Talk:Polytechnic University of Milan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Raistolo's version and Academic Boosterism

Raistolo has been reverting my edits on this page on generic claims of "information out of date". References I added for student dissatisfaction and common difficulties such as the baron system were removed, and academic boosterism that I had removed was reintroduced, with expressions such as:

• "Many scientists working at the Politecnico di Milano received awards and recognition by the scientific community": sure, but which?
• "The Politecnico di Milano Technical University is strongly oriented towards scientific and technological research": redundant, it is a Polytechnic: what else should it focus on?
• "The constant involvement of the academic staff in research activities allow them to transfer the results of both technological evolution and scientific progress to their students, improving the educational offer of the Institution": this is not how university in Italy, and often elsewhere, work. Laboratory work is usually reduced compared to other universities.

Plainly false facts were also added, such as the availability of "More than 1,000 accomodations" for students of the Politecnico (in reality they are 279, plus 140 for Erasmus students and 224 at the Student's home (which is however not just Politecnico's, not sure whether 224 is the number allocated for Politecnico or is the total that has to be shared with Statale), as stated in a reference from Politecnico's website itself that I already had included and that was deleted.

Raistolo, if you want to add sections about awards received by Politecnico researchers you are welcome to do it if you can provide sources. Probably they do have statistics somewhere (say, how many international awards, peer-reviewed papers, talks at conferences and such), but you cannot add unsourced claims. Or better, you can but I'll just revert them. --Orzetto 10:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Evidently, we graduated you without teaching you how to add up numbers. There are 643 beds in Politecnico's residences, + 500 in other conventioned residences, for a total of 1100. But you don't really read, so what's the use ? As for the rest, your ideas on how italian universities work, or on how we teach, are P - O - V and as such we don't care about them. And by the way, you don't even read my phrases correctly: I've not said anything about laboratory work. But you don't read... just revert. --Raistlin 22:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

We? Aha, so my suspect was correct, even if I did not dare word it... So, I take you admit being an employee of Politecnico. I did not find the figure of 500 places in "conventioned residences", if you have a source I have no problem with it (it's difficult to add numbers from nowhere, and they actually taught me not to do that...). It's not really like there is this incredible difference between 650 and 1,100 with 42,000 students around, anyway. Correct, I mentioned laboratory work first: you wrote "The constant involvement of the academic staff in research activities allow them to transfer the results of both technological evolution and scientific progress to their students, improving the educational offer of the Institution", and to counter I mentioned that study at Politecnico is mostly theoretical, and that some people actually believe it is good for adaptability (and I am not discussing that here, that may well be). I think the history of this article shows I have added references, whereas you have been mostly doing reverting. --Orzetto 13:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Calm down Orzetto, this is an encyclopedia, you simply can't write down your impressions or (old) memories about the Politecnico. You can hate Milano and think what you want about this university, but leave out your problems from wikipedia. Please re-write the article with a more correct point of view. --ZaX

User ZaX has as of now only one contribution, the lines above. Do we have a case of someone opening a Wikipedia account and using it only to write on this page, or do I have to suspect morphing or astroturfing? And, as far as the article is concerned, there are no "impressions" or "memories", there are sources. You have others, you integrate. --Orzetto 13:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

No, we just have a case of person (namely, you) not understanding that his biased article is basically hurting any Politecnico student I show it to :) That's good, we're gaining new people to edit Wikipedia. As for admitting to be a student of the Politecnico, I did so in the immediate beginning of the quarrel. --Raistlin 13:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Copyright breach by Raistolo

I was puzzled by Raistolo's comment to this edit: "The infos in here come from the POLITECNICO HOME PAGE". Huh? Have you read that line just above the text box that says "Content must not violate any copyright"?

Raistolo has apparently pasted in text from this page. I can see no notice placing the text in the public domain or any GFDL-compatible licence. Well, well, well, I guess we found the source of POV here. The fact that this is how Politecnico's home page describes itself is not really lending much to its credibility or neutrality. I cut out the passages that were taken from that page before we get a lawsuit on our hands. --Orzetto 10:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, look, I have no more time to waste on you and on this thing. You've just cut out whatever you didn't like. Rephrasing text from sources is NOT copyvio. But go ahead and do whatever you want. This page will remain blatantly false, it's just a loss for Wikipedia on the whole, not for me --Raistlin 22:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Rephrasing is indeed not forbidden, but you did not rephrase. Comparing your first version with the link I provided indicates clearly that you copied&pasted various sentences. Face it, that is not allowed.

