Talk:Portola, California

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Pronounation of "Portola" is falsenews

The so-called intro, some misinformed editor decided that "The name is generally mispronounced in an anglicized way, with stress on the middle syllable, thus ignoring the accent mark in its namesake's surname." As a native of Portola, I find this characterization inaccurate, annoying, and a slight insult.

First the assumption that the town was actually named for the explorer and second in failing to realize that in applying the moniker "Portola" the "accent mark" was not accepted as part of the new name (yes new name, Portola had three previous names--it seems that somewhere in the editing of the article the information about the previous names has been lost as well as the real story of how Portola obtained its current name).

When time permits, and I have my references available to apply, I will return and correct this error and omissions.

Osomite (talk) 17:08, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Notable People - "Jack Trout" is not notable - he is advertising his fishing guide business

I removed "Jack Trout" as a Notable Person associated with Portola California because he isn't. He is only notable in his own mind.

It is doubtful that "Jack Trout" is even his real name--it is a nom de guerre that this person utilizes to engage in his commercial enterprise of being a fishing guide and a nom de plume for the several articles he has had published. He offers himself as an authentic character in the Plumas County area, but his effort is typically to promote himself as a fishing guide.

Basically the entry was an advertisement for his fish guide endeavors (https://www.jacktrout.com/). His creating this entry about himself is an instance of Conflict of interest (COI) editing. I would image if he could, he would create a Wikipedia article about himself as he thinks he is so interesting. But since he could not, he created his own "notable person" entry. Tsk Tsk.

The entry was created by a single-purpose account by editor "JackTroutShasta" to create his own "notable person" entry. Notably, "JackTroutShasta" is no longer a wikipedia editor.

As an observation, the several other Portola Notable People aren't particularly notable and their entry should be reviewed for appropriateness.

Osomite (talk) 22:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Portola, Portolá?

@Cristiano Tomás: your edits on the Portola, California article are well-meant, but they are not appropriately relevant to the town and its historical context.

I reverted your edit that provided the Spanish pronunciation of "Portola" with the following comment:

The Spanish pronunciation of the town name "Portola" is irrelevant. The only pronunciation that applies is the one that is created from the dialect predominant in the Northeast California region.

To be more clear, the Spanish pronunciation of the town name "Portola" is irrelevant. The only pronunciation that applies is the one that is created from the dialect predominant in the Northeast California region. Nobody has ever used the Spanish pronunciation--not even on the day the area was originally named Portola by Virgil Gay Bogue, chief engineer of the Western Pacific Railroad, 1909. To insert the Spanish pronunciation only creates confusion about the actual pronunciation.

You disagreed and reverted my edit with the following comment:

... that's not a pronunciation, it's a spelling. all it does is illustrate the Spanish etymological origin of

Spelling "Portola" as "Portolá" lacks any historical relevance. What you have added is not to the point of the article about Portola. Nobody has ever pronounced nor spelled the town name as to how Gaspar de Portolá's name is pronounced and spelled. It creates unnecessary confusion.

You mention you are providing "etymology". Etymology is the study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history. Your edit is not about etymology. You added your sentence without any explanation or reference. Doing that isn't helpful. It is confusing and not at all suitable for the writing of a Wikipedia encyclopedia article.

More correctly, the issue involved about Portola's name is "Toponymy" which is the study of place names.

For a long time, I have intended to add a Toponymy section for Portola. The naming of Portola wasn't just a single event of naming. Portola has had several names before arriving finally at Portola.

I note that last December you added a picture of Gaspar de Portolá in the "Geography and climate" section. I winced when I saw that. Just dropping in a picture of Gaspar into that section was again not particularly relevant. I think it would be best to remove it as it applies to neither geography nor climate. It is good to add relevant information but just to add tangential information indiscriminately is not good. I intend to remove Gaspar's picture.

So, I propose that a section about Portola's toponymy should be created where the information you have added can be placed and the entire story of Portola's naming can be presented and how indirectly Portolá's bastardized name pronunciation occurred.

Unless you have a better plan, I am reverting your edit again. I would welcome it later to be included in the yet unwritten Toponymy section. Unless you have some particular subject matter expertise concerning Portola that overrides this logic (I humbly submit that I do have "Portola subject matter expertise"), please, don't edit war this.

Osomite ^hablemos 22:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, you're claiming that it's pronounced both por-TOH-lə and like "power-tall-ah", while claiming that they're the same. I suspect that you aren't familiar with the key, but if you are adding a second pronunciation, you need to provide a source. — kwami (talk) 02:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I think that your reclama and knowledge about this issue would be better placed on the Portola talk page rather than hiding it on my obscure talk page. Inquiring minds will want to know.

I see from your user page that you have knowledge about how words are pronounced.

