Talk:Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Haddad

Haddad is missing from the current article. Attempts to insert reference to Mitrokhin's notes on his KGB file - showing he was working for the Soviets from 1970-78 - are speedily removed by busybodies who have a nostaglic fondness towards the USSR. (In fact the information is corroborated from documents openly obtained from Soviet Archives by Vladimir Bukovsky, so claims that "Mitrokhin is unreliable" - not widely shared anyway - are a blind.)

Wikipedians should allow people to make up their own mind about sources. We should report rather than suppress versions we dislike.

Beware this article. As it stands has some significant weaknesses, and ideologues have taken charge of it. To be useful there needs to be more about the crucial years immediately after 1970, including the split between Habash and Haddad. I will try to add more in time, but I have no doubt it will be removed by these zealous Wiki-policeman.

"bourgeois"

(dont know exactly how this works but i thought i'd post the change i made and explain why) I edited out "bourgeoise" in the part about the PFLP's support base because, even though one might have originated in a bourgeois class, the moment you relinquish your bourgeois priviliges (which you obviously do when you join a marxist-leninist party) you are no longer bourgeois.

Terrorism and Marxism

I have reverted the recent changes since I think "marxist" is not correct and there is no reason to remove "general secretary". More could be added to indicate that this is the leader of the organization, however. - Tεxτurε 00:31, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Please explain to me why terrorists are "marxist"? Arab militants have never shown marxists leanings. I'd categorize them as theologists (if I understand the term correctly) and definitely not marxist. - Tεxτurε 16:58, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Looks like this debate is pretty much over, but just in case it comes back: The PFLP is definitely a historically Marxist-Leninist organiation. The US State Department, for instance, at http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/pflp.htm, "Formerly a part of the PLO, the Marxist-Leninist PFLP was founded by George Habash when it broke away from the Arab Nationalist Movement in 1967. The PFLP does not view the Palestinian struggle as religious, seeing it instead as a broader revolution against Western imperialism."

12 Nov 2005

Arab "militants"- you mean terrorists- are not exclusively driven by Islam, although this is the major driving force, and the PFLP is more Marxist than it is Islamist. It believes in the setting up of a communist state and openly states its support for communist ideals including the deestruction of the Capitalist system and the overhaul of the "corrupt Western Imperial powers" including America. It is true that its major goal is to destroy Israel is based on an Islamic/Arab supremacist ideal that seeks to rid the Middle east of any non-muslim and non Arab presence but it is also based on Marxist ideas, seeing Israel as the tool of "Western Imperialism and Capitalism" according to habash. The PFLP murdered Rehavam Zeevi, they did not simply kill him. The PFLP is a terrorist organisation, it is not a "militant" organisation (which conjures up the image of lefty peaceniks rebelling on campus) rather it is a terrosit organistion that seeks to undermine Israel through a campaign of shootings, bombings, kidnappings and hijacking of planes. It is the classic terrorist organsiation, this is not my point of view this is simply a fact.

I agree that the PFLP are terrorists. They are also militants by definition despite any images they may conjure up. "Terrorists" conjures up a biased POV that Wikipedia tries to avoid. My preference would be to start as it is with the "militant" language and discuss terrorist activites later in the article. In the same way, "killing" is more neutral than "murdered". Wikipedia is a neutral observer no matter how horrible the actions of the article's subjects.

Not all communism is marxist. Can you cite any statements or articles that link this group to marxism? If you have any that discuss their communist leanings that would help as well. This is the page to work out the details before making dramatic wording changes to the article. This way no one is going to revert you out of hand and a consensus can be reached. - Tεxτurε 17:24, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

so whatever israel does is "defending itself" by burning towns and when the Palestinians do anything its terrorism!

In regards to Texture's repeated propagandistic drivel on this page, I must strongly disagree. I have known members of the PFLP and have been studying the Mideast conflict for years now. His notion that "there is no such thing as an Arab Communist because all Arabs are Islamists" is bonkers. Likewise, the PFLP's desire to overthrow the Zionist state is not driven by an Arab/Islamic sense of superiority (such a statement may be valid for Palestinian Islamists) at all!