NOTE: you also copied from this link. Do you realize what sort of problems this may mean for Wikipedia? This project has not the resources to litigate for the copyrighted content that could be placed in the almost-one-million pages it has. Do not do it. --Orzetto 13:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Face it: you just removed everything you would have removed anyway - in fact, you have not incorporated a single change in your biased POV since the beginning of this discussion. How is this called in your opinion ? I could give it a name in italian, but you would find it offensive. --Raistlin 09:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed what you inserted because what you inserted in your initial edit is a copyright violation of this and this. Simple as that. The web page of an institution is, furthermore, hardly NPOV about the institution itself, and contains a clear positive bias. --Orzetto 13:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You removed way more than that, history is plainly evident. --Raistlin 13:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Come on, Orzetto, this is not a challenge where the coolest person wins, we have to write a correct article on a university, right? For example do you read something about politics in the Harvard university article?

However, i'm a student of Politecnico di Milano and I can see a lot of great things in this university, despite the prices of the houses all around and despite some not-so-great professor.

Raistlin you are in denial. You are the "obsessive-compulsive" reverter. You just reverted this: exactly, why did you revert the   to avoid the € from falling away? Exactly why did you revert "Milan, Turin" into "Milano, Torino"? You said there were 500 conventioned beds, and did not provide references. When I found that, I added it (did you read that or did you revert out of impulse?), and I added the reference for your argument, and you reverted it so you actually weakened your own claim!. You also insist in inserting unsourced statements: if you have sources for the "large-scale projects" or the "awards and recognition by the scientific community", put them in. Otherwise, that is boostering. I thought this ought to be clear. And please, stop removing information useful to those who want to know something about the Politecnico.

Since ZaX (whether that's a morpher of Raistlin remains to be seen, I do not yet exclude that) points to Harvard, I would like to point out that Harvard University has a large section of criticism, which you seem unable to accept. You have positive sides? Fine, put them in and integrate. But there is no way I am giving in to censorship and propaganda. --Orzetto 00:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

You don't accept what we think and you continue to re-import negative sides on this article... For example: "Rents are generally on illegal terms, paid in cash, with no guarantees for the students and no taxes being paid". I live in Milano during the week and I know that the rents are without any guarantees and "generally on illegal terms"... but who cares in this article? We are talking about UNIVERSITY, not about rents in Milano!!!

p.s. i'm not --Raistlin, he will be ph.D very soon, sadly I'm only at 4°year ;-) --ZaX

Isn't (falsely) accusing others and personally attacking against the rules that you were so kind to post on my talk page ? At very least, excuse yourself with ZaX. As for the rest, I notice that all that criticism on Harvard is heavily substantiated by research. Wikipedia is not a political forum: your political opinions (which, you mind, we could even share !) are irrelevant on the Politecnico entry --Raistlin 13:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

ZaX's account has been used only on this page and to write "TODO" on his user page. Considering you misbehaved in various ways (insisting on academic boosterism, various flaming comments, adding unsourced information) I retain my suspects, knowing they cannot be verified. As for the rental situation, I find it quite relevant to whoever might be interested to go to Politecnico as e.g. an exchange student to know that the situation can be difficult. --Orzetto 10:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Homework, perceived workload

Mij added a section about student workload and homework. I basically agree that workload is heavy, but I wondered whether there are more specific guidelines for the university, or whether this is left to the professor's judgement. For instance, is homework compulsory (e.g. "complete and hand in 80% of exercises, or you cannot take the exam")? Must every course have some sort of homework? Is the situation still such that most professors do not produce precise syllabi for their exams (in my course of studies, the only one who did that with sufficient precision/consistency was Anna Zaretti—and Alfio Quarteroni who had a Numerical Methods course attached to her Calculus III), and then ask "surprise" questions at the exam on grounds like "but I said it in class"? --Orzetto 11:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You cannot really state a lot about the workload or the exams (both changed completely since when you left Italy, along with the new structure of university studies which was introduced in 2000-2001; for instance, Calculus and Numerical Methods courses have been completely and awfully rearranged). Homeworks are sometimes compulsory, there is no university-wide standard, but they are computed against the total credit weight of the course (e.g. if you teach a course were there's a heavy project work the total number of hours of classroom teaching is - should be - proportionally reduced). Syllabi have always been quite precise in my experience, but as of now they are created in the beginnning of the year and pre-approved by a committee, then offered to the students in a website. See [1] --Raistlin 10:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Student politics

The whole article is poor, but expecially the student politics as is now is just POV.

A strong faction is represented by Comunione e Liberazione, a right-wing, conservative catholic group, that also controls one of the main copy centres (CUSL), the other (CLUP) being a cooperative.

