Talk:Point, Lewis

Requested move 14 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

---

Point (Outer Hebrides) → Eye Peninsula – Per the Ordnance Survey this is the English name. This is also what the Gazetteer for Scotland uses while acknowledging that "Point" is an alternative name. Even if "Eye Peninsula" was not its most common name per WP:NATURAL this avoids the need to disambiguate it. However if artificial disambiguation is kept it should be Point, Outer Hebrides per WP:UKPLACE since its in the Outer Hebrides not an Outer Hebrides. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:49, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

I guess it would be good to introduce some consistency to the names of the articles for the regions of Lewis. By following links from the Isle_of_Lewis#Parishes_and_districts_of_Lewis and Isle_of_Lewis#Settlements sections of Isle_of_Lewis, it is evident that the regions have articles variously named 'X' alone, 'X, Lewis' and 'X, Outer Hebrides' (none, interestingly to me, 'X, Isle of Lewis'). (Apologies that I haven't made those links display properly.) Iaineditor (talk) 13:03, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes WP:UKPLACE specifically states that places disambiguated on islands, the island, as opposed to the council area is used and Lewis and Harris are treated as separate islands (sorry I forgot that!). I suggested at Talk:Isle of Lewis#Requested move 18 July 2018 that all placed DABBed by that should use "Isle of Lewis" instead of "Lewis" but there obviously wasn't consensus for that. Note that the article Isle of Arran but places DABBed by it still just use "Arran" for example Kilmory, Arran. If DAB was kept here it should be Point, Lewis but I don't think it is since we are moving to a title that doesn't require disambiguation. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:44, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Per my comments at Talk:Glims Holm#Requested_move_14_January_2019, the Gazetteer for Scotland for Scotland looks an underfunded and abnadined project rather than a reliable source ... and i don't trust the English-based Ordnance Survey for placenames outside England.

We need sources with specific expertise on the Outer Hebrides. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed: my understanding is that these are not quite the same thing. Eye Peninsula is the name of the physical landform, whereas Point is the network of settlements that occupy the landform, what in Lewis is often referred to as a "district". That said, the current title with parenthetic disambiguation is clearly wrong. Examination of the article history shows it was moved from Point, Outer Hebrides in 2015. This was one of a large number of articles that were moved in error at that time by a no doubt well-intentioned but nevertheless disruptive editor, and this one must have been missed in the cleanup operation afterwards. I would in fact support a move to Point, Lewis, which would seem most consistent with the WP:UKPLACE naming convention, and is what you would be most likely to hear spoken in the real-world streets of Stornoway. --Deskford (talk) 11:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

  That's what Melbost suggests (I have tagged it as needing a source) and the lead of the Point article. However from the other sources that I can see [1][2] (though not reliable sources) treat "Point" and "Eye Peninsula" to be the same thing. If we can find sources that refer to the area east of Stornoway as "Point" then we could split, however all the sources so far suggest that sources treat them as the same thing and it would be content forking to split them. If this was the case then I'd oppose my original proposal. Even still maybe this move isn't the best anyway. I have customised my preferences to show redirects as green links so I can see those that are redirects for example Ensay, Outer Hebrides and Shuna, Slate Islands. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

  The lead of the article states that it is about a peninsula and it is in both a landforms category and a peninsulas category. I don't see why you're saying it's about a network of settlements instead? Donama (talk) 22:57, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

  The 2nd half of the lead states "There are about 17 villages and hamlets in Point: (listed west to east) Melbost (Mealabost) (Including Stornoway Airport), Branahuie (Bràigh na h-Aoidhe)..." while the Gazetteer for Scotland says that Eye Peninsula (the peninsula ) is connected to the rest of Lewis by the Braigh. In other words our article suggests that the area west of the Braigh is still "Point" but the Gazetteer for Scotland suggests that "Eye Peninsula" is only the part east of Braigh. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

