Talk:Pool (cue sports)

History is seriously lacking

Unresolved

 – Still needs work in this area 3 years later.

This article is lacking information on the origins and progression of pool. Can anyone add to this and improve the history section? --Bodybagger (talk) 04:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Contradictory and unfocused

Unresolved

 – Confusing wording in lead fixed, but lead is still too thin, and does not summarize article.

I think this article is a mess. Take for example the very first sentence:

"Pocket billiards, most commonly referred to as pool, is the general term for a family of games played on a specific class of billiards table, having 6 receptacles called pockets (or "holes") along the rails, in which balls are deposited as the main goal of play."

Either pool is a synonym for Pocket Billiards or Pocket Billiards is the name of a family of games played on a table with 6 pockets which including English billiards and snooker, but it if the latter then, it is not pool because no one calls English billiard and snooker pool. The confusion is reinforced by the sentence "Cue sports that are played on pocketless tables are generally referred to as carom billiards."

I propose that we alter the lead to read:

Pocket billiards, most commonly referred to as pool, is the general term for a family of games played on a pocket billiards table (or pool table), having 6 receptacles called pockets (or "holes") along the rails, in which balls are deposited as the main goal of play.

+another paragraph which briefly sums up the article.

--PBS (talk) 11:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Sorry I still have a problem with the phrase 'most commonly' I really think some notion of geographical usage needs to be highlighted, seriously I know all these points have been addressed before, but anyone coming to the UK and asking for a game of pocket billiards will get a serious surprise (if they expected to play pool), or may even start a fight !!!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeShaw (talk • contribs) 18:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

That objection is like saying that Buttocks should be moved to Arse. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 20:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Source

A comprehensive history of the sport was published by Snap Magazine in its January/February, 1991 History Issue. -- Guzanglethorp (talk · contribs), 16:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

For a previous requests see Archive 1: Requested move and Undo move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: do not rename.--Mike Selinker (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC) Mike Selinker (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

---

Pool (cue sports) → Pocket billiards — "Pocket billiards" is an industry-standard term and has been for around a century now (see sources cited at the CfD mentioned below). Keeping this article unnecessarily disambiguated as Pool (cue sports) is almost certainly going to lead to the relevant category, Category:Pool, which really should be Category:Pocket billiards, moved to Category:Pool (cue sports), judging from the direction that this CfD is taking (against the naming conventions, actually, but that's another story, which I also cover in detail at the CfD, the summary being that category and article naming conventions differ). A long-winded, disambiguated category name like that is "user-hateful" (and editor-hateful, for that matter). The simplest way out of this mess is to use the industry-standard term rather than the vernacular, since it is recognized, sourceable (sourced, actually, by me at the CfD), and not ambiguous. WP:COMMON only applies when it doesn't cause problems, and its application here is definitely causing problems. The actual applicability of WP:COMMON is questionable anyway; the vernacular term is not always the preferable article title (cf. Vagina/Penis/Breast/Buttocks vs. a very large number of vernacular words many of which are far more common than these, or Category:Flying disc vs. Category:Frisbee and a thousand other examples. I let this particular matter drop over a year ago, but the CfD forces the issue back open again in a new light. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 20:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Survey

• Support If there is a non-parenthetical article title, that clearly identifies the subject of the article, than it should be prefed over the parenthetical version. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 23:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: "For the record", as they say, please note that Armbrust was the nominator of the CfD mentioned above. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 05:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Despite The Music Man, pool is not vulgar, and it is the common name of the game. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC):

• Comment: As I already noted above, WP:COMMON does not trump all other considerations. This is a case where it doesn't. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 05:20, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • COMMONNAME does not trump all other principles. But the burden is to show what advantage ignoring it would have, since it is a cost to give an article an uncommon title; the only argument so far is that it is analogous to using Vagina, which we do not see; pool has four letters - but it is not an obscenity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm not a big pool/billiards player myself but I've never heard it referred to as pocket billiards in common speech. Pool will undoubtedly be the most common search term. Pool is a currently disambiguation, and this arrangement doesn't seem to be causing any issue. With the current method searchers are obviously finding the content they are seeking. I am not convinced that the proposed title will make it easier for users to find the content.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:58, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose I am a pool player and I've never heard it called that either, and I'm completely sure that the vast majority of pool players in the UK would say the same thing. I've heard the term "pocket billiards" but didn't even realise it referred to the same thing. "Pocket billiards" is clearly a regionalism, and the article should remain at a name recognisable to the majority of our readers. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:27, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Pmanderson - you need a good reason to override WP:COMMONNAME (like vulgarity, which does not apply here). I also disagree that lack of parentheses is a good reason to use a less common name when the most common name needs to be disambiguated with parentheses. Also per Black Kite - "pocket billiards" is a regionalism. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Pocket billiards has a totally different meaning here in the United Kingdom, where it refers to playing with your testicles while keeping your hands in the pockets of your trousers! Skinsmoke (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

According to the OED, both pool and pocket billiards are originally American terms (for originally American games). Pocket billiards has been around since 1910; pool has been around since 1797, and is quoted from 1992 and 2003. It is the standard, normal, and encyclopedic term; I see no necessity to flee to a euphemism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

OED

So that I did not copy too much text into the article I have written "and its other specific definitions are all for games that originate in the United States of America" Here is the rest of the text from the OED:

pool, n.3.2

(b) U.S. a game played with balls numbered 1 to 15, the number of each ball pocketed being added to a player's score (also known as straight pool); (c) orig. U.S. a game using two sets of seven coloured or patterned balls, together with one black ball and one white cue ball, the aim being to pocket all of one's own balls followed by the black; = eight ball n. a; (d) orig. and chiefly U.S. a game using a white cue ball and coloured balls numbered 1 to 9, the object being to pocket the black nine ball by a combination shot at any point in the game, or directly after having pocketed the other balls in numerical order (also known as nine-ball).