In fact, it is a principled Leftist anti-imperialist goal. Leftist movements the world over tend to support armed Palestinian struggle and support deadly force against the Zionist state. Surely this is not because they are all Muslims! For Chrissake, most of them are atheists. Simply put, Leftists regard Zionism and its state as a European settler-colonial movement driven by racism and ethnic supremacism. Leftists almost always oppose colonialism, esp Western colonialism, and they almost always support any natives fighting against the colonization of their lands.

and they [i.e world's leftists] almost always support any natives fighting against the colonization of their lands. unfortunately they did not support any natives fighting against colonisation by a communist state...Constanz - Talk 13:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Many PFLP members are Christians, many others are agnostics and atheists - to say they are driven by Islamism is sheer ignorance! Texture's next comments imply that the PFLP is not Marxist at all - that would surely be news to them! At the moment, the group is described as having Marxist roots, though they are still officially a Marxist organization. In re: to Zeevi's killing, that can be seen as the assassination of an enemy leader in wartime.

The PFLP has no desire at all to "cleanse the ME of all non-Arabs", that is simply crazy (that may be true of Islamists)! Clearly, Texture has read few, if any PFLP documents and has understood none of those he may have read. Finally, discussions of whether or not PFLP are "murderers" or "terrorists" bla bla are subjective political views, and have no place whatsoever on this talk page. Take it to Usenet, Texture! And stop clogging up this page with nonsense.

Robert Lindsay 07:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC) talk

It seems that most sources would label the ideology of the PFLP as exclusively Palestinian nationalist, without reference to Arab nationalism. Although it has its roots in the ANM, the PFLP does not have pan-Arab ambitions; the evidence suggests they are focused on Palestinian national matters, and do not claim the Arabs represent a single ethnic group. Source 1: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6390 Source 2: http://archive.adl.org/terrorism/symbols/popular_front_pa1.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.213.130 (talk) 19:35, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

"Militant"

The word "militant" in the intro seems more or less meaningless to me. I'm not sure when it was introduced, probably as a result of somebody putting in "terrorist" and someone else sayiong "oh, we can't say terrorist, let;s say militant"... I would suggets thta it would be better just to say a Palestinain Marxist... political and military organisation". Palmiro | Talk 02:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

sure. it's clear from the article that they're militant. Arre 06:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

What is right - Rabin or Sharon?

In this article is says that the TWA hijacking in August 1969 was because the PFLP believed Ariel Sharon was on the plane. However, in the article about the hijacker, Leila Khaled, it says that it was because they believed Yitzhak Rabin was on the plane. What is right? Ulflarsen 14:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It was Rabin the PFLP was after. Just saw it on a Swedish program that did an interview with Khaled. Ulflarsen 21:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not to sure about that. What makes you so sure that the documentary is right? It wasn't exactly Leila Khaled who said it. Olof Johansson 15:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

PFLP Advocates Throwing Jews Out Of Palestine

I am removing the entire section that states, Depending on the changing attitudes of the organization since then, it is unknown whether Habash intended to include all Jewish residents of Israel, or only those of Middle Eastern/Sephardi descent, as is sometimes stated in PFLP platforms[citation needed], or only Jews of indigenous Palestinian ancestry. Having read quite a few PFLP documents, I am not aware of any official documents that say that any Jews must leave Palestine. Surely some PFLP members feel this way; I have heard them say this.

The only documents I have seen refer to a state of "democratic-minded Arabs and Jews". Clearly, they intend to allow all "democratic-minded" (whatever that means) Jews and Arabs, both, to stay in Palestine. Since I have never seen any PFLP docs stating that any Jews at all need to be thrown out of Palestine, I am going to remove this section entirely until whoever wrote that can supply some documents to back up his dubious claim. Robert Lindsay 07:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC) talk

website

pflp dot net is down, probably for good.

go to www.pflp.ps there is an English link on the right side —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.133.20 (talk) 06:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

An English label, yes. It is not a link at the time of writing. Too bad.2.104.131.44 (talk) 13:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Secular

The PFLP does not follow a secular idology. I'm removing it.62.219.70.253 12:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Source? Malangyar (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"forced into exile"

The phrase "forced into exile" seems very POVish. Can we have the exact quote from the source please, so the material can be formulated in a way that complies with policy? Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Some quotes from Kazziha:

