Talk:Portuguese cuisine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comment

Maybe someone better informed than myself can take a look at this. The cuisine of the country does not consist of linguiça seasoned with herbs (the national dish is bacalhau, or so people say), and it is a poor man's cuisine that aims to make edible, saturating dishes at a cheap price. This is how the article should start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.193.136.193 (talk) 02:04, 25 December 2004 (UTC)

This comment is rather superficial. It also shows the lack of knowledge on Portugal cuisine. There is much more than linguiça or bacalhau. The comment "saturating dishes at a cheap price" is pointless and shows ignorance.

ICE77 (talk) 19:02, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

1001 ways to cook bacalhau

About bacalhau, is it worth to mention that there is a portuguese proverb that says that the portuguese have 1001 ways of cook it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.218.167 (talk) 17:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi. When you make a comment it is better if you use the "+" next to where it says "edit this page" rather than editing the page itself. I've done the same to reply to you only. As for your comment, no the cuisine does not consist of linguica, it consists of linguica and many other things. Just because portugal is known in popular culture for bacalhau doesn't make portuguese food all about bacalhau. some of that is just stories for the tourists. Sure it is a part of the culture but it is not all about bacalhau. That is just, like I said, one of those kinds of selling points and generalizations that are "fed" (no pun intended) to tourists. In my family not a single year goes by that linguica/chourica/alheiras/presunto, etc., are not made and smoked and I've seen many other families do the same. Those who don't do it pay other families to do it or by them from them later. So yes it is very much an aspect of the cuisine as well as many other countless things that are sometimes not given much attention, like rice and beans, for example, which is popularly associated with south america by many in my experience but actually originates from portugal, spain and probably even southern france if i am not mistaken. Okay ive rambled on enough but no you can't say that linguica is not part of the cuiine because it is. As far as mentioning the 1001 weays to cook it (actually, i thought it was suppsed to be 365 ways once for every day of the year, but im not sure anymore) i dont see the harm in that being mentioned. I've even seen many cookbooks like that with 365 recipes for it. Paelha is another, and it is mostly associated with spain, and the spaniards and the portuguese argue as to who it belongs to, but it probably is just iberian and therefore belongs to both. Maybe that is worth a mention also, at least about the fact that it is argued. be well... Lusitano Transmontano 03:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

yes, the PT do claim 1001/365 ways of making the bacalhau, but the way to reach this number is in most cases just changing one or two ingredients apart from the dry fish. At least in the north paella is in many cases called "arroz valenciana". Benkeboy (talk) 14:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

About the 1001 ways to cook codfish, it is worth mentioning that the expression "1001 ways" in Portuguese is just an emphatic way to say that there are too many ways, almost as many as one wants. It shouldn't be taken literally — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.137.168.16 (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting on this. I heard of the 1001 way to cook bacalhau and I always wondered if there was actually a book that listed the recipes.

ICE77 (talk) 19:02, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Bacalhau

By the way. For those who do not speak english, bacalhau can be translated to Cod Fish. Cod Fish is mostly used in the dried and salted form in Portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.240.16 (talk) 01:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In PT bacalhau always means the dried cod fish, if they talk about (non-dried) cod fish they specifically add the term "fresca", so "bacalhau fresca". Benkeboy (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

In fact, "bacalhau fresco". It's masculine. :) The Ogre (talk) 14:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The Ogre, thank you for intervening. This could have led to the same warping to the word (as it happened to lasagne).

ICE77 (talk) 19:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

List of Portuguese delicacies

Just created a new section called "List of Portuguese delicacies". It should be expanded and explained. Will work on it. Fell free to join in! The Ogre 10:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There should also be a list of the "doces conventuais", the PT pastry. Since it is often said each town and village has their own speciality it should become a very long list. Benkeboy (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Túbaros

"Túbaros - testicles of MALE animals." I don't really think you need to say from "males", or even from animals. It would be more interesting to briefly mention how they are cooked. Also, it was not following the alphabetical order, so I moved it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.203.28 (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Influence

