Talk:Pokrovsk offensive

Only Pokrovsk?

I do not understand the naming of the article. The attack directions in the Donetsk region correlate and play together, wether it's the Battle of Toretsk or Battle of Chasiv Yar. It is not a single effort towards Pokrovsk, and in this attack direction, also has Kurakhove as a goal, according to Commander in Chief Syrskyi.

I saw no reports that would indicate this effort to be distinct enough to justify a page for it. It also does not refer to the other target in north-western Donetsk Oblast: Kurakhove - and this still would be only a (main) "attack direction" according to sources.

I suggest to create a "Battle of Pokrovsk" page when/if it begins in the outskirts, and leave information about this campaign in Eastern Ukraine campaign and/or create a "2024 Donbas offensive" page (or similar) to cover the theatre wide operations of Russia since they gained initiative in October. Which also includes efforts in Kharkiv Oblast towards the Oskil. Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Why do you keep referring to that one report from May mentioning Kurakhove, before the Pokrovsk offensive really started, and say that Russia is taking part in a "renewed offensive to capture all of Donetsk Oblast"? If you would read this article, you would see that it pertains to the Russian offensive northwest of Avdiivka to capture Pokrovsk, not any other part of Donetsk Oblast, beginning in late July 2024, which has nothing to do with Kurakhove; maybe Kurakhove was of equal Russian priority back in May, but now Pokrovsk is the main offensive throughout the entire frontline in Ukraine, as seen in this article and yesterday's ISW report. There's also no point in making some "2024 Donbas offensive" (a topic which arguably doesn't exist) article as we have articles on the specific battles and campaigns of 2024 rather than one big offensive article; just as we have battle of Chasiv Yar, battle of Toretsk and battle of Krasnohorivka, we have this article, which as the most active and prioritized area of the frontline, of course deserves an article. That report from Syrskyi in May was also not saying that Kurakhove and Pokrovsk were both being targeted from the same axis (northwest of Avdiivka), but that those were simply two unrelated goals Russia had throughout the entire Donetsk Oblast. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 11:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche Can be my source is outdated. Are there sources that say that the offensive pace considerably increased since other breakthroughs in this area, after the Avdiivka and Ocheretyne breakthroughs? I just want to understand the naming process. Arguably this was the main offensive effort since longer, and did not just start since they reached the vicinity of Pokrovsk. The capture of Pokrovsk would withhold a crucial supply hub for all of Donetsk, not just this area. Likely to aid Russian offensive efforts elsewhere in the theatre. When did the Pokrovsk offensive start? I don't think that can properly be established here. Russian offensive efforts in the Eastern Ukraine theatre had the territorial ambition to conquer Donbas. Currently, Donetsk is the focus, with advances along several axis in the battles you named. Zerbrxsler (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, arguably the offensive in the general vicinity of whatever is northwest of Avdiivka, including Pokrovsk, has been the main goal since February 2024, but that was not directly towards Pokrovsk. The capture of Prohres, as described in this article with the many sources backing it, was the "battle of Ocheretyne" of this phase of the offensive northwest of Avdiivka; following it, the "actual" offensive towards Pokrovsk began, as many sources will tell you, which is what this article is about. A clear concerted effort by Russian forces following 17 July to advance directly towards Pokrovsk with a significantly increased rate of advance has taken place. Just look at a map and compare the frontline between 17 July and today, and look at the many sources seen in this article for proof of a recent offensive towards Pokrovsk beginning on 18 July. Some in-depth sources on the recent offensive: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I sighted all linked articles and could find no mention or indication that singles out offensive efforts in this direction, or in the vicinity of Pokrovsk, as a separate or distinctive effort. The WP article, like I said, refers to the "new push" in the "Donetsk region". You correctly described the Ocheretyne and Avdiivka breakthrough as phases of a larger offensive, that went on with high pace for much longer than this. The maps do show high pace advances, but again, this also happened at Ocheretyne, Prohres and north of Avdiivka. I therefore think that this article should be renamed (to), or a Battle of Pokrovsk page be created once the Myrnohrad-Pokrovsk urban area is reached. Zerbrxsler (talk) 13:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what more evidence you could want if you don't think my provided sources and those in the article don't obviously show a distinct offensive directly towards Pokrovsk since 18 July; you yourself referenced Prohres - The maps do show high pace advances, but again, this also happened at Ocheretyne, Prohres and north of Avdiivka, and this article is about the fall of Prohres, the territory gained immediately following its capture, and the continuing larger-scale offensive that has taken place in the direction of Pokrovsk since then. By your logic of not seeing individual military actions in Donetsk Oblast as "singled out", we shouldn't have articles on the battle of Krasnohorivka, battle of Chasiv Yar, and especially the battle of Toretsk, as fighting is not ongoing in the city itself yet; however, we do, because we choose to have articles not on the Russian offensives themselves, (for one I think saying that all of these advances can be boiled down to "a renewed offensive effort to capture all of Donetsk Oblast" when that's where the vast majority of the fighting has been taking place for the past year and a half is absurd) but for the most active and hotly contested areas of the frontline in Donetsk Oblast; as the Pokrovsk/Avdiivka salient is the most active and prioritized area of the entire frontline in Ukraine, as stated in this article, there's no reason it shouldn't have a separate article. The reason we didn't have one on the Avdiivka offensive efforts prior to 18 July was because, as I said, those were not directly towards Pokrovsk, not at the same rate (increasingly so this month) of Russian advance, and were covered by the battle of Avdiivka and battle of Ocheretyne articles and their aftermath sections. For more evidence that this push is anything special, there's the fact that Russia massively increased their amount of troops in the Pokrovsk direction around the time of the fall of Prohres, (sourced to an ISW report somewhere but I can't be arsed to find it, there's also [7] this ref) and has captured the same amount of territory in the Avdiivka salient in the past ~1 month (~170 sqkm) since 17 July as they did between 17 April and 17 July, a period of 3 months. (source DeepStateMap) I also don't think we should be restricted to making an article on this offensive by an advance up to Pokrovsk itself, as the entire effort to reach it and the settlements between Ocheretyne and Pokrovsk are notable; the fact that Russia has reached the Novohrodivka-Hrodivka line, the former of which has a population similar to Krasnohorivka and four times that of Ocheretyne, makes the push even more worthy of an article. The intent would be that when Pokrovsk itself is reached, the battle for that city would simply be a section of this article, similar to how battle of Toretsk is currently laid out. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche Please cite me the text from your sources that supports the assessment that there is a distinct "Pokrovsk offensive". According to latest developments, there is an intensified effort towards the south, with Selydove, Ukrainsk and bigger mechanized assaults in the direction of Kurakhove.