• "By the time the two young men [Habbash and Haddad] graduated from medical school [in Beirut] in 1951 and 1952 respectively, they were unable to return home." (p. 17)
• Habash in an interview with Trevor Jones, United Press: "I was a student from Lydda, the town where I was born. And I have seen with my own eyes teh Israeli army entering the town and killing its inhabitants. I am not exaggerating ... They have killed our people and expelled us from our homes, towns and land. On the way from Lydda to Ramallah I have seen children, young men and old people dying. What can you do after you have seen all this? You cannot but become a revolutionary and fight for the cause." (p. 18)

--Soman 22:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'ts worth adding these quotes to the article, so as to address Jayjg's concern.ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is not the article on Habash, and I think the it should be satisfactory that the quote is availible on the talk. --Soman 22:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Neither of the sources say they were forced from their home. The closest you have is the claim that they were "unable to return home", which is something different. I'll give you a couple more days to come up with a proper source. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you found a source yet? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I waited, but nothing was forthcoming. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PFLP.10th.anv.jpg

Image:PFLP.10th.anv.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

References

Telaviv1 (talk · contribs) has a rather disturbing habit of writing conclusions first (which all have the same pov political tilt), then adding references to back up the assertitions. I reverted his her last edit, and as far as I can see:

• p. 354 in Fascism: Critical Concepts in Political Science, http://books.google.com/books?id=2SlXXndbbCEC, is not availible for preview at google books for me, but when searching I get no results for PFLP, Haddad, Habash or Genoud in the book.
• p. 104, The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism, http://books.google.com/books?id=HGkthBwbNg8C, doesn't back up the claims made by Telaviv1
• p. 101, The Beast Reawakens, has comments on PFLP, but in an unreferenced footnote. Whether Haddad called Genoud a 'sheikh' or not, is rather irrelevant.

--Soman (talk) 11:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

There were no conclusions in the sentence. Seman simply deletes everything I put in to the articles he monitors. At first it irritated me but I now handle it with patience and simply find more evidence. Which is why I keep turning up more information... The fact that mister semen cannot see the references is his problem not mine.

Try searching (in Google somen!) for "genoud critical concepts in political science" look up page 354

http://books.google.co.il/books?id=kne26UnE1wQC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=francois+genoud+pflp&source=bl&ots=EoA0CL27va&sig=fBkdFeORBnC3IX5vatlt2MqrjXE&hl=iw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

for the nazi connection to islamic terrorism look on amazon where you can preview the book. try page 97

As for the beast reawakens its a footnote that runs to two thirds of a page and refers to Le Monde.

finally there is the article in Mother Brown which

See also Gitta Sereny (cf. n. 4 above); also: page 7 of The Observer (28 April 1996); Ben MacIntyre, "Swiss Banker who Worshipped Hitler Commits Suicide," The Times (4 June 1996); David Lee Preston, "Switzerland is Urged to Open its Files on Nazi who Financed Terrorists," Philadelphia Inquirer (19 March 1997): A6:1. There are also three biographies of Genoud (all came out in 1996, the year of his death): Pierre Péan, L'Extrémiste: François Genoud, de Hitler à Carlos; Karl Laske, Le Banquier Noir: François Genoud; Karl Laske & Maria Hoffmann-Dartevelle, Ein Leben zwischen Hitler und Carlos: Francois Genoud.

Once again Somen, the problem is yours. There is plenty of material saying that Genoud financed the PFLP & PLO, sold the PFLP arms, assisted them in their operations during the Lufthansa hijacking (his own words) and supplied lawyers when they got caught.

I will restore the entry but for your benefit will try to word it carefully.

Telaviv1 (talk) 13:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Some comments:

• • Adding 'may have' isn't an improvement, rather it becomes a speculative weasel wording.
  • when reading Fascism: Critical Concept in books.google.com and books.google.co.il, te results becomes slightly differently. However, p. 354 gives no backing to the claim that PFLP "received financial support and purchased arms" from Genoud, it does state that Genoud 'worked closely with radical Palestinian groups, particularily the [PFLP]'.
  • Previously it was claimed that p. 104 in Nazi Connections to Islamic Terrorism was reference for the claims in the article. p. 97 is not included in my preview, please elaborate what it states that is relevant for the article.
  • The 'refers to Le Monde' isn't a reference, it just states that a Le Monde correspondent (not the newspaper, necessarily) had stated on Beast Reawakens just states that Genoud had visited Carlos as his house. Nothing on the PFLP. The footnote marked '*' doesn't have any source.
  • what does the Mother Jones article say?
  • at this point, considering how references have been misrepresented, I'm not willing to assume good faith on the usage of off-line references in this dispute. plese include some URLs, if possible.
  • as per the corruption of my username, it borders a breach of WP:NPA. I will let it go at this point, assuming it was a typing error.