If you are speaking about "Lista Aperta Per il Diritto allo Studio", it's true, some of its members are part of the catholic CL movement. But not all of them. I think this should be pointed out. And there are members of other groups that are members of CL too. Anyway, I can't see how their religious faith matters. CL is a religious movement, its member are allowed to take part to politic activity if they wish so, as members of other religious groups.

CUSL is a copy center and a bookshop that was born with the mission of providing cheap books to students. In my opinion, they are quite successful, notice that they do not sell the most expensive books (English ones for example) because of their mission. So maybe their presence in this article is justified. CLUP is a bookshop, not a copycenter, nowadays, and it is just an ordinary one, you can't notice the difference with any other bookshop (as Hoepli for example). Obviously they have more books than CUSL.

I can see you support CLUP for historical political reasons, but that should be kept off Wikipedia, in my opinion. It would be better to explain that CLUP was politically related to left wing parties openly. Anyway there's not that much left of that nowadays. For the same reasons, you seem not to appreciate CUSL that much, as you say that CL "controls" it and it is "the main copy centre".

Left-wing groups are present also, but none of these has the size, the economic means or logistic capabilities of CL. This is Wikipedia. You probably could write that on any left-wing newspaper, as it is clearly not neutral. We are trying to give a neutral and comprehensive view of the whole thing, aren't we?

However, when presenting unified candidates for student elections, left-wing candidates have been able to defeat CL candidates from time to time. Can I guess what you voted for, the last time you did it?

If this has to be the politics part of the article, it's better to don't add any. --Lasah 21:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I just stumbled on the article on browsing the recent changes, and my complete disinterest in this subject I think qualifies me for an impartial comment. I must say I find it hard to see any offensive or POV material in the student politics section, and I really don't think the deletion helps the article as a whole. Left-wing, right-wing, religious denomination, etc are generally used to categorize any political movement, so I don't see the harm. Also, information on the size and relative influence of each faction is likewise relevant information, and I fail to see any POV wording there. Of course, if you think the facts are incorrect, go ahead and rewrite it, but please restore the section. Jens Nielsen 22:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I really appreciate your comment, and I'm trying to keep the article unbiased. I think that there are probably a few things that I should point out:

• Lista Aperta is a political movement made of catholic students. Among which there are members of CL but stating Lista Aperta=CL is false, and is a common argument of some (radical) left wing students, that usually add that CL is some kind of mob. So it's false and has a diffamatory echo behind it.
• The CLUP and CUSL problem. There are plenty of copy centres in Città Studi, but these two have a strong political (and social) history. CUSL was born from the catholic movement and the people who work there do it "to help others" and they generally do it for free (they are not paid). CLUP was born from left wing movements for social purposes, as CUSL. They have been very similar (although not politically) for years. Nowadays, CLUP seems an ordinary bookshop and there are no more signs of its original social purposes. Saying that "CL controls the main copy centre" is biased, as it seems to support the mob idea. By the way, it's even not true, since (once again) CL is just a religious movement. It's absurd, like saying that CUSL is owned by the Pope, since it was made by catholics.
• For the reasons explained, I think that sentences like Left-wing groups are present also, but none of these has the size, the economic means or logistic capabilities of CL. are clearly biased (mafia idea) and false (CL is not a political movement and doesn't "control" or own Lista Aperta).

I would like this article to be a good one, since it speaks about my university. Please let me know what you think about it, since your impartial view is valuable to me. I will rewrite, as I have a bit of spare time that section trying to eliminate bias. Lasah 13:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've reworded the section a bit while retaining most of the pertinent facts. I hope this can be more acceptable to all sides while doing justice to the facts too. Now I'll go back to my regular wikiwork and leave you people to work out whatever remains. Regards, Jens Nielsen 13:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi to both, thanks for chiming in on that section. I tried to summarize a little bit more and be as clear and unbiased as possible, keeping what is of interest and throwing away what arguably isn't. Of course I look forward to your refinements if you find better formulations :) --Raistlin 09:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Good work, what do you think about the sentence: The logo of Politecnico di Milano is a sketch of a particular of Raffaello's School of Athens.. I'm unsure about the use of the words sketch and particular in this context, is it good English or just rough translation from Italian? --Lasah 19:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposal of reorganization/enrichment

Hi! I have read the page about the Politecnico di Milano and, being a student of this university, I don't like very much this page. So I have a proposal of reorganization/enrichment. Looking at other university pages I'd like to reorganize the page as follows:

(Intro) As it is.

History As it is. I'd like to expand it but I found very hard finding infos about the Politecnico history.

Institution(Taking Harvard page as example)

Admission Here I'd insert the infos on the admission test.

Organization Here I'd put the list of department, already present in the "structure" chapter. I'd insert a brief paragraph about the on-line course.

Educational Activities As it is.