"Reported Russian advances into Selydove and toward Ukrainsk and Hirnyk likely aim to eliminate a relatively large Ukrainian salient on the southern edge of the wider Russian salient in the Pokrovsk direction." - ISW

This again speaks for the fact that there is more efforts that are part of the offensive in this direction, and that it's not just limited to Pokrovsk, has more scopes. I again propose to re-name this article to Battle of Pokrovsk and add information about Prohres and Novohrodivka to Eastern Ukraine campaign like it happened to the Battle of Toretsk, once advances are in proximity of the Pokrovsk urban area, or a wider regional naming for the offensive once sources report it.

Your justification for this name was similar to earlier happenings in this direction which did not warrant a similar naming. You yet did not provide sources that really indicate that this offensive is distinctive. The pace was high before and was intensified by the withdrawal of Ukrainian troops to Kursk. Russia tested the frontline and then deployed reserves to breakthroughs, for example when there was rotation failure.

"Most active/prioritised area" does not mean distinctive offensive. There is no source I have seen that directly says this. It likely has bigger ramifications, as for example, outflanking the south of Donetsk. It is likely a false implication that this offensive is solely about Pokrovsk, and its goals are not immediately clear, other than occupying more of Donetsk Oblast. Zerbrxsler (talk) 14:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Objective?

Who has said the goal is to capture Pokrovsk? The Russian desire to secure the flanks of Donetsk has been a clear and stated objective since the start of the war. RadomirZinovyev 07:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

It is aim. 83.23.165.246 (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, a different page name might be appropriate. I saw no sources clearly referring to this as an distinctive offensive. Zerbrxsler (talk) 18:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

What "different page name" do you suggest? I've explained this to you before that Pokrovsk is obviously a distinct effort, and the main one across all of Ukraine at that; a title change to "2024 Donbas offensive" would not make sense as we already have an article which covers advances in the region, and such a title change would be an unnecessary change in scope. If you agree that Toretsk is a distinct offensive, then Pokrovsk, with much larger-scale advances and a greater amount of forces, surely is as well. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

If an objective is falsely named, it follows that if the attacking force does not achieve this claim, the opposing side will call it the attackers failure. Even if that was never their objective. If it cannot be verified that this is their objective as opposed to creating a buffer zone around Donetsk for example, then the title needs to also leave ambiguity to the attackers goal.