--Soman (talk) 17:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I apolgize for misspelling your name.

I feel that you are deliberately being obtruse and that your criticism is unfair. You have made no effort to correct the text but simply deleted it time and again.

the articles are avaialble and you have made little effort to read them or to provide evidence to the contrary. The sources seem reliable and are widely quoted. You have done no research - you have simply rejected my additions wholesale. Therefore it is fair to say that it is you who is not acting in good faith. What you have turned up is nit picking and does not prove that the general content is untrue.

I will in the next few days provide you with the url's you have requested. until then I am reverting you.

Telaviv1 (talk) 10:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Popular Front

I always thought the translation was The People's Front? -Ori 62.219.148.12 (talk) 13:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

You may find that in some languages the one word can be translated as "people's" or "popular", but in this case I suggest "popular" is sanctified by tradition. PatGallacher (talk) 19:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Entebbe

Do we have clear authority that the PFLP carried out the hijacking which ended in the Entebbe rescue? Most sources describe it as carried out by Wadie Haddad, a rougue element. PatGallacher (talk) 19:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Swiss Air Flight 330

Removed the reference to the bombing of the Swiss Air Flight 330, as the organization which is sometimes claimed to have carried out this was never the PLFP, but the PFLP-GC (yes, there is a significant difference, that is why we have the "not to be confused with..."-tag). 83.227.92.211 (talk) 08:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

removal of source from 'other sources' section

• The Rise and Fall of Palestine’s Socialists (PFLP Soul-Searching) (2014-11-27), Ramzy Baroud, CounterPunch

Ramzy Baroud is a reliable source. His writings are used extensively as sources in many Wikipedia articles in the israeli-palestinian conflict area.

This article by baroud appears suitable for inclusion in the 'other sources' section. Thanks. IjonTichy (talk) 22:32, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

References

2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre

There has been no evidence that the PFLP is responsible for the attacks. What's more, the PFLP has certainly not, in any capacity, officially claimed responsibility for the attack, as claimed. At most, the only current information available is that the perpetrators were merely "associated" with PFLP. Even Israeli authorities say the perpetrators were working alone: NYT reference

Kellyabt94 (talk) 04:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• There is RS coverage of the PFLP claiming responsibility. --Epeefleche (talk) 05:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

And yet there is no citation in your comment. 24.62.63.98 (talk) 16:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Check the refs in the article itself. Epeefleche (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

This contradicts the main article about the attack that says the PFLP denied responsibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peoplesrepublics1917 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

• There is RS coverage indicating this in this article. Please do not delete it again. Epeefleche (talk) 05:54, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

It appears some of the sources say the PFLP did not exactly (or did not un-ambiguously) take responsibility. IjonTichy (talk) 22:42, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Epeefleche - Stop attributing the attack to a group that has not taken responsibility for it. SOURCE - And in English: --Jpoland29 (talk) 21:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Flag

Considering that the PFLP's flag is under copyright it might be prudent to create a substitute for infoboxes like was done for Hezbollah. Charles Essie (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

The flag used in this article is pretty minimalistic compared with the flag the PFLP acctually uses! http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/free.gaza.3.jpg Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 22:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Do we have that flag on Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons? Charles Essie (talk) 19:16, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

"A suicide bombing […] which left no fatalities"

Article: "A suicide bombing in the Jordan Rift Valley on 22 May 2004, which left no fatalities"

I'd say that ought to be "left no further fatalities", as the bomber still kicked the bucket. -- 131.188.6.22 (talk) 13:59, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 March 2020

Add more substantive information on the PFLP's relationship to the Assad government in Syria. Statements from the Front supporting the Assad government and Syrian Army, material support going back to the 60s, Pro-Assad rallies held by the PFLP in Gaza and the West Bank, and so on. 162.17.224.229 (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source to verify it and establish its notability? --MarioGom (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