The OED list the following collective nouns relating to pool billiards: pool hall, pool joint, pool parlour, pool player, pool shooter and pool table.

--PBS (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Meh. Dictionaries are tertiary sources and have to be used with caution, usually in groups, because few of them ever agree on definitions except of the most basic words.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:56, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Swap some of text with this article and Cue sports

Thanks to a quirk of editing history, we have a detailed description of pool games in the general article Cue sports#Games played on a pool table and a far less detailed description in Pool (cue sports)#Game types. So I am going to swap the two section. -- PBS (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Pool

I am removing some of the text from the history section of the article that has had citation needed since November last year. The Oxford English dictionary lists the billiards game of pool under a heading called: pool, n.3. The etymology section says "French poule collective stakes in a game (1665, with reference to the card game reversis; now especially in billards (1832), also in betting (1856, originally on horses)), of uncertain origin, perhaps a transferred use of poule hen ... perhaps with allusion to contemporary collocations or proverbs ..."

There are three entries under pool, n.3:

• I. Senses relating to games, sport, and betting.
  • 1. Cards.
  • a. A game, hand, or round in which there is a collective stake to be won....
  • b. The collective stakes put forward by players in a game, hand, or round; the kitty, the pot.
  • 2. Any of various types of billiards for two or more players [the original game being on] in which each player uses a cue ball of a distinctive colour to pocket the balls of the other player(s) in a certain order, the winner taking all the stakes submitted at the start of the contest.
  • 3. Shooting. A contest in which each competitor pays a certain sum for every shot he or she fires, the proceeds being divided among the winners.
  • 4. Betting.
    • a. The collective stakes bet on the competitors in a contest, the proceeds being divided among the backers of the winner

There are a number of others including the British football pools, but all of them seem to involved people pooling a money into a pot with the winner taking it.

The first reference the OED has for Pool billiards is: 1797 Alexandria (Virginia) Advertiser 21 Oct. 4/4 (advt.) "Any gentlemen wishing to play the Game of Pool, can be accommodated with Balls for the purpose".

According to the OED this pre-dates the pool betting on horses usage by 60 years so the current text in the article

"due to perhaps an association with the poolrooms where gamblers pooled their money to bet off-track on horse races. Because these venues often provided billiard tables, the term pool eventually became synonymous with billiards."

for which there is no citation seems to be speculative and so I intend to remove it.

The article also says:

"As the traditional view of billiards as a refined and noble pastime did not blend well with the low-class connotations of gambling, the billiards industry began to distance itself from the term pool beginning in the late 19th century."

Again this is speculation without a source. For example traditionally in Britain gambling was also a gentleman's pastime and a gentleman was expected to pay his gambling debts before he paid his tailor! So I am going to remove the un-cited speculation. -- PBS (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Equipment section

 Fixed

Equipment section is missing a lot of dimensions. Seems like someone went through and deleted the numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.227.78 (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Seems fine now.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:57, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Equipment problems

Dmensions are fine, but a visual description of the balls is missing -- e.g., how many balls in a standard set; numbering of the balls; color of the balls; solids versus stripes; etc. Would have fixed this, but editing seems to be broken for this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Blank lines

change two blank lines to one blank line right before the section "Cutthroat"

Done, thanks! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Term "pocket billiards"

Without wanting to seem salacious, I draw your attention to the fact that (at least in the 1970s and -80s) the term "pocket billiards" was commonly used in (at least parts of) the UK as a joking reference to the practice of surruptitiously masturbating with a hand placed in one's side trouser pocket. Would this warrant a disambiguation page? {the poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.241 (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Already covered at Pocket billiards (disambiguation). William Avery (talk) 16:26, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2021

Hi, I would like to make an edit regarding a new type of pool being commonly played in the South East of England, called Nitty Pool where pool is played with hands and concerns differing rules and regulations to the regular form of eight ball pool. Crashcareng (talk) 09:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2021

Pool Is Invented In France Can You Put A Word Saying Pool Is Invented In France 86.10.65.201 (talk) 18:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Hemanthah (talk) 19:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Typo (weighbfrom)

Request to fix typo (weighbfrom) in Equipment section Ash (talk) 19:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed. The string "weighbfrom" no longer appears in the article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Typo for Billiard

Billard is spelled wrong in the first sentence. Please correct me if I’m wrong. 178.255.168.125 (talk) 11:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed The string "billard" no longer appears in the article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:04, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

"Pool (sports)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Pool (sports) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 25 § Pool (sports) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Notes and references

The "notes" and "references" sections need some standardization. Which ones should be sorted into "notes" and which ones to "references", and what to do with the extra references? Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 07:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)