Library Here I'd insert a ref to the OPAC system and the libraries across the campus. (In Harvard page there is also museum section along with library; I know somewhere in the Politecnico there are "holy relics" :), such as in the Science Information Dept.,but probably it is excessive insert them as part of a museum...)

Research As it is.

Student Life Here I'd put: fees, structure of the campus (from the "structure" paragraph), bed, renting problems and I'd add something about the wi-fi.

• Be careful on maintaining NPOV. It was a hard fight to create consensus... --Raistlin 10:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Organizations Here I'd put: CLUP, CUSL, ISU and i'd like to add something about student groups (such as Poul and suggest me others if know them) and Educafe.

Student Politics Demonstrating that I have a "generally low interest for the issue" I have very few information about this argument. However I could add the link some links I've found (Terna Sinistrorsa, Terzo Polo)

• I'm still for deleting it altogether, but do what you can. NPOV please! --Raistlin 10:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Criticism Saying first of all that I don't agree with Orzetto, I don't intend to erase his paragraphs but I'd like to move those about bureacracy and barons in a paragraph entitled criticism.

• Go ahead. --Raistlin 10:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Trivia Ok, as it is.

Before writing what I've proposed (and find all reverted :)) can I have your opinion? --Eldar Featel 12:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Politecnico di Milano "brand" cannot be transalated in any way (it's written on the Politecnico brochure)

POV issues

The first two comments moved from User talk:Orzetto

Although study conditions at the Politecnico di Milano may well be as you make them out to be in your edits, you really need to cite some sources for your negative criticism. Surely some writer on education in Italy, some government commission, or at least a newspaper, perhaps the student union paper, must have written about this? By putting too much emphasis on the negative, without citing sources, you are likely sooner or later to end up in a revert or edit war with somebody else, and being able to cite other references than personal opinions or experiences is important for both parties in such a situation. If you cite some verifiable sources, anyone wanting to counter your view will be forced to do so to, and we will hopefully end up with a well-sourced NPOV article. u p p l a n d 09:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Study conditions at the Politecnico are not third-world like. Surely, Italian universities are not like Norway's, but still the Politecnico is one of the largest and best ran universities in the Italian public system. It has been ranked as the 56th university in the world for engineering, so surely not a leader, but neither such an hell-on-earth as the article described. Also, each department in the Politecnico produces hundreds of peer-reviewed papers each year, it is enough to do a quick search on the ACM or IEEE portals to realize that. Your article is not NPOV, so I reverted the changes to mine, which is in encyclopedic style and line-by-line verifiable. And please, keep the politics section out of it - it's outdated, non neutral and basically of no interest whatsoever. --Raistlin 22:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

First I am a former student of Politecnico and I still have contacts there. User Raistolo has reverted changes I have made (which again I reverted back). My reasons are:

The Politecnico di Milano is now ranked as one of the most outstanding European universities in Engineering, Architecture and Industrial Design, and in many disciplines is regarded as a leading research institution worldwide.

This is vague and unsourced, and clearly POV. Citing positions in international graduatories is acceptable, but these claims add no information, and look more like an advertisement brochure than an encyclopedic entry.

Actual location vs. current location

This should not be an issue, it's just English.

The Politecnico di Milano Technical University is strongly oriented towards scientific and technological research

It is a Polytechnic. What should it be oriented towards? This paragraph is redundant.

Furthermore, the constant involvement of the academic staff in research activities allow them to transfer the results of both technological evolution and scientific progress to their students in real time, improving the educational offer of the Institution.

There is no transfer whatsoever of laboratory research to students. The whole Italian academic system is theory-book-based, and according to some it's not even a bad thing (people take more time to adapt in the industry, but can adapt to more things). I got a degree in chemical engineering there, and had only two labs (inorganic and organic chemistry), and we had a lot compared to others. No lab activity we had was particularly groundbreaking. Such a transfer may happen to students working for their theses (and therefore doing original research), but is hardly remarkable—any university does just that.

Research activities take place mainly at the Departments, where they are developed by a large number of research groups.

By all means, where else? In the administration building? How large number anyway? Again, redundant.

Starting from Giulio Natta, Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1963, many scientists working at the Politecnico di Milano received awards and recognition by the scientific community.

Natta I kept, of course. But what others? Is there a list of peer-reviewed papers available? Cite examples.