2021 Elections

The section on the PFLP's electoral participation should probably be updated to note it is planning to participate in the 2021 legislative elections as the "People's Pulse List". It would also be a good idea to mention in that section the conflict that emerged between the Palestinian People's Party and the PFLP during the failed negotiations to form a united left list. Brendanww2 (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Terrorist organization status in Australia

This article states that PFLP is listed as a terrorist organization in Australia. The only supporting source is an israeli news article about the claims of some NGO. I cannot find clear evidence in such article about the claim of PFLP being listed as a terrorist organization in Australia. In fact, the Australian National security department has a listed terrorist organizations page with 25 organizations and none of them is the PFLP. So this claim about Australia should be removed from the article unless a reliable source is found supporting it. MarioGom (talk) 22:45, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

PFLP is listed here, line 698 in the spreadsheet. here is the press release. “WarKosign” 08:09, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! Maybe the reference should be updated to the official source. -MarioGom (talk) 09:33, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

That is a list of organisations and persons subject to economic sanctions, not listed terrorist organisations; that list can be found here and does not contain the PFLP. 167.179.145.42 (talk) 16:07, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Requesting the sentence "The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States, Japan, Canada, Australia and the European Union." edited to remove Australia as it is under financial sanctions and is not a listed terrorist organisation. 167.179.145.42 (talk) 16:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

 Note: Just wanted to point out that while PFLP is indeed not included in the official list of terrorist organizations, the press release from which the excel file listing sanctions can be acquired does state that the reason for the sanctions is due to counter-terrorism. This appears to be a contradiction with the claim that PFLP is not a terrorist organization in Australia's eyes. The claim in question that this requests seeks to remove is whether Australia sees PFLP as a terrorist organization, which it appears to, seeing as the sanctions make reference to terrorist groups, regardless of whether it's "officially listed" on the other page. In my opinion, exclusion from one list does not suffice in backing this removal up, especially given the contradictory sources.  A S U K I T E  21:14, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

A fair point, perhaps some sort of note about the inconsistency in the Australian government's stance would be best? Not very relevant to this change but I would like to hear the government's justification for sanctions and the labeling of the group as Terrorists without officially designating them as such. Is it due to a different burden of proof? Differences between different departments in stance? Other internal politics? 167.179.145.42 (talk) 10:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I wanted to be sure I read into this correctly, so I went and looked at the "consolidated list" from the excel file in the second link above. The entry for PFLP doesn't specifically use the word "terrorist". I won't quote it here to avoid further controversy, but I wanted to add that at this point I could see this going either way. We might just need a fair amount of consensus for this change, and I don't want to try and sway anybody on the subject. A S U K I T E  00:54, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Run n Fly (talk) 15:57, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2021

The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States, Japan, Canada, Australia and the European Union. 70.19.59.213 (talk) 22:03, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

References

That detail is already mentioned in the second paragraph of the article. The last sentence of the second paragraph reads: "The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States, Japan, Canada, Australia and the European Union." CentreLeftRight ✉ 23:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

PKK and ASALA relations

The page says that they built ties with the PKK, which is true, but it is missing a source. It addition, it is missing on their ties with ASALA. Here is my source: "On April 8, 1980, Habash’s PFLP organized a press conference for ASALA and the Kurdistan Worker’s Party (PKK) at a hideout in the ancient Casbah of Sidon, Lebanon. The 14 hooded ASALA representatives, protected by Palestinians, “emphasized their links with Marxist Palestinian formations.”" I suggest you add this source for the part at the start talking about their ties to other leftist groups and add ASALA to that list. Thanks --Serok Ayris (talk) 15:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

what does support for the armed wings mean ?

The PFLP's armed wing in the West Bank and Gaza, the Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades, draws much of its support from student organizations in universities like Al-Quds University (eastern Jerusalem), Bir Zeit University (Ramallah area), An-Najah National University (Nablus), and the Arab American University.

does it mean political support for the armed wing (unlike supporting the movement itself ?) or providing actual aid to the wing armed ?

2A00:A040:196:1A4:82CA:9B9D:7530:BF2F (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, it has a citation needed tag, so actually, probably none of the above. It's probably a load of unverifiable bollocks. In fact, I think I'll be removing that right here and now. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:32, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dovidroth: The content you restored to the lede does not exist in the body; you either expand it enough for it to be proportionately represented in the lede in this way (at least 35%), or you revert yourself. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)