

Could someone add his memorial stone to the table?[10]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

 Done —Diiscool (talk) 20:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Wine auction

Not worthy of comment in the main article, but passing researchers might like to know of a wine auction, by Messrs. Christie, Manson & Woods, on 12 December 1894, of “The Property of D. Irvine, Esq., of Poets’ Corner, Westminster, whose house is coming down for the extension of Westminster Abbey”. (My pictures #19834/46-7.) JDAWiseman (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2014 (UTC)