About my arguments that appear to be unpopular with Raistolo:

• Student dorms: I sourced my claims with even the exact number of beds as stated by Politecnico. People looking for Politecnico on Wikipedia could be international students who want to spend an exchange year there, and this is useful for them.
• Illegality of renting conditions: you cannot honestly deny this. I have not seen a legitimate renting contract in all the years I was there.
• Incompetence of some professors: I hedged a bit stating in first place that there are indeed many good professors, and I stand by that: I had excellent professors e.g. in Calculus, Thermodynamics, Chemical kinetics, Physics, Process control and Economy. However, it is known that freaks exist and are removed only with difficulty by the system. I do not want to hang out names here, but my examples are:
  • A professor in IT who got a degree with pascal and had the exam in C, which she did not know (the assistant did the work), and did not even mention the Internet (it was a few years ago however);
  • A professor in electrical science who was in bad need of a crash-course in pronounciation (a lot of us had problems understanding his babbling, entire minutes went without understanding a word at times), and who could not even write the numbers 1 and 2 in clearly different way (so all proofs were quite difficult to interpret). Curiously, his assistant was probably the one with best teaching skills I have seen.
  • A professor who had several students who had to repeat the exam 7 times over, because he was very harsh in his interviews. Episodes of students running away just before the exam out of angst were known.
  • A professor in economy gave very random marks. In my course, two actually handed in completely identical answers, and got significantly different marks (22 and 26). The professor had previously been convicted for corruption (and he kept his post with no fuss at all).
  • A professor (very competent in his subject, possibly the best prepared I had) had a very, very bad personal hygiene problem. I am not that picky, but this one was impressive. The same professors gave insane amounts of syllabus, and the exam ended up being on something different, but still a lot of mnemonics rather than insight.
  • A professor in construction science had his exam prepared by the professor of the same course in another section, but the students were left unprepared for the exam and had to "migrate" to the other professor's course to learn how to complete the exercises. Of course, being 200 students moving, there were not enough sitting places, and there were high flunking rates.
• That the Politecnico administration is a pain is a well-known fact. It might be taken for granted in the Italian Wikipedia, but visitors should be informed that it is uncommonly difficult to work with.
• Student loss: the ~70% figure is a common one for all Italian universities, I am afraid I have no specific data about Politecnico, but if anything I expect it to be higher. Post any different data you may have.
• Student politics: I cannot understand why this section has been deleted. What is the problem here?

--Orzetto 09:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I moved the comments of Raistlin and myself from your talkpage, as they are required for context. My point was that you need to have references to add this type of information. To claim that something is a "well-known fact" just isn't enough. I predicted that somebody would revert your version already before Raistlin did so; if you have been on Wikipedia for a while, you should know that adding clear POV to an article, even if that POV may arguably be correct or at least widespread, is inviting an edit or revert war. Instead of wasting your time on the talkpage arguing that your views are correct, I suggest you just find some reasonably noeworthy reference making these claims. As I mentioned above, it would probably be fine if you could put it in terms of "the paper of the student union of the PdiM has repeatedly criticized the administration of the university for being A, B and C" (obviously with references to issues).

I would like to add that positive POV, speaking in vague terms of the prestige of an institution, exists in abundance on Wikipedia and is on the whole probably a greater problem (see Wikipedia:Avoid academic boosterism), and such views also need to be attributed and referenced. But in reality, it is never as controversial, as most who care about an article on a university are somewhat loyal students or alumni. For the record, I have no personal connection to the Politecnico di Milano. u p p l a n d 09:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record and for disclosure, I am --Raistlin 17:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I understand you need sources, but from my POV it is like you were asking for a paper stating the moon is round. It is such a common perception that the administration is "not exactly of austro-hungarian efficiency" by students that I did not think much of looking for references. Anyway, this could be a pointer: students evaluating the Politecnico mention a number of times the administration (in Italian segreteria) and general organization as weak points of the university. Use Babelfish to get the gist of the messages. However, I am not sure a forum is an acceptable source.

I do not think you will find much in student unions' papers, first because of the generally low interest in politics, second because student unions are not much active anyway (the most active one, connected to CL is mostly busy with religious issues), and third this is sadly considered somewhat normal in Italy (A bit worse than normal maybe, but not enough to attract extraordinary attention); I will try to look anyway, maybe something can be found. While this may be obvious in the Italian Wikipedia, in the English one it should be mentioned that administration can be difficult to deal with.

I hope you appreciated I did indeed provide sources for the lack of dormitories (only one Italian university has a US-style campus, but I cannot remember which one—it was a small one in central Italy) and illegal renting conditions (seriously, contesting that is either propaganda or plain ignorance of a well-known situation).

I know that there are a lot of good people over there, but a Wikipedia article cannot sound like an advertisement. Sentences like "among the most outstanding..." are out of place: Politecnico is large enough to be in most international graduatories (Raistlin cited 56th place in the world; then write that in!), so that data should get in. --Orzetto 10:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

---

I will place my answers here.