While there is undoubted Jewish influence on Portugal's history, I'd like to see some citations on the influences on food. Considering that the vast majority of foods contain pork, seafood and/or blood, I imagine the influence is small. Any comments?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.162.77.10 (talk) 17:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you a RACIST? Just kidding, but this is what I expect to hear if anyone tried to remove those references (mainly devoid of any real evidence, consisting of "maybe", "it could be", etc). As an example the article contains *in the article header* references to "Arab" and "Moor" influences, although apparently they aren't to be seen in the rest of the article (and are absent in the Spanish cuisine article). Someone with time to battle this should do something, as in other topics regarding this I don't think they will be successful since it goes against the groupthink that somehow everything from the Pirenees down has to have some kind of semitic influence.--89.180.48.244 (talk) 17:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

If you don't give evidence for saying that something is a Jewish influence, there's no need of evidence to counter you.Anton Olivenbaum (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Actualy two of the most intriguing food specimens in portuguese cuisine are actualy jewish ... alheira is a non-meat but meat-like dish of northern portugal wich consists of a bred sausache that jewish people used to put on their kitchens and resembled an oily meat chorizo so the inquisition was fooled ... other is "murcela" wich is also a chouriço-like non-meat made out of rice and beans. Sotavento (talk) 06:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Morçela contains blood, often from pigs. Benkeboy (talk) 14:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Alheira tradicionally contained poultry meat, but today most often, if not always, pork is added. And morcela most always contains pork blood. The Ogre (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, everyone knows in Portugal that the traditional "alheira" comes from Jewish practice after Jews were persecuted in Portugal - the fact that one would disguise poultry by giving it a typical pork look only comes to confirm it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.137.168.16 (talk) 14:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Spices and herbs

As the articles says the Portuguese cuisine does not use many different spices. In fact most dishes do not contain any spices. The most commonly used spices are garlic and salt (apart from an abundance of olive oil). Piri-piri is in most cases spread on grilled chicken but perhaps not for many more dishes (except those with tomatoe sauce such as chicken stomach and fish rice). Parsley mostly for sea food dishes and "porco alentejano" which includes clams. Coriander is more common to find in the south, especially in Alentejo, where you can find it in basically all dishes. You can find lots of fennel all over the country. There is a town that is named after the herb, Funchal. Have not found it in any food yet, there is kind of sweet from Madeira made with only sugar and fennel (rebuçado de funcho). Sofar I have not seen saffron used for anything. Instead turmeric is used to give colour to some dishes, especially with rice. Turmeric is in PT called "saffron from India". Cinnamon is only used for desserts (e.g. aletria) and pastries (e.g. pastel de nata). Going to a supermarket you normally find these spices, plus black/red/white/green pepper, paprika powder, basil (small leaved) and oregano. In the north one will see small leaved basil (manjericão) sold in pots. Mostly for the smell. But neither basil nor oregano is not to any large extent in PT cuisine. You can also find curry (normal yellow kind) which I sofar have only encountered in stuffed crabs and shrimps "stew". There are lots of wild herbs used exclusively for infusions (like tea) (in traditional medicine for a large variety of ailments). Benkeboy (talk) 14:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I suppose spices are not very much in use in Portuguese gastronomy... well, it's a matter of comparison, I guess. From my own point of view (completely biased from my own personal experience, I admit!) I rather think that seasoning in Portuguese cuisine (using spies and herbs and other stuff) tends to be a little more strong (if not sometimes a lot more...!) than in most European gastronomies. I may be wrong, though!!! :) Of course if you compare PT cuisine with non-European countries (namely, North Africa, significant parts of Subsaharan Africa, Central and South America, India and Asia) you would considere it non-spiced. Anyway, the question seems not to be one of labels (who's the most spiced?!?), but of acurate description. In that sense you have descibed it well. I would only had some details - black peper is widely used (namely with garlic and salt... and laurel (Bay Laurel)!). Piri piri and other chili peppers are more used than you emply (even if not as you may find in the Americas, Africa, India and Asia - in the last three, by the way, they were introduced by the Portuguese), namely in a huge variety of stews (meat or fish), but also in fried and grilled meat or fish (also simmered fish). Paprika powder is also more used than you seem to state (for instance, it is used in "carne de porco à alentejana"!), as is cumin. Coriander, perhaps more than parsley is used for sea-food (that is why it is used in "carne de porco à alentejana", since it includes clams). In Alentejo they do in fact make use of more herbs, such as "poejo" (Pennyroyal), "segurelha" (Winter savory), "salva" (Common sage), oregano (generally used to season olives) and others. Nutmeg is also used in a variety of dishes around the country, as are cloves, chives, and sometimes tarragon. Fennel, cinnamon, rosemary, spearmint and anise, amongs others, are rarely used except in sweets and pastry - but there are exceptions, for example rosemary is used to season roasted pork and cinnamon may be used for chicken broth. As you said, a lot of other wild herbs are used only for infusion. One should note that seasoning in PT cuisine also tends to include wine (generally white, but also red), lemon/lime and/or wine vinnegar (again, generally white but also red), namely in marination, which is widely used. Other than the omnipresent olive oil, pork lard will often be used when cooking pork and even other meats. The Ogre (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The Ogre: do you know which herb(s) the PT use to diminish the bitter taste of olives? It is something that not just adds flavour, but "treats" the olives.Benkeboy (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I had to research. You see, presentely the "cure" of olives rarely follows tradicional recipes. There are two main ways to treat olives: "natural" cure with brine (salt and water - salmoura in Portuguese); industrial oxidation after a Sodium hydroxide brine treatment (called "american" or "californian" cure), generally done only to ripe (blackish) olives, who are also treated with ferrous gluconate (sometimes with Ferrous lactate) to stabilize and homogeneize the colour. These last ones are, in my opinion, tasteless and with a bad pulp consistency. They are, unfornately, the ones more produced. Now, tradicional salmoura included a wide variety of herbs that helped in the treatment process, chief amongst them was the so called Erva das Azeitonas (Herb of the Olives), also know as Nêveda or Calaminta (Satureja calamintha, also know as Calamintha baetica, Calamintha nepeta, Satureja nepeta, Nepeta calamintha, see Calamintha grandiflora). This was it! Cheers. The Ogre (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"(...)These spices include piri piri (small, fiery chilli peppers) and black pepper, as well as cinnamon, vanilla and saffron."

