Talk:Porchetta

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I don't want to just edit this article without corroboration, but I think this stub is fine on reporting how porchetta is distributed but off the mark on describing the dish itself. First, porchetta is usually not a whole roasted pig, but a boned, gutted pig (often a piglet or multiple piglets), stuffed, rolled with the skin and fat largely on the outside, spitted, and roasted that way. The innards are not traditionally part of porchetta, the head is rarely included, and most makers are very specific about the cuts and the layering that they want in the finished roast. Also, porchetta is not traditionally spicy at all, and this comment is unique to the English page (the Italian page describes the flavors without giving any suggestion of piquancy). I haven't actually met spicy porchetta, although surely someone makes it -- and it sounds good! Porchetta is generally heavily salted, the outside includes crisped skin, and the meat is often flavorful from the presence of herbs in the stuffing, often including wild fennel. Porchetta on a roll (in panini) is popular, but a lot of people eat it as a meat course as part of meal, just like salumi or roast chicken. This, too, is covered well on the Italian page but absent from the page in English. The links to barbecue are apt, because porchetta has a lot in common with pulled pork, Cantonese barbecued pork, and other porcine outdoor dishes. Porchetta's standout quality, at least in Lazio, is the reliance on green herbs for much of the flavor. 151.54.240.195 (talk) 08:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC) == Proposed Changes == Propose to remove the specific commercial references to particular establishments that might serve this dish. Wikipedia content should not be a platform for advertising (except perhaps for the occasional fund drive). 75.88.135.240 (talk) 04:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Last edited at 04:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 03:15, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Porchetta

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/recipes/0/nicoise-style-porchetta-recipe/ Here you have a link in English, important to note that the nicoise version is slightly different. Also look here: https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Thematiques/patrimoine-culturel-immateriel/Le-Patrimoine-culturel-immateriel/l-inventaire-national-du-patrimoine-culturel-immateriel The porchetta nicoise is registered officialy as a typical product of Nice. Hope it helps 81.185.168.237 (talk) 10:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a version, and is already covered extensively here; it's a version. The original porchetta is Italian; do you understand? JacktheBrown (talk) 10:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You do not have to talk like that and be aggressive. You have deleted sources that show that the dish is also from a part of southern France. Is it impossible for you to consider that one dish can have been invented in a region that include two countries ? Like couscous is from Algeria and Marocco for example 81.185.168.237 (talk) 10:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't aggressive, you were aggressive by continuing to disregard my advice to reach consensus first; where was I aggressive? You imposed your version without reaching consensus, one of the fundamental rules of Wikipedia. JacktheBrown (talk) 10:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not my version, it was already here, with references and you came to delete it. 81.185.168.237 (talk) 10:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

They were there because you added them without reaching a consensus (the IPs are all yours, I'm not stupid). JacktheBrown (talk) 10:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I was there before but the original information was not from me. 81.185.168.237 (talk) 10:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Answer my question, is it impossible for you to consider that one dish can have been invented in a region that include two countries ? Like couscous is from Algeria and Marocco for example. 81.185.168.237 (talk) 10:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown Can you answer here? I am trying to understand your view 81.185.168.237 (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

After taking me to ANI, I want nothing more to do with you. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You first threatened to block me and you have experience here, what should I do? I am trying to defend myself. I would prefer a respectful conversation. 81.185.168.237 (talk) 11:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I can remove the ANI if you want, sorry. 81.185.168.237 (talk) 11:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

obviously. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Please, don't correct your messages if I have already answered them. I said you were talking aggresively because of some expressions you used and because you wrote in capital letters. Now you removed this so it seems I am saying that for nothing. 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

So, can we talk about the article? Why are you 100% sure that the dish can not be from Nice and Italy at the same time? Considering Nice and Piedmont if I remember correctly were part of the same kingdom in the past. 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It's official, discussion over: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=1230907614. I haven't reported you anywhere. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

you reported me here first, Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Increase - Wikipedia 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I didn't report you, I requested the protection of the page; it's very different. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

What is the difference for me if you will protect it in order to put your version? 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Try to remove this one, you will see the same I imagine 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't do it by regulation, because a user replied. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

yes same for me, but I said that I withdraw my complaint, check my last edition 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Withdraw ANI. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Done 81.185.174.53 (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

So, can we talk about the article? Why are you 100% sure that the dish can not be from Nice and Italy at the same time? Considering Nice and Piedmont if I remember correctly were part of the same kingdom in the past 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

First remove both (incorrect) reports. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I tried to undo because I wanted to delete but it doesn't let me saying that some editions were done after so i can not undo it. 81.185.162.120 (talk) 11:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

New reference

I included a new reference stating that the dish is both italian and french:

https://en.gastronomiac.com/cpt_produits_ingre/porchetta/ 81.185.167.145 (talk) 12:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You've been blocked because, despite being asked to stop and discuss repeatedly, you continued to change the article back to include your edits. Just to be clear; the way things usually work on Wikipedia is that the onus is on the person wanting to change the article. It is up to them to convince other editors that what they are proposing improves the article, before changing the article again. What you've been attempting to do is change the article, repeatedly over others, and then discuss what you've already done. That's not how it works.

In regards to the origin of Porchetta, you need to draw a distinction between "a tradition" and "originates". Just because there is a tradition somewhere does not mean that that's where it originates. Both the "traditions" and origins can be discussed, suitably sourced, in the article. But generally the lead should be focused on the origins and locations that the food is most identified with. Most reliable sources seem to think it is an Italian. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Dear @Escape Orbit thank you for your feedback.

