Talk:Pope Paul VI

Papal election on 21 June, and coronation on 30 June 1963

To anyone's knowledge, is there information explaining in more detail the breakneck speed in which the diocese of Milan was able to gift a completely newly designed tiara for Paul VI's coronation on 30 June 1963 (i.e. within nine days of his election to the seat of St. Peter)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.122.53.113 (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

For one thing, John XXIII passed away on 3 June, so that's an extra 27 days when everyone knew there would be a new Pontiff. Also, was there something unique and bespoke about the tiara that said they custom-designed it for that person? Or was it just a newly designed tiara that had been knocking around for a while and awaiting the occasion? For all we know, it could've been intended for John and they missed their chance. But I would imagine that tiara designers are more proactive than waiting for a conclave and election. Elizium23 (talk) 20:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

@Elizium23: Thank you for your comments and feedback. Based on everything I've read with regards to Paul VI's papal tiara: There was a certain precedent that a pope's former diocese or archdiocese would gift to him a new papal tiara sometime after his accession to the chair of St. Peter. Such was the case e.g. with John XXIII who received in mid-1959 a newly made lightweight tiara, designed by Attilio Nani, from the provincial administration of Bergamo (Sotto il Monte, his home village, is located in Bergamo province of the Lombardy region of Italy). But John XXIII was crowned on 4 November 1958 with the 1877 Palatine Tiara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Johnxxiii-color-tiara-sm.jpg), as were all popes following Pius IX up to Paul VI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_papal_tiaras_in_existence#cite_note-chico-13). Another example is Pius XI who was crowned with the 1877 Palatine Tiara, too, on 12 February 1922, and was gifted his new tiara by his former archdiocese of Milan later that year in 1922. Pius XII, however, was never gifted a papal tiara since he had been a career diplomat and had served as nuntio and in curia positions (but never as ordinary of an active metropolitan see) before his election as pope. Prima facie evidence suggests that the design and manufacture of a papal tiara may take about 6 months, potentially longer. And a tiara wasn't something you got from Gammarelli's but from a goldsmith. E.g. when the British imperial state crown was completely remade by Garrad's in 1936/37 it took them about a year to do so. Paul VI's tiara, with which he was crowned on 30 June 1963, was custom made for him by the workshops of the Scuola Beato Angelico in Milan. If it had been intended for John XXIII it would not have fit John XXIII since he had quite a different head shape and a larger head size than Paul VI, and viewing from the pictures available, Paul VI's tiara was even a tight fit for Paul VI himself. It is also worthy of note that the design of Paul VI's tiara departed from previous design forms ('bullet shape' vs 'bee-hive shape') and its main conical corpus appears to have been worked from silver (with flower shaped cut-outs) and not white felt. Its design and craftsmanship, however, are so unique it appears unlikely to be made almost (if not literally) overnight. To make a long story short: if this newly designed tiara had indeed been 'knocking around for a while and awaiting the occasion', did the archdiocese of Milan expect cardinal Montini to be elected pope at some point in the near to mid-term future and hedged their bets by ordering a new tiara for Montini to be made well in advance of John XXIII's passing away? While it is now public information that John XXIII was diagnosed with stomach cancer in September 1962, he guarded this information a secret not to risk the convocation and start of the Second Vatican Council, and he did not refer to his health status publicly before April 1963 - but that may not work time wise either (see above). It would be quite interesting to learn when exactly the Paul VI tiara was commissioned, and by whom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.122.53.113 (talk) 20:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to your questions. Nobody really knows unless we have reliable secondary sources that would document minutiae like this, it has no place on Wikipedia, or really, even this talk page. Elizium23 (talk) 02:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

New map added

A new map has been added to this article - [File:Foreign trips of Paul VI.svg].

The previous map had four errors per a 19 January 2011 note left on the previous map's Discussion page

* The first two are rather confusing. You may want to read the Wikipedia article on Bangladesh for further clarification. In 1970, Pope Paul VI visited the city of Dacca, Pakistan. However Dacca is now Dhaka and is the capital city of Bangladesh. When the Pope visited Dacca, it was located in the part of Pakistan that was then known as East Pakistan. After the Bangladesh Liberation War in 1971, East Pakistan broke away from Pakistan and became the seperate nation of Bangladesh. Therefore, Pakistan should NOT be colored yellow on this map and Bangladesh SHOULD be colored yellow.

* Jordan was visited by Pope Paul VI in 1964. It SHOULD be colored yellow.

* France was NOT visited by Pope Paul VI during his papacy. It should NOT be colored yellow."

The new map [File:Foreign trips of Paul VI.svg] corrects the above errors. A special "thank you" to User:Golden for creating the new map. Mtminchi08 (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The Pope in the Tempest

In Paul VI: The Pope in the Tempest, there are some mentions that may be interesting for this article. Can you find references for them?

• Montini has a study group of French philosophers with students such as Aldo Moro who would later found the Christian Democracy. The article says "a friend of Paul VI's from his FUCI student days", but it is the only mention to FUCI in the article. He later counsels the party leaders. The article should mention more of his involvement with the DC and DC personalities.
• He bounds with Pius XII(?) over Brescian dialect. Should the article mention the dialect?
• The article does not mention The Gates of Heaven. According to it:La porta del cielo:

e ad ottenere dal responsabile del progetto, il sostituto Giovan Battista Montini, che fosse veramente scritturato come regista De Sica

How involved was Montini in the film?

--Error (talk) 12:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Birthtime of Pope Paul VI and his deathtime

Pope Paul VI was born around 10:00 PM (21:00 GMT) on the 26th Sunday of Ordinary Time, 26 September 1897, and died at 9:41 PM (19:41 GMT) on Sunday, a Feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord of 1978. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because the difference of timezones. The standard timezone of Wikipedia is GMT, not including DST.

189.98.244.242 (talk) 13:27, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

First Catholic president

I am not sure why it would be more remarkable that Kennedy was the first Catholic US president that Paul VI had met with, rather than Kennedy being the first Catholic US president, period full stop. The comment in there is disruptively insisting that editors not touch it, yet there was no discussion or consensus here on the talk page. Elizium23 (talk) 11:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, amusingly it was I who wrote the comment in the first place. So I reserve the right to change my mind, 2 years on. Elizium23 (talk) 11:15, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Humanae vitae in intro doesn't match article content

At the moment, in the article introduction we mention:

"His positions on birth control, promulgated famously in the 1968 encyclical Humanae vitae, were often contested, especially in Western Europe and North America. The same opposition emerged in reaction to the political aspects of some of his teaching on.."

Yet in this article, in the section on that encyclical, we say:

"The reaction to the encyclical's continued prohibitions of artificial birth control was very mixed. In Italy, Spain, Portugal and Poland, the encyclical was welcomed. In Latin America, much support developed for the Pope and his encyclical. As World Bank President Robert McNamara declared at the 1968 Annual Meeting of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank Group that countries permitting birth control practices would get preferential access to resources, doctors in La Paz, Bolivia called it insulting that money should be exchanged for the conscience of a Catholic nation. In Colombia, Cardinal archbishop Aníbal Muñoz Duque declared, "If American conditionality undermines Papal teachings, we prefer not to receive one cent"."

So why when giving a summary of the article on this issue, do we only highlight that it was "contested" by the United States and its, in some cases literally militarily occupied proxies in Western Europe and not the support it recieved in Latin America and Catholic Europe? Torchist (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)