It may be just me but, as a Portuguese woman from the region of Lisbon, I have _NEVER_ seen vanilla being used except in very rare occasions, such as _some_ recipes of crème brûlée or a very specific dessert... I also have only seen saffron being used to colour rice (so it has a yellowish colour) and I don't use piri-piri but I guess that's a personal choice. We usually prepare olives in our home and we don't use anything but water, salt and oregano (but this is our home mix, I can accept that other people have other recipes for it...)Filipalpg (talk) 09:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Leitão à Bairrada

One of the most known and typical portuguese regional dishes is Leitão à Bairrada, suckling pig.

An article about portuguese cuisine without a reference to it is definitely uncomplete.

Moreover, Rojões à moda do minho and Papas de Sarrabulho are only shown on picture, but not referred on the text. Again, it seems to me there should be a reference to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.138.192.217 (talk) 13:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Expansion

As Portuguese I feel offended by this article, it is really too small!

I urge all Portuguese reading the article to expand it, since it is still so incomplete — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.137.168.16 (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing typical/important dishes

There should be at least some mention of snails, as it is a typical thing to eat on a summer afternoon.
There is also no mention of seafood rice on the seafood section.
Although it is said that the Portuguese introduced tempura to the Japanese, that is no mention of "peixinhos da horta" (a sort of tempura made with green beans), which is the main "tempura" dish cooked in Portugal.Filipalpg 09:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filipalpg (talk • contribs)

Green wine

Verde, actually means raw (as opposed to ripe), not green, in this context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton Olivenbaum (talk • contribs) 16:33, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Questions and comments

1. "Tripas à moda do Porto (tripe with white beans) is said to have originated in the 14th century, when the Castilians laid siege to Lisbon and blockaded the Tagus entrance. The Portuguese chronicler Fernão Lopes dramatically recounts how starvation spread all over the city."

When was this?

2. I wonder if the proper name of the the dish is "bife a casa" or "bife à casa" since the first does not make much sense in Portuguese grammar (it would literally mean beef at home).

3. "Small beef or pork steaks in a roll (pregos or bifanas, respectively) are popular snacks"

Actually, bifanas and pregos are prepared in sandwiches, definitely not in rolls which evoke the image of a soft and rounded bread.

4. Shouldn't "tawny" be capitalized? Since it's a version of Porto wine it is a proper name. Isn't it?

5. I removed the image labeled as "Ice cream as served on the Island of Madeira" because it's completely pointless. It has nothing unique about pastries and desserts of Portugal. If something needs to replace it then it should be a pingo de tocha, fios de ovo or a pastel de Tentúgal.

6. This article should have images of typical dishes like alheira, caldeirada and caracois.

ICE77 (talk) 19:12, 14 July 2019 (UTC)