If you look at the history of the page you will see that I was the one restoring the original version, @JackkBrown deleted the part about France for no reason. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Porchetta&oldid=1218557819

We have many sources saying that the dish originated in Nice and other saying it is from Italy, actually a region in between France and Italy was in the past part of the same state (duchy of Savoy), so it makes sense to have dishes from both sides of the border. In the case of porchetta we can not tell a specific point of origin but we know it is typical in the ancient territory of Savoy more or less and seeing the references I don't understand why we should remove this part.

For the infobox I understand your point but the sentence in the introduction was just saying it is typical in both countries and saying the name in French, why should this be removed? 81.185.168.74 (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I can also see in the history that the "original version" was created by this edit in October 2023, very possibly by yourself. So this content has been disputed since then. All the more reason to discuss the matter instead of imagining that edit warring is going to provide a satisfactory solution.

You may have a point, but urge you to find consensus on suitable, and well sourced, wording.

Also, be aware that continuing to edit while jumping between IP numbers, after you have already been blocked, will get you blocked again, simply for block evasion. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Escape Orbit, I will discuss more in the talk page. 81.185.160.243 (talk) 13:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown I would like to understand what you don't like in the version of the introduction that I was defending.

You asked me to provide you with references in English and I did:

https://en.gastronomiac.com/cpt_produits_ingre/porchetta

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/recipes/0/nicoise-style-porchetta-recipe/

The dish is clearly part of the tradition of Alpes-maritimes since centuries and that's why it is registered there as a traditional product (see https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Thematiques/patrimoine-culturel-immateriel/Le-Patrimoine-culturel-immateriel/l-inventaire-national-du-patrimoine-culturel-immateriel)

For the infobox, we could still discuss what to put as origin, but I don't understand why you removed the introduction sentence just saying the name in French and that it is a dish found in Alpes-maritimes. 81.185.160.243 (talk) 13:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to argue about this anymore. Read carefully the comments posted by Escape Orbit, which explain everything very clearly. JacktheBrown (talk) 08:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I understood the point about the origin explained by @Escape Orbit. But my question is about the sentence you removed in introduction. the sentence was not talking about origin but only specifying that the dish is also part of the culinary tradition of Alpes-Maritimes (Porchetta (Italian: [porˈketta]) or porquette (in France) is a savory, fatty, and moist boneless pork roast of Italian culinary tradition and the French region of Alpes-Maritimes).

Could we include this sentence again ? 81.185.175.172 (talk) 12:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Not for now, let's discuss it later. Thank you. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Why? I can include it myself if you agree. I sent you several references already. I will not change the infobox while you don't agree. 81.185.170.41 (talk) 15:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree, but you could change my mind in the future; for now I don't agree with anything you wrote. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok, it would be great to have some constructive feedback from your side. 81.185.170.167 (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I added the mention that the dish exists in Alpes-maritimes, which is a fact well supported by the references. I wait for your opinion regarding the place of origin. 81.185.170.167 (talk) 11:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrownPlease answer here and explain why you revert everything. I only added the information that was supported by references. 81.185.171.154 (talk) 13:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

According to Escape Orbit, according to me and according, certainly, to the majority of people, "In regards to the origin of Porchetta, you need to draw a distinction between "a tradition" and "originates". Just because there is a tradition somewhere does not mean that that's where it originates. Both the "traditions" and origins can be discussed, suitably sourced, in the article. But generally the lead should be focused on the origins and locations that the food is most identified with. Most reliable sources seem to think it is an Italian." JacktheBrown (talk) 15:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @JackkBrown, yes I understand that but if you see my last edits I didn't change the place of origin. But the dish is also a speciality of Alpes-Maritimes, it is referenced. 81.185.175.198 (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

We can create a paragraph about this (if it isn't already present), but the first lines refer to the place of origin. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually we don't know a lot about its origin, we just know that the dish is typical in Northern Italy and Alpes-maritimes. It seems that it existed in the old territory of Savoy, Alpes-Maritimes and parts of Italy were in the same territory at that time. That's why I think it does not make sense to talk about countries as the borders are rather modern between Alpes-maritimes and this part of Italy. But it also doesn't make sense to ignore Alpes-maritimes from the History of the dish. It is known since middle ages there. 81.185.175.198 (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you discuss without creating edit wars? I don't want you to get blocked, but you're at great risk of a second block of range. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, sorry I didn't mean to engage in edit warring, I rephrased the sentence and thought you would agree with the change. I am open to discussion about this. 81.185.175.198 (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I think we need more users in this discussion. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Why not but can you explain what you didn't like in my last edit?

Without changing "place of origin", it would make sense to say that it is a typical dish also in Alpes-Maritimes, don't you think?

It is even registered there as intangible cultural heritage, you removed this part in the paragraph named "France" and I don't understand why. 81.185.175.198 (talk) 16:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Because it isn't the right place: it's right to add all these things in this paragraph: In France (here you can add what you want to add, I will check). JacktheBrown (talk) 16:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

But it has to be mentioned in the introduction that the dish exist in a region outside Italy, otherwise the article is not consistent.

I am from Nice, porchetta is a old tradition here made in all the villages, we love Italy and were part of Savoy together with North Italy, we shouldn't be divided because of modern conceptions of nationalism. 81.185.175.198 (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll never undo your changes if you don't get out of this paragraph. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

In summary, and I won't add anything else: for the In France paragraph I'll let you manage it as you like, obviously you'll have to add true things; for the rest you can't do anything before reaching a consensus (don't be crafty, please, I trust you; in any case, I'm like an eagle, I see almost everything). Thank you and have a good day. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok @JackkBrown but you never really replied.

I rephrased the introduction sentence, saying the dish is found in Italy and one part of France, which is just a fact and has references. Why don't you agree on this change? 81.185.175.198 (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)