Talk:Polonia Warsaw

Copy-edited and Cleaned up

I did a lot of copy-editing, link-adding, and cleanup to this article. It seems to be in far better shape than when it was originally written, so I removed the copy-edit and cleanup tags. Braaropolis (talk) 09:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Polonia Warsaw. While there was a weak consensus here, this matchs the move of the related Legia Warsaw. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Polonia Warszawa → KS Polonia Warsaw – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC) English name of the city per WP:UE and KS prefix as per Talk:Manchester_United_F.C./Archive_12#Requested_move. It's time to get these football club articles using consistent names. Cloudz679 (talk) 21:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - Why not KSP Polonia Warsaw? Although most of their website refers to their name as Polonia Warszawa. I would NOT use the Manchester example across the board, for example Jagiellonia Białystok should NOT be changed to KS Jagiellonia Białystok. Ajh1492 (talk) 17:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

  Let's see... Manchester United F.C., Real Madrid C.F., FC Spartak Moscow, Cercle Brugge K.S.V., Trelleborgs FF, TSG 1899 Hoffenheim... As for the Warszawa/Warsaw thing, surely you accept Warsaw is the English name? Cloudz679 (talk) 19:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

  By the way, not "KSP Polonia Warsaw" because, as far as I can tell from the full name on the main page, "Klub Sportowy Polonia Warszawa" is the full name, P refering to Polonia. Cloudz679 (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

  By the way, KSP Polonia Warszawa = Klub Sportowy Piłkarski Polonia Warszawa where KSP translates roughly as Athletic Football Club. Severo^TC 20:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  It is irrelevant that Warsaw is the English-language name for Warszawa here. What matters is the collocation, namely whether "Polonia Warszawa" or "Polonia Warsaw" is used in English language. It could be either - I really don't know - but I would expect some idea presented in the initial RM. Severo^TC 09:03, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  English Language is not irrelevant on English Wikipedia, however here are some links from FIFA [1] and BBC [2] mentioning the club. Cloudz679 (talk) 14:12, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  I think I make it perfectly clear that English language is what matters, but it matters on "Polonia Warsaw"/"Polonia Warszawa" not on "Warsaw"/"Warszawa". Unfortunately the BBC don't seem to have made up their minds on the issue ([3] and [4]) and UEFA contradict FIFA ([5]). Severo^TC 20:44, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  Ok, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you Severo, because I don't know any English people who would use "Warszawa" to search for information on a Polish football team, on Wikipedia or elsewhere. For me, Wikipedia:Article Titles settles it with Naturalness – titles are expected to use names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles). Cloudz679 (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

  I will try to take an example to make the point I have been trying to make. There is a well-known football club called in it's native German form, "Bayern München". "Bayern" is the German word for Bavaria; "München" is the German word for Munich. To follow your logic, we would have the article for this club at "Bavaria Munich". But that would obviously be nonsense. We all know this club as "Bayern Munich". It is the common English-language name for the club.

  WP:COMMONNAME is vital. It makes part of the policy and we can't ignore it. The common name and the naturalness tie together. It would not be natural to have the article for Bayern Munich at "Bavaria Munich" because it does not reflect common usage. As I said, I do not know what the common name for Polonia is. However, you have brought this requested move and so you have an obligation to provide the evidence that it is the common name for the club. As WP:COMMONNAME suggests, I would advise a Google search, particularly a Google News search as it will be full of the type of sources that matter to Wikipedia. Severo^TC 13:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

  Again, at google books, 188 for Polonia Warsaw [6] versus 180 for Polonia Warszawa [7]. That's evidence per WP:COMMONNAME: When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources. Cloudz679 (talk) 14:43, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

  I will do a full analysis with searches on the four possible variants (Polonia Warszawa, Polonia Warsaw, KSP Polonia Warszawa and KSP Polonia Warsaw) with searches in Google search, books and news in the next day or so. A result of 188-180 isn't conclusive and the search needs more definition (as per Wikipedia:Search engine test). Severo^TC 13:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

it might be worth taking a look here (List of top-division football clubs in UEFA countries), for an idea of how (in)consistent EN:WP club names are across Europe... Ajh1492 (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I would be happy with KSP Polonia Warsaw if there is not agreement with KS Polonia Warsaw. Cloudz679 (talk) 21:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Cloudz679 (talk) 20:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose the abbreviation, support renaming to Polonia Warsaw. - Darwinek (talk) 11:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so the results for Google searches on the four variants of the name are below. I believe that the KSP prefix is not necessary - in the link initially given for its inclusion (Talk:Manchester United F.C./Archive 12#Requested move), editors are concerned that a number of clubs within that league require some kind of disambiguation as the name of the club is the same as the name of the city, the F.C./A.F.C. suffix should be used throughout. This argument doesn't apply in the Polish league as the vast majority of clubs have unique names. With this in mind, I believe that we should only apply a prefix or suffix if the burden of WP:COMMONNAME is met and, as such, I conducted the searched with and without it.

There were, however, some problems with this search. In addition to the usual exclusions, I excluded the word "hotel" to remove instances of the "Polonia Palace Hotel" in Warsaw. However, I was not able to overcome false positives of references to the Polish diaspora, who are known as Polonia. This was particularly noticeable within the book search, so I have excluded this search.

Name	Google search	Unique of 1000(*)	Google News
Polonia Warszawa	8.25 million	644	8
Polonia Warsaw	430k	720	8
KSP Polonia Warszawa	664	167	1
KSP Polonia Warsaw	128k	250	0

• (*) Google only provides 1,000 results - this column provides the actual number of links Google comes up with, the remainder of the 1000 being "similar" links hence this providing a "uniqueness".

It is a shame that I couldn't find a useful search strong for books - if someone can find one I will be happy to reconsider my opinion, but as it stands, it seems as though in English language, Polonia Warszawa is the common name so I oppose the move. Severo^TC 11:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.