The Politecnico di Milano is now ranked as one of the most outstanding European universities in Engineering, Architecture and Industrial Design, and in many disciplines is regarded as a leading research institution worldwide.

This is vague and unsourced, and clearly POV. Citing positions in international graduatories is acceptable, but these claims add no information, and look more like an advertisement brochure than an encyclopedic entry.

The Politecnico is the largest italian university in Engineering, and therefore one of the largest and most outstanding in Europe. Moreover, institutions traditionally have, in encyclopedias, a vaguely positive POV, as noted before. This is not different.

The Politecnico di Milano Technical University is strongly oriented towards scientific and technological research

It is a Polytechnic. What should it be oriented towards? This paragraph is redundant.

Aw, come on...

There is no transfer whatsoever of laboratory research to students.

This, as of now, is completely false.

I got a degree in chemical engineering there,

Years ago. The Politecnico has deeply changed since then. Your opinion is outdated (and irrelevant, anyways)

Research activities take place mainly at the Departments, where they are developed by a large number of research groups.

By all means, where else? In the administration building? How large number anyway? Again, redundant.

It's a way of phrasing. Feel free to rephrase. Don't feel free to delete.

Starting from Giulio Natta, Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1963, many scientists working at the Politecnico di Milano received awards and recognition by the scientific community.

Natta I kept, of course. But what others? Is there a list of peer-reviewed papers available? Cite examples.

Look for them on search engines, I found between 1000 and 2000 just in the computer science literature which I'm familiar with, with 3 searches. A number of ACM and IEEE fellows are teaching in my department. Not to cite the breakthroughs of professors such as Dadda and Somalvico, again, just in my field.

Illegality of renting conditions: you cannot honestly deny this. I have not seen a legitimate renting contract in all the years I was there.

I think your renting experience is unencyclopedic.

Incompetence of some professors

Incompetents exist everywhere. Again, your personal experience is not encyclopedic.

That the Politecnico administration is a pain is a well-known fact.

I think it's irrelevant.

Student loss: the ~70% figure is a common one for all Italian universities, I am afraid I have no specific data about Politecnico

Then it doesn't belong here.

Student politics: I cannot understand why this section has been deleted. What is the problem here?

That it's both outdated and unencyclopedic ?

As far as lodging is concerned here [2] that your informations are completely wrong.

--Raistlin 17:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

(Please keep legibility and consistent indentation) You claim that "The Politecnico is the largest italian university in Engineering, and therefore one of the largest and most outstanding in Europe." This is a non sequitur. You also say that "institutions traditionally have, in encyclopedias, a vaguely positive POV": POV is POV, and is not NPOV. This is not advanced logic.

I reassert that no significant involvement of students in research is taking place. This is simply not the way Italian universities work. This is actually not the way most universities work at all.

I got my degree in 2002. The Politecnico is still the same according to people I know who are still there, so my knowledge is quite fresh. It would be interesting what is your position in relation to the Politecnico.

Research quantity and quality: if you have search statistics, by all means, put it in the Research section. Boasting is unacceptable, if you have a list of inventions developed at the Politecnico that's better.

I am not going to discuss the illegality of renting conditions in Milan. It's like discussing the existence of the moon. One has to be really, really biased to deny a plain fact like that. About lodging, my informations were copied from Politecnico's own website, a reference you promptly removed. --Orzetto 21:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You are ignoring other people's opinions - never mind facts. You ask ME for statistics, but do not provide any for your opinions. I have tens of students cooperating on my research and publishing with me. I frankly don't care, let's keep reverting then. --Raistlin 22:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

And by the way - your link on lodging is the wrong one. Mine is the correct one, and it states the figures. --Raistlin 22:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone (sorry, I cannot understand who, this talk page it is too garbled) complained about Starting from Giulio Natta, Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1963, many scientists working at the Politecnico di Milano received awards and recognition by the scientific community. This was his/her answer: "Natta I kept, of course. But what others? Is there a list of peer-reviewed papers available? Cite examples." Now, there are plenty of scientists working at Politecnico di Milano who received awards and recognitions. As an example, Prof. Ceri (http://www.elet.polimi.it/upload/ceri/), he has been the recipient of the VLDB 10 year award (http://www-nishio.ist.osaka-u.ac.jp/vldb/archives/public/10year/10year.html), more or less the Nobel of its field (http://www.vldb.org/), but really, you can get tens of similar examples. --Alessandro Riolo 13:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Errata

The "Student life" section has a duplicate paragraph about campus wireless networks.