Your last edit on the Portola article you deleted my pronunciation of "pour|toll|'|ɑh". It has been in the article for quite some time. Wikipedia guidance tells that long-time-standing edits should not be changed without some talk page discussion and agreement first. Why didn't you just leave it alone?

I am puzzled, "power-tall-ah"? Where did that come from? Do you think that my "pour" comes out as "power"; "ur" sounds like "wer"? Seriously. Please explain how/where you came by that. Sounds made up for argument's sake to me.

I guess that I don't understand the obscure rule about creating that dialectical pronunciation of a place name. Where in the wide wide world of Wikipedia guidance is that explained? You say that a "reference" to the local dialectic pronunciation is required. Where exactly in the literature of the world would one find that reference? Surely you jest. I laugh that you think youtube is a reliable source. What do you want me to do, create a youtube titled "This is how you pronounce the name of the small rural town of Portola, California" and say the word Portola correctly pronounced many many times, and maybe, for no particular reason, read the Wikipedia article. Do you see how silly that idea is? And, by the way, Wikipedia does not consider youtube to be a reliable source.

I see that in your most recent edit you deleted the native area pronunciation (that I rendered to the best of my ability) of "pour|toll|'|ɑh"; or should I have presented it as "pourtollah"? I know this is the sound of how the folks in the area speak the town's name. I know because I live there. I hear it spoken that way almost every day. Why is it that you disagree about something you have never heard?

I don't quite understand how you rendered the "respelled" pronunciation as "por|TOH|lə". Where did you hear that pronunciation? I am particularly curious about the last syllable "lə"? You think that "la" has an unexpected vowel sound so you represent it with the schwa symbol? So if it is an unexpected vowel sound, what is is the actual sound?

In my local knowledge, the last syllable of "Portola" sounds distinctly like "ah". The last syllable consists of just the "a"; the "l" is spoken in the second syllable with the "to" and that sounds like "toll". Yes, I know, the hill folk of the eastern lost sierras speak funny. When you use "por" as the pronunciation of the first syllable, does it sound like "pour"?

Please tell me how you have expert knowledge about the pronunciation of the name of the village hamlet Portola? (I remember on the Today show in June 1960, when David Garraway mentioned that "the village hamlet of Portola (and he actually pronounced it as a Portolian would expect) is being threatened by forest fire". That was all he said--I heard it and I was gobsmacked that the news of the day from New York was about such an isolated place. So, every now and then, I like to use Dave's description of my town--village hamlet; however, it isn't hamlet-like.)

In one of your edit summaries, (or perhaps it was the edit you made on my talk page and then subsequently deleted--tsk, tsk. That was bad editor manners. If I want something on my talk page deleted, I will delete it) you wanted to "hear" the pronunciation. If you need to "hear" Portola spoken how do you know that the "funny" and unreadable, at least to me, International Phonetic Alphabet rendered pronunciation of (/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/) that has been in the article for quite some time, is correct? If you don't know how it sounds, how can you vouch for that pronunciation? Perhaps "(/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/)" should be deleted.

As background concerning the pronunciation of Portola and the reason for my involvement, an editor arrogantly assumed that the word was actually pronounced according to the Spanish language like the name of the explorer Gaspar de Portolá y Rovira for whom the town is indirectly named--that is a story in itself that I will include in the article after I have the necessary references that I hope to find in the Bancroft Library at Cal. So to correct that incorrect attribution, I edited and provided the native dialectic sound for the name and explained on the Portola talk page about the how and why of the edit.

I just realized that there is a district in San Francisco named "Portola". It is pronounced "close" to the lost sierra dialect, but not exactly. That pronunciation would be acceptable, but it would not be exact.

Osomite 🐻 (hablemos) 05:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Evidence. You need evidence. Unsourced claims can be deleted at any time, no matter how long they've been there. Especially when they're obviously wrong -- even you admit that the pronunciation you gave is ridiculous. And since it's clear that you don't know how to write the pronunciation in either IPA or wikipedia respelling, you need some other way to convey what the pronunciation is.

For instance, you could give a word that has the same initial syllable as 'Portola', and another than rhymes with it in your pronunciation. Or maybe three words, for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd syllables, if you can't find a word that rhymes with it.

And yes, YouTube would be fine. If you can find an interview with the local police chief or school principal or librarian, where they say the name, that would be fine. Or I suppose I could call someone in town and ask them.

According to your edit, the first syllable sounds like "power". I assume that's because you didn't bother to check the pronunciation key that defines what the letters mean. The second sounds like "tall", again probably because you didn't bother to use the system that you claimed to. I can't tell if the stress is on the 2nd syllable or the last. If on the last, and assuming that the first syllable has an "or" sound rather than an "our" sound, then according to you "Portola" is pronounced "Port Alláh". If that's not correct, you need to find a better way of communicating what you mean. — kwami (talk) 05:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I appreciate your commenting about the pronunciation. It would have been polite of you to ping me so I would know you are still involved.