  I would need to check this, but I believe that in some administrative contexts the settlements east of the airport and west of the Braighe (the strip of land connecting Point to the rest of Lewis) are considered to be in Point though they are not physically in what islanders would think of as Point (ie 'the Eye Peninsula' - though as hinted above, 'Eye Peninsula' is a term rarely used in real life on the island; I grew up knowing it from maps and textbooks). Those settlements are Melbost, Branahuie and the Braighe Road. It is notable, for example, that in the Guide to Point publication, published in conjunction with the Point Community Council, and referenced in the article, those settlements are not included in the list or the coverage in the booklet; it is, of course, also to be noted that that publication does include 'Eye Peninsula' as the third name for the area, after An Rubha and Point. As Deskford suggests above, I'd think 'Point, Lewis' is the most logical name based on consistency with other article titles and - more importantly? less importantly? - based on actual usage by Outer Hebrideans. But I am very much a novice on matters Wikipedian, so I may be wrong. (trying this again after an 'edit conflict'; hope I don't mess it up...) Iaineditor (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 25 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: all pages moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Warm Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 21:34, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

---

• Point (Outer Hebrides) → Point, Lewis
• Broad Bay (Western Isles) → Broad Bay, Lewis
• Park, Outer Hebrides → Park, Lewis
• West Side, Outer Hebrides → West Side, Lewis

– Although there was no consensus to call this "Eye Peninsula" instead of "Point" it is clear that we don't generally use brackets for disambiguation by higher diversions (since its in Outer Hebrides and not an instance of Outer Hebrides), see WP:COMMADIS and WP:UKPLACE. However UKPLACE says that settlements on islands are generally disambiguated by the island, not council area even if they are unique in the council area and it also notes that Lewis and Harris are treated as separate islands for this purpose. This would also seem to apply to landforms on islands. This was moved from Point, Outer Hebrides in 2015, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland/Archive 12#More cleanup required[3] so we could also move it back but the NC suggest using "Lewis" as the qualifier. Ness, Lewis for example uses this qualifier and should probably be moved to Ness, Outer Hebrides if this is rejected. Note that Park, Outer Hebrides may be more awkward since it is on the boarder of Lewis and Harris. Although I have argued that "Isle of Lewis" should be the qualifier (of which was moved from "Lewis" to "Isle of Lewis" in August last year) there has been no consensus to do that, for example the article on the island is at Isle of Arran but those at Category:Villages in the Isle of Arran just use "Arran" as the qualifier. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support move to Point, Lewis per previous RM above, and support the others per WP:UKPLACE. (Park borders with Harris but is still within Lewis.) --Deskford (talk) 16:13, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support as above. -- Iaineditor (talk) 14:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - the premise of this nomination is incorrect. Only place names should be disambiguated using commas per WP:COMMADIS. Other landforms and geographical entities which are not places should be disambiguated with parentheses, as any other article would. As for the choice of disambiguator, I am happy enough to defer to the choice of Lewis rather than Outer Hebrides or Western Isles if that is the consensus. I therefore propose Point (Outer Hebrides) → Point (Lewis) etc. By the way, I would also be happy with Eye Peninsula for this one, per the RM above. I am not sure why it was shot down so quickly, it looks like a better fit per WP:NATURALDIS etc. and the fact that it describes the landform as per sources. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

  A landform is a "place" and UKPLACE makes less of a distinction between settlements and other geographical entities than USPLACE (for example). The only major difference that I was aware was that settlements in Scotland are generally disambiguated by council area or island even if unique in Scotland while other landforms seem to be disambiguated by Scotland (if that is sufficient). UKPLACE even makes reference to Jura, Scotland for example. Maybe these should be moved to "Placename, Scotland" instead since they appear to be unique in Scotland, although all 4 words are common words and thus could create confusion. With respect to the comment about using "Eye Peninsula" while that may be viable it indeed appears the "Point" and "Eye Peninsula" are slightly different but there isn't much in the way of sources to support that they are different. Also Talk:Handa, Scotland#Requested move 16 September 2018 might be worth revisiting since I assume you would agree that NATURALDIS makes sense there. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

  What he said! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:14, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.