Apropos of comments on this page, if you are a native speaker of a Romance language, please note that in English the word "information" is NEVER pluralized (ie. there is no word "informations" in English). Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.225.54.43 (talk) 16:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

ciao polo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.2.79 (talk) 07:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Webpolimi, 19 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Change from:

Type State-supported Technical University Rector Prof. Giulio Ballio Admin. staff 1,264 Students 38,343 Location Milan, Como, Lecco, Mantova, Cremona, Piacenza, Italy Website www.polimi.it/

to:

Type State-supported Technical University Rector Prof. Giovanni Azzone Admin. staff 1,187 Students 35,434 Location Milan, Como, Lecco, Mantova, Cremona, Piacenza, Italy Website www.english.polimi.it/

Webpolimi (talk) 10:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Partly done: According to the website you linked to, the # of staff is 1355, and the number of students is 25,952. I will add those numbers, and make the rest of the changes. I also changed the lead to match the same infoQwyrxian (talk) 03:44, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 131.175.12.86, 20 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change from:

Admin. staff 1,355 Students 25,952

to:

Faculty 1377 Admin. staff 1,187 Students 35,434

131.175.12.86 (talk) 11:03, 20 January 2011 (UTC) Not done: The numbers were taken directly from the school's website. Please point where on their site the numbers you're quoting come from.Qwyrxian (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 131.175.12.86, 20 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change from:

Admin. staff 1,355 Students 25,952

to:

Faculty 1377 Admin. staff 1,187 Students 35,434

131.175.12.86 (talk) 11:10, 20 January 2011 (UTC) Not done: The numbers were taken directly from the school's website. Please point where on their site the numbers you're quoting come from.Qwyrxian (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 131.175.12.86, 21 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} I actually work at Politecnico di Milano and I would like to update the information. I don't know where you got data differente from mine... I am going to talk to my colleague and let you know

131.175.12.86 (talk) 11:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I got it from the link that you provided a few edit requests up, specifically on this subpage. And, looking at it, it appears that I got the faculty wrong--I only put down the number for professors and researchers, but you'll note that the number of students is explicitly listed as less than 26,000. I'll correct the number for staff now. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from KeoHK, 18 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} The Student politics paragraph should be changed as follow below as it's been almost 3 years since the main groups have changed. It's in italian, no english version. Please use google translate http://www.polimi.it/studenti/accedi-ai-servizi/associazioni-studentesche/

Please change

Student politics

Currently, the three main political groups in student's elections are:

• Lista aperta per il diritto allo studio ("Open list for the right to study"), whose members are also usually part of the Catholic movement Comunione e Liberazione. The movement is arguably right-wing, even if it defines itself as "not politically oriented";
• La Terna Sinistrorsa—Liberi Studenti Democratici ("The left-hand coordinate system—Free Democratic Students"), the left-wing organization; both denominations are puns on the Cartesian three-dimensional coordinate system and LSD.

into

Student politics

Currently, the three main political groups in student's elections are:

• Lista aperta per il diritto allo studio ("Open list for the right to study"), whose members are also usually part of the Catholic movement Comunione e Liberazione. The movement is arguably right-wing, even if it defines itself as "not politically oriented";
• La Terna Sinistrorsa—Liberi Studenti Democratici ("The left-hand coordinate system—Free Democratic Students"), the left-wing organization; both denominations are puns on the Cartesian three-dimensional coordinate system and LSD.
• "SvoltaStudenti.it | La Students' Union del Politecnico di Milano" ("The Student's Union of Politecnico di Milano"), which takes inspiration from the Anglo-Saxon student-groups, is not politically oriented and its main purpose is to provide services to the students.

KeoHK (talk) 00:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC) --KeoHK (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Done — Bility (talk) 19:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 December 2011 - "terna sinistrorsa" name update

please change:

• La Terna Sinistrorsa—Liberi Studenti Democratici ("The left-hand coordinate system—Free Democratic Students"), the left-wing organization; both denominations are puns on the Cartesian three-dimensional coordinate system and LSD.

to:

• La Terna Sinistrorsa ("The left-hand coordinate system"), the left-wing organization; the denomination is a pun on the Cartesian three-dimensional coordinate system .

because : liberi studenti democratici is not anymore identified in the name of the group . 2.37.148.128 (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Minima© (talk) 05:27, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 December 2011

A more appropriate link to *Bioingegneria (Bioengineering) is *Bioingegneria (Biomedical Engineering) Tntgroup66 (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Not done: They refer to it themselves as Bioengineering. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 19:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Affiliation missing