I clearly don't understand your understanding about pronunciation. About you stating that my pronunciation is "obviously wrong", how do you know this? Please explain this knowledge.

I maintain that Portola is pronounced "pour-toll-ah". About the "(/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/)", I can't read/pronounce it. That bit of word noise was submitted by someone else, and since I didn't understand it, I took it on faith that "(/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/)" was a "good pronuciation" even though I didn't know what sound it made. I see that that was a stupid assumption to make. I have no idea what those "letters and marks" sound like. I did know how Portola sounds (again I stand by "pour-toll-ah"). It seems that the construction of "(/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/)" needs to be revisited.

About youtube. Wikipedia does not consider that a reliable source. Besides, where would I find those imaginary interviews?

About demanding a reference for my pronunciation, where do you find your evidence? I would really be interested to see some reference/evidence/proofs that you have included with your pronunciation edits in Wikipedia. Please provide one.

Since you don't value my knowledge, interacting with you is going nowhere.

However, as you suggested above, I need to provide some rhyming words. I reiterate that Portola is pronounced as follows. The first syllable is "pour" (like I pour water into the bowl), the second syllable is "toll" (like paying a toll to pass over a bridge) and the third syllable is "ah" (a sound the doctor asks you to make when he wants to look down your throat). Portola sounds like pour-toll-ah. Can't you work with that?

If this is not sufficient to work with to translate my feeble effort into official pronunciation, as you suggested, you should probably call the City Clerk at the Portola City Hall at (530) 832-6801 during business hours and hear how they pronounce Portola. You could also call the Portola Library at (530) 832-4241. You consider these to be "secondary" sources. I still wonder how their pronunciations of Portola would be any more creditable than my pronunciation. Could you explain your logic about this? Your argument about this is a bit cloudy.

Note: In this post, I did not include any humor. Did you read this far or did you stop above for some other reason?

Osomite 🐻 (hablemos) 10:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The following has been moved from Osomite's talk page to this, the Portola talk page, in order to keep all of the discussion in one place.

I stopped reading your response when it became clear that you weren't being serious. We just can't take your word about something. You need evidence. And yes, if you have, say, the local news station pronouncing "Portola", or an interview with the police chief, that would probably be acceptable evidence for most people. — kwami (talk) 05:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: You stopped reading my response? How rude. I read your responses without stopping. It is petty of you to be criticizing my writing style.

Please note that I pointed out to you that further comment on this issue should appropriately be done on the Portola talk page. But you are ignoring my reasonable and logical request. Why is that?

I am requesting, make that demanding, that you no longer post on my talk page. I am within my rights to bar from positing here--there's guidance about this somewhere in the Wikipedia monolith but I am not going to find it for you.

I would like to point out that you need to add edit summaries when you post. Empty edit summaries are not satisfactory

You are discounting my position because you don't consider it to be serious. That's pretty arrogant. Don't you have a sense of humor? Is the world of posting pronunciations always deadly serious? If so, that is so sad.

There is content in my post which is quite relevant and on point, but you are ignoring it. I guess that is the easy way out for you, just disregard any argument that challenges your position. It seems you quit because you have nothing to support your position--all you are doing is citing a rule you have made-up and demanding evidence. When you post a new or revised pronunciation, where do you find your reference (aka evidence)? You clearly have no expert knowledge of the correct pronunciation of the word Portola, yet you refuse to address my position by falsely claiming superior knowledge and intelligence concerning the pronunciation of words. OMG!

Addressing your demanded acceptable proofs, there is no local radio station in the county--it is really rural and damn near dirt poor. And about "an interview" with the Chief of Police", there is no Chief of Police. The law enforcement is the Sheriff of Plumas County located in the county seat. In any case, where would this interview have taken place where the word "Portola" would be correctly pronounced? Were you anticipating that a recording of a radio station there would be available? Your thinking is a bit ivory tower, what planet are you living on?

As a Wikipedia editor aren't you supposed to honor the Wikipedia's Five Pillars? Consider the pillar that directs that "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility". This includes a basic tenant of seeking consensus and avoiding edit wars. And, notice the 5th pillar--Wikipedia has no firm rules.

I asked questions, and you are ignoring them. You demand evidence but you will not attempt any collegial effort or cooperation. What rule can you site that requires that I must render to you evidence about the pronunciation of the word "Portola"?

And once again, I will also add this post to the Portola talk page.

I hope you have read this far and not stopped earlier due to your opinion of my writing style. If you refuse to engage by posting on the Portola talk page, I will consider that you have surrendered the discussion.