This applies for both sides in any given war. RadomirZinovyev 14:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@Zerbrxsler The scope of this article is everything the ISW (and news sources) refer to as the "Pokrovsk direction"/front/sector, which pertains to (mostly) everything between southwest of Niu-York (Toretsk) to (around) Hirnyk. The ISW report you cited from 5 September does not state that efforts to attack in the general direction of Kurakhove are part of the same offensive as Pokrovsk, rather that the seizure of these towns [Ukrainsk and Hirnyk] would allow Russian forces to assault Kurakhove; this is not saying that if those towns are captured that the Pokrovsk offensive would extend south to Kurakhove, or that an objective of the Pokrovsk offensive is the capture of Kurakhove, (which is rather a general objective of the Russian military) but rather that an assault on Kurakhove from an advance south from these towns would pertain to a "battle of Kurakhove" article, of which the southern advances in the Pokrovsk salient would be relevant background, but not the same offensive. Nowhere have I found corroboration for the claim that efforts to move towards Kurakhove form the east (which is (i.e. from Maksymilianivka, Kostiantynivka, etc.), ongoing well before any meaningful advances directly towards Pokrovsk, are covered in the scope of the Pokrovsk offensive; rather, some advances towards Kurakhove simply occurred at a similar time, as was the case with Vuhledar. Vuhledar and Kurakhove both mutually reinforce the efforts near Pokrovsk, but are distinct efforts. The own axe article used in the disputed edit rightly differentiates between the Pokrovsk direction and the Kurakhove/west of Donetsk direction.

I just want to clarify, as done previously, that the immediate goal of the Pokrovsk direction is not to capture "all of Donetsk Oblast"; that is a goal that Russia of course is pursuing and has been for years, but Donetsk as a whole is only a goal of the general offensive since December 2023, not of one of the individual offensives or battles that have taken place since then within Donetsk Oblast. It happens to be that the primary goal of both the general eastern offensive and the Pokrovsk offensive are to capture Pokrovsk, but this article, nor any other, covers the general 2024 offensive, and thus the Pokrovsk offensinve (as you have frequently done) should not be boiled down to a campaign to capture all of Donetsk Oblast. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:41, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche First of all thank you for all your contributions to this article. Regarding the direction of the Russian assaults last month, it can be noted that the direct advances towards Pokrovsk have slowed down while they remained steady to the southwest towards Kurakhove (around Ukrainsk & west of Krasnohorivka). I was wondering if you believe these advances should be included in this article, especially in the context of the renewed Russian efforts around Vuhledar, which could link up northwards approaching Kurakhove from the south. The Velyka Novosilka – Kurakhove line should be considered as a different objective from Pokrovsk.[8] [9] I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 16:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

We need to divide this page into several additional pages.

In my opinion, this page is not sufficient to cover all the battles in the Pokrovsk Raion, such as the battles in Hrodivka, Novohrodivka, and Selydove. I believe these battle deserve their own pages, not only because these towns are crucial for Russia to launch attacks on Pokrovsk but also because they serve as administrative centers for their respective hromadas. As stated on the Pokrovsk Raion Wikipedia page, Pokrovsk Raion consists of 14 hromadas, with three of them (Avdiivka, Marinka, and Ocheretyne) already having their own pages. Bukansatya (talk) 09:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources typically talk of the advances near Pokrovsk as a whole rather than singling out specific cities or villages, unlike reporting that was speciifc to Avdiivka, Marinka or Ocheretyne for those engagements; there's also not a good reason to have five stubs on battles when these could just be compacted into an article on the advances east of Pokrovsk, which is what is covered in reliable sources; most of these small battle articles wouldn't have significant coverage to prove notability, and due to the interconnectedness of the conflicts within the salient would best serve within one article. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 17:26, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Horrible name

It does not make sense. It's not an offensive, it's a battle. 2A01:799:1B9B:C300:61E9:8A4B:FAA:59F5 (talk) 02:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

A battle for what exactly? Pokrovsk itself has not yet been reached; sources tend to use "offensive" rather than "battle" when referring to this front, similar to the 2024 Kharkiv offensive. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

In fact, it is an offensive, but is it really a "Pokrovsk"? It may be Pokrovsk, but it may also be Kurahove or another city. This raises the question of what the actual goal is, it is not known. 2A01:113F:203:3D00:BD63:9301:726B:7CAE (talk) 11:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer if the Pokrovsk mentioned on this page refers to Pokrovsk as a whole or as a raion, rather than as a city. This preference is also indicated in the location section of the infobox, which lists 'Pokrovsk raion' and not 'Pokrovsk city satellite' or anything similar. Bukansatya (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That is not a scope supported by sources. The scope is around what the ISW right now considers the "Pokrovsk direction" [10]; notice how the "Kurakhove direction" (also in the raion) is not stated to be the same as or subordinate to the Pokrovsk sector. The fighting in the Hirnyk-Kurakhivka pocket area and east of Kurakhove (Ostrivske, Maksymilianivka) is part of the Kurakhove direction and should be covered at the new battle of Kurakhove article, while areas closer to Pokrovsk, such as Ukrainsk, Selydove are part of the Pokrovsk direction and are covered here. Pokrovsk Raion as a whole is a pretty arbitrary designation for an article's scope; similarly, despite "Kharkiv" in the title, the 2024 Kharkiv offensive covers only events in northern Kharkiv Oblast, and not the east, which is a separate effort. The location parameter in the infobox conveyed here that what is part of the Pokrovsk offensive/direction is entirely in Pokrovsk Raion, but not all hostilities within the raion are part of the offensive. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)