There is an affiliation missing which is PEGASUS. Regards. 80.13.85.217 (talk) 06:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved, by consensus, backed by citations to relevant evidence and consistency in naming. bd2412 T 20:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Politecnico di Milano → Polytechnic University of Milan – This is the only article about an Italian university with the original name as a title. It would be preferable to standardize all the titles to the English language (see Polytechnic University of Turin for example). --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 03:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Enok (talk) 14:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Politecnico di Milano is the official international name, widely used in english sources and in the official english website of the university ([3]). It is surely the most recognizable name. As a personal experience, being a student at the Politecnico and having been 1 year abroad in an english speaking university, I've never heard people referring to the Politecnico with the english translation, both in ordinary talk and in official documents. --Ita140188 (talk) 15:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

  Just saying that every Italian university has an official name and it is also used in an international contest. But here on Wikipedia the titles of the articles are in English. --Enok (talk) 03:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  See WP:official names. The lead argument above has no grounds according to Wikipedia article naming policy. Andrewa (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Chronicles of Higher Education has one example of "Politecnico University," one for "Polytechnic University." So I would go with English, especially now that this university is shifting to teaching entirely in English. 192.186.141.233 (talk) 22:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

  Adding more sources: Times Higher Education, Business Week, EduIcon, Compagnie Générale de Géophysique, Ansaldo, etc. Also, just look at [Google Books].--Enok (talk) 03:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  This is pointless. Some examples don't mean anything, since I can always find the same number of different sources referring to the university with the Italian name (but I'm not going to waste my time doing it). You should find a proof that the english name is significantly more common than the Italian one in english sources. --Ita140188 (talk) 10:21, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  I think they are both equally used, as indeed for all other Italian universities. I still do not understand why this article should be different.--Enok (talk) 14:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  I don't think this is true. There is a common practice of translating names of Universities, and you will rarely find Università di Bologna instead of University of Bologna in english sources. But some other names, usually those not comprising the word "università", are usually left with the original name. This is true also for non-italian university with english names in Italian sources, for example see w:it:Categoria:Università nel Regno Unito or w:it:KAIST etc. By the way, I repeat, I would also change the name of Polytechnic University of Turin to Politecnico di Torino. --Ita140188 (talk) 16:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support. A good case has been made above that the English name is the one in most common use. Andrewa (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  As I said before, citing few examples does not mean anything. I can cite for example BBC, TIME association, QS these are just the first results in google if you search for Politecnico di Milano with english results only, but of course you can find many more if you have time. --Ita140188 (talk) 18:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  Which is an excellent point. And the argument presented for the Italian suffers even more from this particular problem, so far. See the comment below, the suggested reading may help you to present relevant evidence. Andrewa (talk) 19:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

  Ah! And of course the english version of the official Politecnico website, of course. --Ita140188 (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

  Please read Wikipedia:official names before popping the champagne corks on this one. And of course the official policy which the official names essay seeks to make accessible. Andrewa (talk) 19:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

  I don't understand if you agree with me or not. Of course I already know the naming policy, that's why I would suggest that before changing the status quo, relevant evidence of the english name being substantially more common than the Italian name in english sources should be presented. The policy of not using official names works well for the 2-acetyloxybenzoic acid. But in this case, in my opinion, the official name is more recognizable than the english one. Also because the official english website, which is the main way people from outside interact with the university, use only the Italian name. --Ita140188 (talk) 09:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title of the article

May I know why the title of this page is maintained in English, while that of the Polytechnic University of Turin is translated? --Enok (talk) 14:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Because the official international name of the Politecnico di Milano is "Politecnico di Milano". See the official english website http://www.polimi.it/en/ or other external links such as rankings http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/faculty-rankings/engineering-and-technology/2013. It's essentially the same with Roma Tre, you don't change it to "Rome Three". Please stop reverting it to the english translation. I don't know about Politecnico di Torino. --Ita140188 (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

What is the difference with the Polytechnic of Turin and other Italian universities? "Roma Tre" is the proper noun; "University" is translated (see Roma Tre University). --Enok (talk) 14:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Politecnico di Milano is the proper name in this context. Moreover, it is the most common name also in english (check google) and it should be kept according to WP:COMMONNAME. --Ita140188 (talk) 14:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I would change also the name for the Politecnico di Torino, but an administrator is needed in that case since the page has already been moved before. The reason why I didn't take care of that before is that I'm not that interested in editing that page. --Ita140188 (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

"Politecnico di Milano" isn't a proper noun; it means "Polytechnic University of Milan". I don't understand why this is the only article of an Italian university with the original title. Everything you've said can be true for all other universities, but it's not applied on English Wikipedia.--Enok (talk) 14:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for opening the official discussion below. --Ita140188 (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Seriously a voting took place to... rename a university? "Politecnico" is not a Polytechnic institute, it is a university. It grants bachelor, master's and Ph.D. degrees. In most English-speaking countries, a Polytechnic is another thing. That's why this is not a matter of opinion: translating the name is plain wrong. Raistlin (talk) 11:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)