Osomite 🐻 (hablemos) 09:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:TLDR. Present evidence or be ignored. You still haven't provided a usable pronunciation, unless you really are saying it's "Port Allah". And if you can't read dictionary pronunciation conventions, perhaps you should learn? — kwami (talk) 21:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Portola is pronounced as "pour" + "toll" + "ah" not the vuglar Spanish pronunciation of "Port Allah"

@Kwamikagami: SPOILER ALERT - I found a youtube video that is "evidence". "Present evidence or be ignored" My god, that sounds like a silly line out of a Monty Python skit (NO ONE SHALL PASS). Sadly due to your WP:TLDR reading difficulty, this post is also probably too long to allow you to maintain your concentration. So since you won't read it, just skip down to the last sentence, read it, decide what you are willing to do, and let's leave it at that. SPOILER ALERT - I found a youtube video that is "evidence".

SPOILER ALERT - I found a youtube video that is "evidence"; however, sadly you probably won't be able to concentrate long enough to read far enough in my post to see what it is. WP:TLDR is a pretty poor excuse for not reading my post. "Port Allah"? Really? You are being obstinate. How do you get "Port Allah" out of "pour" + "toll" + "ah"? Can't you read three simple one-syllable words together to obtain the sound of Portola? Maybe you don't have any particular expertise in devising or understanding pronunciations.

If I wasn't dyslexic maybe I could learn how those letter salads are pronounced. I've tried, but I can't. It was disrespectful of you to talk down to me like that. Have you no shame?

WP:TLDR? Again you refuse to engage and read my post. How impudent. Aren't you even interested in this issue? What is your problem? Do you just want to be churlish and act like a child? Jesus, grow up.

You demand, "Present evidence or be ignored". As an editor, you are not very accepting or friendly. SPOILER ALERT - I found a youtube video that is "evidence".

What astonishes me is that I have asked several questions that if you were willing to work with me you would have answered. What's your problem with sharing?

And, again, you didn't ping me when you posted. That was rude. I guess if I didn't realize that you had posted with your arrogant warning of "Present evidence or be ignored" you would have your undeserved vindication.

And, again, you failed to create any Edit Summary. What's up with that? Are you too good to follow simple rules and have a little courtesy?

What is your problem with actually trying to work with other editors and trying to improve Wikipedia content? You are acting petulant and supercilious. Are you unable to act in any collegial manner like proper editors are supposed to do?

I really can't understand why you can't read the three words "pour", "toll", and "ah" as three syllables to create the sound of the word Portola. Why can't you comprehend those simple words? You tell me that those three words sound like "Port Allah". Seriously? How do you get "port" and "allah" out of "pour" + "toll" + "ah"? What is wrong with your comprehension? You are not even trying to understand. I gave, to the best of my ability, word sounds for each syllable. And you come back with a two-syllable word (or is Allah two syllables?) that is nonsense. Can't you read?

Are you doing this just to be intransigent and because you like to annoy and irritate people? Do you get off on doing that? You must love being a pronunciation gatekeeper who alone holds the answers.

It is editors that behave like you that make me think participating in Wikipedia is futile--it sure isn't fun dealing with editors like you.

At some point in your previous posts, you said that I should find a youtube video where the word "Portola" is spoken. I have found one. Its title is "Portola California" and here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_qQVTEn5tU

At 3:05 into the video, the word "Portola" is spoken and that pronunciation is clear and you should be able to hear it. It is close enough to the dialect of the area. I would appreciate it if you would be willing to listen to it and do whatever you need to do to fix the article. And again the pronunciation at the beginning of the article of "(/pɔːrˈtoʊlə/)" needs to be examined, it is likely that it is not correct. Please make sure it sounds like what the man in the video says. So at this point, I am no longer interested in enduring your arrogant, petulant, supercilious, intransigent attitude. I'm out of here.

If you are unwilling or unable to cooperate, the solution to this back-and-forth is just to delete all of the current pronunciations entirely (if you won't do it, I will). That would be a better service to the article and the town of Portola than leaving the unverified and incorrect pronunciation there to confuse. If you want to help, please read the two paragraphs above.

Osomite 🐻 (hablemos) 09:11, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Does it really take you 13 paragraphs to say "here's the link"?

Anyway, at 3m05 in the video, the narrator says "por-TOH-lə", just like all the videos I was able to find. So, case closed: the current transcription is correct.

Here's a hint for future discussion, if you wish to get anything accomplished: use your words to say what you need to say. Rants and diatribes are not going to get you any respect; on the contrary, people are likely to conclude that you're a troll and ignore you. Certainly I didn't read anything you wrote above apart from scanning it to see if you'd provided a link. — kwami (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)